Talk:Supremacism

Don't merge with 'triumphalism;' just retain the cross-reference.

As I pointed out over in the 'triumphalism' entry, they are truly two different types of things. 'Supremacism' is a term that is reserved for articulated, conscious doctrines. Supremacism also has an integral political nature, reflected in this entry's tight focus on the entitlement to certain rights as a defining feature of supremacist doctrines. Supremacism definitely belongs in the realm of political dogma or doctrine.

'Triumphalism,' on the other hand, is most frequently an unarticulated--even unconscious--assumption or attitude. It may be, but is not necessarily associated with any political course of action or goal. When we speak of triumphalism, we are discussing a sociological or psychological phenomenon.

In addition, 'Supremacist' is a badge of honor among true supremacists; they willingly describe themselves as supremacists. In contrast, 'triumphalism' is an observer's category. It is an adjective used by some to characterize the actions or attitudes of others--often meant to imply some measure dysfunctional delusion. No one labels him or herself a 'triumphalist;' no one explicitly advocates to increase triumphalism within his or her own group.

Crips and Bloods supremacist Groups?

Is it accurate to list the crips and Bloods aong the list of supremacist groups? to my knowledge the crips and blood are almost never refered to as a black suppemacist groups. Shouldn't then hispanic gangs be included in this list as well? or asian gangs? just because a certain race dominates a gang does not automatically make it a suppremacist group. If no further information can be provided i think they should be removed.

--The Crips is a street gang which originated in Los Angeles, California in the late 1960s. During the early 1970s, the gang grew and branched out to other parts of Los Angeles County. These new subsidiary or realigned existing gangs were known as sets, and they used the term Crips in their individual gang name.--

exert taken fron know-gangs.com there is no mention of the Crips being a suppremacist gang.

-The gang is largely composed of African Americans, but is multiracial in many cities (e.g. New York), where "satellite" Crip gangs are present. The gang has an intense rivalry with the Bloods. They are also known to feud with Chicano gangs.-

Taken form wikipedia article on crips. i gues the crips are a multiracial black supremacist group.

Phobias in See Also section?

Since a phobia is not necessarily a sign of supremacism, should phobia-related See Also links be in here?

User:Jesusmahdimessiahqin edit

I understand and empathize with the motivation behind this recent edit, but it probably does not quite fit the tone of Wikipedia’s mission statement, so I suggest some kind of dialogue with the author (and at least one other editor more experienced than I) to rephrase the text in a way that both the author and Wikipedia standards can agree upon. Blu Moon (talk) 02:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Facts are okay by me. The Turkish purge targeted a religious supremacist ideology that infested and rendered its government dysfunctional and self destructive. The issue is covered right here on Wikipedia with no objections. Jesusmahdimessiahqin (talk) 14:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Jesusmahdimessiahqin: You have to follow Wikipedia's policies. We do not add our own comments and we do not use other Wikipedia articles as sources. Anything you add in violation of those policies will be removed sooner or later, so you are wasting your time adding them. What you have to do is find a reliable published source and report what it says (not comment about what it says). Then there are issues of WP:WEIGHT to consider, since this is a general article about supremacism, not an editorial on modern examples you think are important. Zero^talk 02:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Antisemitism

@User:GenoV84 Hi. I'm not sure what "newcomer" means, but I have been editing Wikipedia for years. I previously added notices to the talk pages for the Judaism and Jewish History WikiProjects regarding the bias and antisemitism within this article. The article as it exists promotes anti-Jewish falsehoods, such as that Judaism is a proselytizing religion. Noahides are simply not converts to Judaism. The article also presents the views of certain individuals as if they are neutral and inarguable facts, rather than opinions. Three of the sources are simply the opinions of Rachel Feldman or reference her opinions. The fact that the section inserts terms such as "goy" and "gentile" for no reason and without context is shocking, the sort of thing I normally see from neo-Nazis and white supremacist ideologues. The claim that non-Jews are "usually referred to as "Gentiles" or goyim" (referred to by whom, I might ask?) is a claim without any source. The section needs to be rewritten to avoid these glaring problems. These are serious flaws. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

