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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cogitamus Credimus (talk | contribs) at 07:21, 15 March 2023 (→Second paragraph of "origins" disupute: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Article review

I have reviewed the article and do not see systemic issues of a level requiring a maintenance tag at the top. I did remove an entire section about a petty lawsuit that settled for $350,000. The page of text about this lawsuit violated WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV. [1] Otherwise, if there are remaining issues of concern to anyone, please list them specifically and I or others will try to fix them. If you feel a maintenance tag is needed, do try to be as specific as possible. Affix the tag to specific statements or sections whenever feasible. Jehochman Talk 14:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jehochman, thanks for the cleanup. Being the editor who initially tagged that section, I agree with significantly reducing it. However, given the news coverage spanning over a decade, I think at least a sentence or two about the Denver case is due. Are you opposed to a sentence or two about it being added back to the article? Freelance-frank (talk) 13:27, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead. Let's try and see how it reads. Jehochman Talk 13:31, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jehochman Added back a summary of this material. I omitted some detail to avoid bloating this coverage. If further demonstration of weight is needed, I stumbled across additional sources covering this topic that I could include. Freelance-frank (talk) 15:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, I am rating this C class, not B, because it appears to have gaps in coverage, could use better sourcing (still heavy on primary sources), and some sections might be pruned further. Some of the content rambles. This article has identifiable problems, but they do not appear so severe that an orange maintenance tag would be warranted above the lead. Jehochman Talk 14:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you could highlight any sections in particular for pruning or gaps in coverage, I would appreciate that and would work on those issues. Freelance-frank (talk) 13:27, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first obvious thing is that there's a 1970's section and a 1990's section but no 1980's section. Either that should be created, or the history should be organized into broader categories than decades. Second thing is to reduce the reliance on primary sources. There are something like 85 citations to adl.org. Ideally some of these would be changed to cite secondary sources, or at least secondary sources would be added to reinforce them. I've tagged a few instances as examples with {{primary-inline}}, but there are probably many more examples. If you can address those two issues this article might rate B class, or even better. Jehochman Talk 13:41, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More context needed re Leo Frank

The article states the following;

"The Anti-Defamation League was founded by B'nai B'rith as a response to attacks on Jews; the then recent contentious conviction of Leo Frank was mentioned by Adolf Kraus when he announced the creation of ADL."

How it read to me

I did not understand the statement because I did not have the particulars of Leo Frank without drilling down. In my opinion more context is needed about Leo Frank.

Contention with the word Contentious

A single world does not provide me (as a reader) with a better understanding; perhaps more context is needed. Flibbertigibbets (talk) 19:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Implemented change

"The Anti-Defamation League was founded by B'nai B'rith as a response to attacks on Jews. The conviction of Leo Frank for the murder of a 13 year old, with allegations from the press that antisemitism contributed to his conviction, was mentioned by Adolf Kraus when he announced the creation of ADL.[8][9]"

This way a reader knows why Adolf Kraus was relevant to the article. Flibbertigibbets (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Section "Editing its own Wikipedia page"

I'm just a copy editor, not an expert on Wikipedia policy, but this recently added good-faith section seems to me to fail on notability (WP:N) and due emphasis (WP:DUE) grounds. As I read it, notability requires independent, verifiable sources such as outside journalism articles. But this topic almost by definition doesn't matter to anybody but Wikipedia editors and isn't likely to be widely covered outside of Wikipedia -- that is, isn't likely to have any impact on the world (WP:IMPACT). In terms of its importance, it is clearly not comparable to the other 3 subsections in the Controversies section.

I've seen a lot of Wikipedia articles that include egregious, cringeworthy self-promotion, but I've never seen a similar section elsewhere, even though this must be a fairly common issue. It seems to me that the remedy for it is that any biased content is challenged and removed, not that it becomes lasting Wikipedia content in and of itself. Surely this must have been addressed somewhere in policy docs so we don't have to reinvent the wheel here; does anyone know of such a policy? I can't think of a way to search.

