Talk:George S. Patton

Extensive use of Axelrod

I have noticed an extensive use of Axelrod for referencing some sections, which are grossly incorrect. I may have a looking I get a chance, but if someone has more correct references and can adjust, that works too. Enderwigginau (talk) 02:26, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I found 8 reviews of Axelrod's biography --all are quite favorable. EG: "The ability of the book to succinctly depict Patton is a tribute to Axelrod’s skills as a writer and historian. Three attributes especially stand out throughout the book. First, Axelrod has mastery over his subject material. This is his second book on Patton, following Patton on Leadership (2001), and he truly capitalizes on past research. Second, the author belongs to a select group of writers, who can crisply and quickly come to their points. There is no added “fluff” in Axelrod’s writing style. Finally, Axelrod has done a superb job of selecting key events in Patton’s life that give readers a balanced look at the man. The author reflects on incidents that exposed both the good and not so admired qualities of Patton. Combined these factors give readers a true understanding of the man in minimal terms." [History: Reviews of New Books Jan. 2006] KIRKUS REVIEW (a journal for librarians who buy selected books) said, "Like Patton at his best: [this book is] polished, precise and persuasive." Rjensen (talk) 02:54, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

It’s not a competition to find positive reviews, research any specific point that Axelrod makes and you can find errors. He is very good at generalised information, but not specifics. And he isn’t the only reference used in this article that is wanting. Note the section on II Corps after Kasserine Pass and it states that Patton rebuilt and retrained them, and then had Bradley made his deputy. This is patently false as Bradley was sent to fix II Corps by Eisenhower, and did so before Patton was made commander. Patton then requested Bradley which was allowed provided that Bradley still worked for Ike. Enderwigginau (talk) 11:42, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that citing any good secondary RS is OK here because they provide proper context. However, I would avoid direct citation of Patton himself, unless it was made by a secondary source. My very best wishes (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Antisemitic Views

It is not clear to me in this section whether he was talking about Jews as a race, or just the fact that the Jews were treated worse than others, and thus were in even poorer condition. Jokem (talk) 07:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• Really? This quote clearly shows that General Patton considered the Jews subhuman like the Nazis did, the only thing he disagreed with was the mass genocide of the Jews. In other quotes, he complains about the "semitic and communist influence in the American mainstream media" which "criticizes him and German society". There is also his pre-coldwar quote about Russians as "Asians = barbarians who doesn't value human life." Patton was a psychopath (judging by his treatment of a wounded American soldier whom he beat and wanted to shoot) and an ordinary ideological fascist of the time. But at the same time he was most talented american general of WW2. History is not always "good guys" vs "bad guys" like it on Hollywod, you see. TyronMcLannister (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, Really. Calling him a psychopath is POV. He had a temper and did not tolerate cowardice, this does not rise to the level of mental illness. Jokem (talk) 12:53, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

That was not so much about Jews as about all displaced persons found in German camps [1]. That was bad. My very best wishes (talk) 23:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild (talk · contribs) I am here. All literature on this subject, time period and particular quote (and dozens of others made by Patton specifically about DP Jews) make no debate on who he was referring to when he wrote these words in his diary. Taken out of context without proper sourcing and follow-up leaves the uninformed reader with the personal subjective to define "they" as they would wish to interpret. The NYTimes article does not even remotely refer to this quote (or anything else in the article) to "all" DPs but specifically and only "Jewish DPs". As does this article: [2] Richard Cohen: "If they (the Jewish DP) ...", and this: [3] Jewish Library - Eisenhower quote specifically about the Jewish DPs: "we appear to be treating the Jews as the Nazis treated them except that we do not exterminate them ... One is led to wonder whether the German people, seeing this, are not supposing that we are following or at least condoning Nazi policy." The “military guard” for these Jewish DPs was Patton’s idea. [4] Spartacus Educational: "George Patton received a report written by Earl G. Harrison about the way the Jews in Germany were being treated by the US Army after the war. Patton wrote about the report in his diary on 15th September, 1945" (the very quote in question) Politico: "The orders from above—Eisenhower wanted him to confiscate the houses of wealthy Germans so Jewish survivors could live in them—embittered Patton." Patton wrote: “the displaced sons-of-bitches in the various camps are blooming like green trees,” he wrote a friend. He saw journalists’ criticism of his handling of the Jews and the return of Nazis to high official positions as a result of Jewish and Communist plots. While Eisenhower ordered him to stop “mollycoddling Nazis". Patton remarked that the camps had been clean and decent before the arrival of the Jewish “DPs” (displaced persons), who were “pissing and crapping all over the place.” Eisenhower told Patton to shut up, but he continued his diatribe, telling Eisenhower he planned to make a nearby German village “a concentration camp for some of these goddam Jews.”