That part of the article is very poorly written, though not all your criticisms are valid. "Proselytization" does not mean "proselytization to become Jews", it means "proselytization to become Noahides". I removed the word. I also removed the word "goyim", even though it is the most common Hebrew word for non-Jews. Also, Rachael Feldman is highly qualified and has a book on the subject soon coming out with Rutgers University Press. In particular, her journal article is a fine source. Further criticism should focus on whether the text follows the sources, not on whether you like it. Zero^talk 08:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bohemian Baltimore: I don't know how much time you have been here on Wikipedia, but deleting well-sourced, topically relevant informations with reliable references as you did ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5]) because you personally don't like the content of those sources qualifies as WP:DISRUPTIVE and possibly as an attempt to WP:CENSORSHIP. Writing down what the academic, reliable references and the Jewish–Israeli newspaper Haaretz state is not a "flaw", it's simply what we are supposed to do here on this project. I suggest you to check the cited academic sources before opening a section titled "Antisemitism" against me, which could be considered a violation of the WP policy WP:AGF and also as a form of personal attacks, considering that I have contributed to many Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia over the years (for example, see the articles Elohim, God in Judaism, Hebrew Bible, Yahwism, Géza Vermes, Emanuel Tov, Kabbalah, Antisemitism in Islam, etc.). GenoV84 (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no "personal attack", nor an assumption of bad faith, nor an accusation "against you" that you are antisemitic. That seems like an assumption on your part. If that is the impression I gave, I apologize. The text itself is deeply flawed, inflammatory, and misleading. In doing so, this conveys antisemitism to the reader - regardless of who wrote the text or why. It badly needs context and nuance to avoid conveying harmful notions of what Jews believe. This can be done. It can be mentioned that the entire section is based around Rachel Feldman's views (including the Haaretz article that also mentions her). Currently she's not mentioned. The "proselytize" language should be avoided because it causes confusion for the lay reader who may not be familiar with Judaism's intricacies. The claim that (Jews?) "typically" refer to non-Jews as "goyim" is lurid and baseless. I'm also concerned that the casual no-context language about "racism" and "racial superiority" may falsely convey to the lay reader the notion that Jews are a race. Jews are not a race. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you about the attribution of this academic research on Noahidism to Rachel Feldman, and I restored the latest changes performed by the editor Zero0000 ([6]), which had removed the term "goyim" from the section on Jewish supremacism ([7]). Anyway, Feldman's research doesn't convey the entire section on Jewish supremacism, only the second paragraph; the first one about Jewish supremacism is focused on the definitions and examples provided by Ilan Pappé and Joseph Massad, while the third one is focused on the Religious Zionist Party.

The concept of race is a form of human categorization, scientists know that races don't exist. However, I would also point out to the very first pages of Feldman's research on the Noahide community in the Philippines (2018); she reports that the modern Noahide movement was founded by Orthodox Jewish and Religious Zionist rabbis from Israel in the 1990s, who have decidedly instructed the Filipino Noahides to believe that they are racially inferior to Jews and are forbidden from reading Jewish scriptures and performing Jewish rites and customs, as well as to support their messianic, supremacist movement in order to rebuild the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem:

Today, nearly 2,000 Filipinos consider themselves members of the ‘‘Children of Noah,’’ a new Judaic faith that is growing into the tens of thousands worldwide as ex-Christians encounter forms of Jewish learning online. Under the tutelage of Orthodox Jewish rabbis, Filipino ‘‘Noahides,’’ as they call themselves, study Torah, observe the Sabbath, and passionately support a form of messianic Zionism. Filipino Noahides believe that Jews are a racially superior people, with an innate ability to access divinity. According to their rabbi mentors, they are forbidden from performing Jewish rituals and even reading certain Jewish texts. These restrictions have necessitated the creation of new, distinctly Noahide ritual practices and prayers modeled after Jewish ones. Filipino Noahides are practicing a new faith that also affirms the superiority of Judaism and Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel, in line with the aims of the growing messianic Third Temple Movement in Jerusalem.

GenoV84 (talk) 23:01, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

References
References

Those Jewish readers and non-Jewish readers who are knowledgeable about Judaism and halakha may understand these finer distinctions, but that may not be the case for the general Wikipedia readership. In the interest of clarity, and to avoid promoting misconceptions about Judaism, I think we should just avoid the "proselytism" language altogether. I'm not questioning Feldman's scholarship, but I am questioning why an entire section is based around her views but never mentions her. The paragraph about "Jewish supremacism" mentions Ilan Pappé and Joseph Massad. What does "most common" or "typically" mean here? The article conveys a baseless, unsourced idea that it is the norm for Jews to refer to non-Jews as "goyim", which is dubious and irresponsible at best. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:43, 1 March 2023 (UTC)