In the absence of a strong rationale for keeping the section, I propose that it be deleted. Gould363 (talk) 00:00, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gould363Hi, I added the section. It was considered noteworthy enough for the The Forward, a 125-year-old Jewish-interest publication, to report on it, so it obviously holds "notability" not solely for Wikipedia editors, but for the Jewish community as well, at the very least.
"Neutral Point of View says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source." I have adequately reproduced the accusations against the ADL on this matter, as well as the ADL's defense. It is true that, as of now, I only have a single source. It does not appear to be on Wikipedia's list of sources, prohibited or otherwise, and the article is obviously very well-sourced, so I don't think it's veracity can be called into dispute. I think the article reports on the subject very neutrally, addressing both sides, and I believe I have reproduced that adequately in my reproduction of the information.
Could you explain to me what you mean by "outside journalism articles", as well as be more specific regarding what Wikipedia guidelines that you think the inclusion of this story may violate? Harry Sibelius (talk) 10:07, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Harry. Agreed, the Forward is a more than reputable source of outside journalism (albeit one not entirely above the fray), so the material passes on that criterion. (Or does the criterion call for multiple sources?) I'm just trying to put a finger on why it still doesn't seem like normal Wikipedia content to me. I keep coming back to: it seems to me to fail the 'undue emphasis' test (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight). It is in no way of comparable importance to "New antisemitism concept", "Armenian genocide denial", or "Park51 Community Center opposition". Giving it a section of comparable weight to those places undue weight on it.
I'll poke around and see if I can find some guidance. Gould363 (talk) 03:24, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is important from the perspective of transparency and potential misinformation. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:27, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This does seem undue as a full subsection, and probably at all. Coverage in a Wikipedia article should be proportionate to the level of coverage, and a single article about this incident is not much for the ADL, a high-profile organization. It should also be considered whether this incident is likely to be significant to a reader in the future, partially indicated by whether this incident is ever mentioned again by RS. At current level of coverage demonstrated, this seems best excluded, or at most summarized in a single sentence. Freelance-frank (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, judging from the scale of it, I think current level of coverage is correct, Huldra (talk) 23:13, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When you say "scale of it", what do you mean? Freelance-frank (talk) 23:53, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
COI editing happens all the time; random people editing about their friends, or jobs. This is different: a NGO which actually train its employers (1+8) to edit wikipedia. This reminds me of CAMERA campaign at Wikipedia, Huldra (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But the cited article is just one cited article, and it frames this issue more on Wikipedia dynamics of this COI edge case than as relevant to the ADL itself. This seems to be a case where an on-wiki kerfuffle is relevant to us as editors, but for which there is insufficient RS coverage to support inclusion, especially when weighed against topics with greater depth of coverage. Freelance-frank (talk) 23:58, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you say that the Forward article is mostly concerned with Wikipedia? The Forward is a Jewish publication, concerned mostly with Jewish issues, not those related to Wikipedia, and the ADL is a Jewish organization. The Forward is reporting on it because it is of interest to Jews, not just Wikipedia editors. Harry Sibelius (talk) 05:16, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that the Forward article is just a single article. Wikipedia coverage of the ADL should be representative of the large mass of ADL coverage out there in the world's reliable sources. Gould363 (talk) 16:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. That is one half of the issue with this sourcing. The other half is that the Forward coverage is more about Wikipedia's view of the ADL than it is about the ADL itself. In the Signpost blurb about this article, Smallbones summarizes the article as "recounting a March–April discussion at the conflict-of-interest noticeboard." I think that's exactly correct. The article primarily discusses how Wikipedia editors tried to grapple with the unusual COI issue, and this is part of a broader context in which communities often find Wikipedia's interpretations of their behaviors unusual and interesting. But 1) that is only adjacent to what is directly relevant to the ADL directly, 2) if this is relevant at all (I think not with this level of coverage), we don't need every single detail, and 3) there is no evidence of controversy beyond the COI noticeboard discussion. Freelance-frank (talk) 15:47, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not an expert on Wikipedia policy, but as I read it, there is nothing prohibited about a nonprofit training its employees to edit Wikipedia; see Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide#Practices not regarded as COI. In Freelance-frank's words, it's at best an edge case. The only thing they did that was wrong was edit the ADL page itself without disclosure. And the remedy for that is that the interests are disclosed and any questionable edits are reviewed, which has presumably already happened. Gould363 (talk) 16:14, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just because I was pinged above I'll add a few random thoughts here
  • This discussion shouldn't be about "notability" which applies to the subject of the article itself - the ADL is definitely notable.
  • WP:Due is the main question here, but that's a matter for consensus to decide. IMHO the ADL is about a lot of things, and there are certainly some controversies - this little controversy might add a very small part to those controversies. Or maybe not.
  • Forward is a good source here - or whenever it's reporting on (American?) Judaism, but there are often better sources if it is reporting on other topics. Similarly, I'm egotistical enough to say that The Signpost is a good source when (as always) we're reporting on Wikipedia or the WMF. There are likely 2-3 stories in the press each month about issues regarding Wikipedia that are important to the general public, but we sometimes report the same stories better, occasionally much better. Cite the best source available! When in doubt use 2 stories.
  • Did the ADL commit a major Wiki-crime here? No, in general they can be of great service by editing Wikipedia. I'll suggest they don't cite themselves so often though. And they shouldn't be editing this article - they're just likely to make minor edits that have minor POV problems, e.g. they might push controversies down the page where fewer people will see them, or use vocabulary that shows a pro-ADL POV. And they will just do this naturally without intending to. Leave well enough alone.
  • Should Wikipedians report in articles about companies that abuse Wikipedia's editing processes? I think so, but let's not do it in minor cases. And we need to make every attempt to avoid our own natural biases. But if it's important enough, who else is more qualified to report paid editing abuse? Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

