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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Stoarm (talk | contribs) at 16:49, 13 February 2023 (nice move). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

"discharged a revolver

shouldn't this just read "shot a gun"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A442:581E:1:DDA4:26DD:4CC2:1219 (talk) 09:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed a lot of reputable media covering the ongoing trial have used the term 'fired' in reference to the gun. The district attorned adjacently used the phrase 'fire a projectile', as documented by CNN in the link provided. ~~~~ DovC123 (talk) 18:50, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Awards in lead

In light of recent edits to omit awards of Baldwin in lead, I'm just going to pick 3 actors off the top of my head without checking their article leads: James Earl Jones, Tina Fey and Joel Gray. Completely different actors in their field. I'm betting these articles list awards received as content for their lead sections: listing awards. That's what makes a personal notable for inclusion at WP. This is standard content for actor leads. The awards for Baldwin should remain in lead section. As well, it is never stated in the article or any source that Baldwin gained fame for his appearance on Knots Landing. Maineartists (talk) 22:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alec Baldwin comedian and political activist (removal)

Based on the introductory and the fact that the lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight, do you support, oppose, or oppose partially the removal of political activist and/or comedian from the lede and occupation infobox of this article?

As I've concluded after previous discussions pertaining to what makes a subject a notable comedian, many editors agree that:

  • Appearing in comedy films and being a comedian is not the same thing
  • The usual criteria for being a comedian includes at minimum a period of having done stand-up, or as a stretch, regularly appearing cast members of any sketch comedy show.

He simply isn't notable for being a political activist, I don't think any further argument needs to be made regarding this.

Vote below and specify if required. ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 14:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Partially Oppose. Political activist should be removed, but comedian should remain.
Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 17:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Political activist should not be in the lead, since there is little weight in the article for this label and by assumption in reliable sources. This is according to the MOS:LEADREL guideline which states that
"according to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources."
Comedian is a bit more complicated of a decision. Like ChicagoWikiEditor, I feel that a comedian is someone who does stand-up comedy work or does mostly comedy films and shows. Alec Baldwin is more of a diverse entertainer. He should not be pigeonholed with the comedian label in the lead sentence, but rather the nuance of his work should be explained as is done in the second sentence:
"The oldest of the Baldwin brothers, he is known for his versatile performances, from comic work on television to dramatic roles in film."
--Guest2625 (talk) 02:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps for rhythm and balance of the two lead sentences. A second label word could be "entertainer". Then the lead would begin as:
Alexander Rae Baldwin III (born April 3, 1958) is an American actor and entertainer.[1][2][3] The oldest of the Baldwin brothers, he is known for his versatile performances, from comic work on television to dramatic roles in film.
In this case "entertainer" would represent comic work and actor would represent dramatic work. --Guest2625 (talk) 03:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a concise and accurate solution. Sergeant Curious (talk) 14:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
An improvement over comedian to be sure @Mathglot: @Orson12345: thoughts on this take? ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, entertainer would be more appropriate.
Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 19:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mild support for removal (invited by the bot) He really doesn't fall within the common meaning of "comedian" or "political activist", but he's sort of an edge case on both of those. Since he is very and very visibly political there should be some summary of that aspect in the lead. Which would do a better job that attempting a 2 word nounification of his as a "political activist" Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal - per WP:LEAD. He is famous for being an actor, and the bulk of the article on his work is that. His other works as producer, comic, and activist is of too little WP:WEIGHT for the lead. Much of his acting is in comedies, but that’s not the same thing. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:10, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "actor and entertainer". He does enough non-acting and hosting that it makes sense to include that. --Cerebral726 (talk) 17:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal - per WP:LEAD. He is famous for being an actor, and the bulk of the article on his work is that … Much of his acting is in comedies, but that’s not the same thing per Markbassett. I think "entertainer" is vague to the point of being at best valueless and is potentially misleading. This description is more commonly used of a Sammy Davis Jr / Bruce Forsyth type figure, who sings a bit, tells jokes occasionally and dances a bit and who is known as an all-rounder. Baldwin seems to be partly known for his comedic 'skits' and parodies which are forms of comic roles. Pincrete (talk) 14:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