Please provide sources that back the claim of the editors in questions who have stated only person opinions about the term "displaced persons" as being "all" in regards to this particular quote. History surrounding the impetus for Patton writing in his diary proves why he wrote the words and to whom he was referring. No source shows Patton referring to any other DP during this time with the same terminology or language as he does when he speaks of the Jewish DPs in letters, diaries and recorded personal conversations. In fact, he glorifies the Nazi prisoners and heralds them as heroes. All historical and expert sources confirm that Patton was clearly referring to Jewish DP. If the quote needs to be accompanied by further sources or addition content to better the understanding for readers, then this can be accomplished. But until an editor can provide reliable and clear sources equal in number that state Patton was not referring to Jewish DPs to those that back the claim that he was in this quote, then it must remain in the section.

The above discussion was / is highly subjective and personal in opinion not relating to this subject (mental illness, pre-cold war). This discussion - as you directed me to via bold reversion - is not a consensus. The fact that the quotes that stand in section currently directly relating to "Patton [referencing the] Jewish survivors in displaced persons camps which he oversaw" proves what his active duty was at the time and who he was referring to. Maineartists (talk) 14:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Couple few things... I did not "direct you to this discussion", just the talk page in general, as BRD suggests you should've started a dicussion instead of reverting that edit again. But if you would rather tack on your comments to this thread, so be it. As for your comments, they are rather lengthy and you didn't provide a tl;dr version, so it'll take me a bit to digest and respond. Meanwhile, the edit you reverted was first added by Harry Sibelius and then first reverted by Hohum before you or I arrived on the scene, so they should be pinged and given an opportunity to take part here. And so with that... we'll go from there. Ttys - wolf 17:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

This appears to be a fuller version of the quote from his diary, commenting on a report written by Earl G. Harrison about the way the Jews in Germany were being treated by the US Army after the war

One of the chief complaints is that the DP (Displaced Person) are kept in camps under guard. Of course Harrison is ignorant of the fact that if they were not kept under guard they would not stay in the camps, would spread over the country like locusts and should eventually have to be rounded up after quite a few of them had been shot and quite a few Germans murdered and pillaged.

The brilliant Mr. Harrison further objected to the sanitary conditions. Again being ignorant of the fact that we frequently have to use force in order to prevent the inmates - Germans, Jews and other people - from defecating on the floor when ample facilities are provided outside.

— https://spartacus-educational.com/2WWpatton.htm

The second phrase suggests he is lumping all DP's together and not singling out Jews for that comment.

I believe this later quote from the same diary entry is far more damning of him though, and is quite specific:

Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being which he is not, and this applies particularly to the Jews who are lower than animals.

However, the "lower than animals phrase" is already used in the section. It seems redundant to use two quotes from the same short diary entry, especially when the existing entry in the article covers his opinion emphatically, while the one recently reverted is one open to question.

(Hohum ^@) 17:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

As I was not the OP nor the editor that reverted him, I addressed the editor who reverted me (without any history summary, by the way, except WP: BLD and a directive to go to the Talk Page). If what you say is correct, then Hohum should have brought the discussion here. I provided more than an adequate history summary (TL:DR) to warrant my revert. That being said, I tacked it onto this discussion because your initial summary directive was lacking in specifics, to say the least. So "going to the Talk Page" and seeing a section on Anti-semitic views and a discussion on DPs; I gathered this was your intent. My apologies if you were merely telling me where to go in general. Regardless, it is unproductive to point out "should haves" when the topic at hand is the above discussion. Lengthy or not, if my summary was not enough to warrant a reversion, then it stands to reason sources with extracted quotes to save time will have to suffice. Let us proceed and not divert from the task at hand. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 17:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC) Maineartists (talk) 17:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

This seems a clear case of why primary sources are a problem. Should we not find a good secondary source that includes the context? --John (User:Jwy/talk) 18:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Jwy: There are plenty of secondary sources. See above. @Hohum (talk · contribs) If there is such a debate as to whether or not Patton was specifically generalizing all DPs in this specific quote, even though related Patton correspondences link exact verbiage to his speech on Jewish DPs solely, then we should provide separate supporting sources to back the claim that Patton spoke derogatory of other DPs at this time (Nazi prisoners, Jewish supporters) separate from what he said specifically about Jewish DPs. It is difficult to know from a personal editorial standpoint who Patton is talking about at specific times in his writings. Here he is speaking of all DPs: "gain being ignorant of the fact that we frequently have to use force in order to prevent the inmates - Germans, Jews and other people - from defecating on the floor when ample facilities are provided outside." But here he is specifically talking about Jewish DPs: "the camps had been clean and decent before the arrival of the Jewish DPs who were “pissing and crapping all over the place.” Likewise, Patton did not say such quotes for all DPs: “the displaced sons-of-bitches in the various camps are blooming like green trees" much like the original quote: "they would not stay in the camps, would spread over the country like locusts", but specifically for Jewish DPs. But I am not allowed to make that connection as personal opinion. It must be backed by reliable secondary sources. When experts and historians in the field specifically draw definitive conclusions that Patton was referring to Jewish DP, then there can be no debate. However, I'm willing to stop the splitting hairs and work for the betterment of the section. I do feel there is more to be said on this topic. If you feel there is too much ambiguity about this particular DP reference, then there is much more that Patton said and wrote about the Jews during this time that was not in his diary. Am I correct that your only objection was that of redundancy within the same source and not of an expansion on the section as a whole? Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 21:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

My position is that using unambiguous quotes supported by reliable secondary sources conveys information the most clearly. Also, yes, using multiple fragments from the same couple of paragraphs of his diary to restate the same information is redundant, and opens up potential accusations of cherrypicking repeatedly from one "event".

Additionally, the best reliable sources would be from educators, historians, etc. Not journalists. (Hohum ^@) 21:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the one who added the following: "If they were not kept under guard, they would not stay in the camps, would spread over the country like locusts, and would eventually have to be rounded up after quite a few of them had been shot and quite a few Germans murdered and pillaged."

When it was reverted by @Hohum, his excuse was, "This is a comment about all displaced persons, which isn't only Jews, and it's unclear whether it's antisemitic, or an attempt to prevent reprisals and deaths."

I actually agree that the quote may not specifically refer to Jews. If he is indeed talking about DPs generally, and not Jews specifically, then I can see your point in suggesting that it does not belong under "Antisemitism". When I added the quote, I believed that it added fuller context as to why Patton made those anti-Jewish remarks, as he believed they would become a danger to civilians if they were to escape.

Where I would take serious issue is your remark that it's unclear whether Patton's desire was "antisemitic" or "an attempt to prevent reprisals and deaths." I do not see why there has to be dichotomy between the two. It's like asking whether someone really dislikes Woody Allen's films, or if they're just antisemitic. Sometimes, the answer is both.

What I do think would be an incredibly useful addition to the "Antisemitism" section, whether my contribution is kept or not, are dates for Patton's antisemitic journal entries. This is especially important, as Patton had remarked in Spring of 1945 on his visit to the Ohrdruf concentration camp on the brutality of the Germans towards their prisoners (in a letter to Eisenhauer, not yet included in this article.) Making clear whether Patton's antisemitic remarks regarding Jewish prisoners preceded or anteceded his visit to Ohrdruf is very important to understanding his thinking. Is it not incredibly valuable to know whether Patton first visited the concentration camps (detailed in this article), decrying the conditions there in a letter to Eisenhauer, (not yet in this article), but later came to blame the conditions in the camps on the prisoners themselves (also not yet in this article), or whether this happened in the reverse order?

I agree that if the quote regarding DPs is not in fact about Jews (though I believe it is, if not specifically and exclusively) it probably does not belong in the antisemitism section, though I think the remark does add value to the article by putting into context Patton's opinions regarding Jews. After all, the quotes used to illustrate Patton's antisemitism in this article are entirely quotes regarding Jews in concentration camps, and not Jews of any other kind. Harry Sibelius (talk) 09:29, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

My 21:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC) reply below still applies. Your logic above might be correct, but it is original research - unless it is cited by non-primary, reliable resource(s). --John (User:Jwy/talk) 16:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, I believe the source I used when I added the quote was a secondary source: a Washington Post article by a Jewish author commenting on Patton's diary entries, and making the assumption that the "Displaced Persons" referred to in the primary-source (Patton's diary) were Jews. Harry Sibelius (talk) 06:54, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not arguing either side of the discussion, just pointing out that ANY interpretation of the primary source should be supported in the article by secondary sources(s) (not just here on this talk page). --John (User:Jwy/talk) 21:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Hohum: Agreed. @Jwy: Agreed. Maineartists (talk) 21:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

The first Patton in America was Robert Patton

Actually, the first Patton in America was James Patton (1692-1755), who arrived in Virginia in 1738 or 1740. He was born in Ireland of a Scottish father. I did not edit this line in the article, because I suspect the Robert Patton referred to is an ancestor of George Patton, and I can't be sure that James Patton is related. Cmacauley (talk) 07:46, 4 December 2022 (UTC)