(edit conflict) User:ChicagoWikiEditor, can you clarify your Rfc question, and/or what support and oppose mean? You voted oppose, and your Rfc question was about "removal". So you have voted to "oppose removal", i.e, "to keep it in the lead". But you claimed earlier that he "isn't notable for being a political activist". So, which is it? Do you want the lead to say he is a political activist, or not? If no one has voted by the time you see this, I suggest you recast the Rfc question as a positive, instead of a negative, as if I understand correctly, it sounds like the current wording may have tripped you up, and may trip up others as well. Mathglot (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Too late; I got an edit conflict because someone else already responded. Not sure what happens now, but I don't see how a closer will be able to evaluate this given its current status. If I were you, I'd withdraw the Rfc (see WP:RFCEND) and start another one right after this one. But it's up to you. Mathglot (talk) 17:27, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathglot I did a brain fart, updated. ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 18:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I’ve changed my vote to “partially opposed”, now that ChicagoWikiEditor has clarified the voting options. Thanks.
Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 18:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I still don't understand. Let me reword how I understand your oppose vote: you want "political activist" to be kept in the article, right? Because you oppose it's removal? Am I reading you right?
Oh, wait: now I see that in this edit you changed your vote from oppose to support. So I guess it needs more clarity because it tripped you up, so why wouldn't it trip up someone else as well? Let's hope no one else gets confused in the same way, but I pity the closer. Mathglot (talk) 18:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Post-ec: yes, that's what I thought from the beginning. Your vote is clear, now; let's hope the question and responses are clear to everyone. Mathglot (talk) 18:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Housekeeping note regarding conversational integrity: my comment above of 18:30, 24 Sep, which may now appear cryptic, was in reply to this comment, later removed without redaction. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:42, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closer: there is one unredacted !vote alteration in the voting section, but as of the timestamp following this comment, no loss of conversational intergrity, so you should be good to go now. Mathglot (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bad RfC. The question should have been posed neutrally with the nominators view separate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. This is one of the most poorly implemented and confusing RfCs I've ever seen, unless its purpose was to confuse participants. In any case, I've restored "comedian" to the infobox as Baldwin is not only a comedian, but a highly accomplished one, particularly through his TV work, which has earned him over a dozen major awards (Emmy, Golden Globe, SAG) for his comedy work. As I said in my edit summary, see List of comedians. If anyone is crazy enough to think that Baldwin should be removed from that list, then they'll also have to remove many, many of the others. And a riot will ensue if that happens. Also, see Comedian of course. The editor who removed it from the infobox said he did it because "He has never done stand up therefore he is not a comedian", which is the huge, classic misunderstanding of the term comedian. One does not need to be a stand-up, or have ever done stand-up, to be notable as a comedian. Baldwin is obviously a highly notable comedian. Stoarm (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your entire rationale is that he is a comedian because you say he is and because another part of Wikipedia says he is, neither of which are sufficient justification for the label here. 2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845 (talk) 16:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone with decent reading comprehension skills can clearly see that was not my "entire rationale." Actually, the entertainment industry, his numerous comedy awards, the article's refs, and of course the definition of comedian say he is. See the thread below that you started for any further input. Stoarm (talk) 07:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Children

Ilaria Catalina Irena was born 9/23/2022, his 8th child including Ireland. OneNitpicker (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NM DA

New Mexico First Judicial District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies Mprieto07 (talk) 18:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(RfC) Should Alec Baldwin be described as a comedian in the first sentence?

I am opening an RfC on this issue because (per my assessment) there is little to no sourcing that justifies calling him a comedian in the lede of this article. Some commenters have noted that while he has played "comic roles", he has not done standup comedy; others have claimed that those roles (30 Rock, SNL Trump) suffice. Please share your views on this topic below. 2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845 (talk) 17:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't go straight for a full-blown thirty-day formal RfC without discussing first and exhausting other options. Also, did you not see the big red error message? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Baldwin most definitely qualifies as a comedian. He has earned over a dozen major awards for his comedy work. Many editors have a huge misunderstanding of what constitutes being a comedian, falsely believing it only applies to those who perform stand-up. The fact is that most comedians are not stand-ups, which is merely a type or subset of the genre of comedy. See comedian and List of comedians. Stoarm (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845: Have you ever edited this article or participated on this talk page under a different IP address or as a registered user? If yes, are you currently blocked from editing? Stoarm (talk) 02:09, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. In response to prior editors, that may be correct, but where's the sourcing? If it's not controversial, it should be easy to find satisfactory sources. 2600:1012:B002:B7C8:CD10:4EC9:57EF:1E01 (talk) 01:22, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A comedian and a stand-up comedian (comic) are two completely separate definitions of profession: "A comic says funny things; a comedian says things funny." Baldwin is not a stand-up comedian. Thus, he is not described as one in the lead. He is, however, a Film Comedian [1] and Television Comedian [2]. Baldwin's co-star Tina Fey never performed stand-up and is not known for doing such, but is called a "comedian". Baldwin is a comedian. Is this really being discussed? Maineartists (talk) 02:43, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, but why does everyone keep providing everything but a proper source? Links to other parts of Wikipedia and rationale/thought processes are appreciated, but not sources! I agree he is not a standup comedian, but I still think "comedian" is a poor descriptor. It's like calling a teacher a "consultant". It's technically correct, but not really ideal 2600:1012:B02C:DD8D:5544:63DC:B0A3:CEE (talk) 04:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee: Alec Baldwin, Season 1 Episode 4 Maineartists (talk) 15:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well played, Maineartists. Stoarm (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's like calling a teacher a teacher. Just as the teaching profession has different types of teachers, the comedy profession has different types of comedians. Stand-up is merely one slice of the comedy pie. Do you seriously not understand this? Because it's starting to appear that no matter what anyone tells or shows you, you may never accept the fact that the term "comedian" is not limited only to those who perform stand-up. But it's not clear if you're truly misunderstanding what we're telling you or if you're intentionally being intransigent. Hopefully, it's the former. Perhaps you should look up the definition of comedian in any reputable dictionary. Baldwin is without question, among other titles, a comedian based on his comedic acting roles, which have earned him many major, individual awards and nominations in the comedy category, including Emmys, Golden Globes, and SAGs. Apparently, you think the entertainment industry is mistaken. Finally, the article is well sourced; the article includes plenty of refs that verify Baldwin's status as a comedian. Read them. We're not going to do the work for you. For the record, no reasonable editor is claiming that Baldwin is not a comedian, unless they are under the flawed belief that stand-up is the only type of comedy. The only legitimate debate has been whether or not Baldwin is notable as a comedian. Clearly, all the major comedy awards and the length of time he's been doing it should settle that dispute. Finally, I have to agree with Maineartists' sentiment: Is this really being discussed? Stoarm (talk) 06:56, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're saying "No" above means that you're not under a current block and haven't edited as someone else? You're an IP hopper, so it makes it difficult for editors to easily see your contributions history. Stoarm (talk) 07:00, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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