. Smallbones, I am confused. Are you talking about the Jewish Defense League (JDL) or the Anti-Defamation League (ADL)? These are dramatically different organizations. Cullen328 (talk) 07:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 Whoops, that was a very bad typo!!! I've corrected my mistake above by changing all my JDLs to ADLs. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:07, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

typo -- cannot fix myself as page is protected

"ballot successful initiative"

should be "successful ballot initiative"

2603:6081:1500:32B8:9961:22A:84D5:3723 (talk) 07:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second paragraph of "origins" disupute

This is how the paragraph had appeared as of 20:19, 11 March 2023:

"The ADL was founded by B'nai B'rith as a response to attacks on Jews. The conviction of Atlanta B'nai B'rith President Leo Frank, for the murder of a 13 year old was met with allegations from the press that antisemitism contributed to his conviction. The role that antisemitism played in regards to Frank's conviction was mentioned by Adolf Kraus when he announced the creation of ADL."

@Cogitamus Credimus changed it, in the revision as of 16:35, 13 March 2023, to:

"The ADL was founded by B'nai B'rith as a response to attacks on Jews. The conviction of Atlanta B'nai B'rith President Leo Frank for the murder of his 13-year-old employee was met with allegations from Jewish press that antisemitism contributed to his conviction. The alleged role that antisemitism played in regards to Frank's conviction was mentioned by Adolf Kraus when he announced the creation of ADL."

He added the detail that Mary Phagan was an employee of Frank's, and that the allegations came specifically from the Jewish press, not the press in general.

@Abinavmishra changed it back, citing Wikipedia:ALLEGED. Abinavmishra did not explain why he was citing "Alleged", and I haven't been able to figure out why, as it doesn't seem at all relevant to the issue.

Furthermore, when I checked the source (there are two; Moore, I was able to access, as it is on Internet Archive, while Chanes, I could not), there didn't seem to be anything about "allegations" of Frank's innocence from the press. In fact, it seemed to state the exact opposite: that members of B'nai B'rith accused the press of encouraging Frank's conviction. It seems that the source was saying that the press alleged that Frank was guilty, not innocent, according to Moore. The only defenders of Frank listed in the Moore source were other B'nai B'rith members, who were claiming about the "antisemitic" lies of the press.

Considering that the source used was actually contrary to both revisions, I changed it to:

"The ADL was founded by B'nai B'rith as a response to attacks on Jews. The conviction of Atlanta B'nai B'rith President Leo Frank for the murder of his 13-year-old employee was met with allegations from Frank's fellow B'nai B'rith members that antisemitism had contributed to his conviction. The alleged role that antisemitism played in regards to Frank's conviction was mentioned by Adolf Kraus when he announced the creation of ADL."

I only changed it to what the source already used said. If the other source, which I don't have access to, says something different, then that is an issue in itself, because it would mean that the sources contradict each other: the press can't both have been entirely responsible for Frank's murder conviction, and at the same time the driving force behind claims of his innocence. The revision I made is just an objective retelling of what is already in the source, a source I didn't even add.

In the note attached to my revision, I wrote: "Not sure why you undid this revision. I do not see what "WP:Alleged" has to do with this edit. Of the two sources included, only one is currently accessible to me (Moore), and it seems to support that it was primarily Jewish leaders who complained, and seems to affirm that it was not the press generally, but Jews specifically. If you disagree, please bring it up in the talk-page."

However, @Llll5032 reverted the edit again, without posting on the talk-page first, writing: "rv, cited sources do not appear to support that interpretation, see WP:RS; a new interpretation would require a new source."

I do not know what he could possibly mean by this. The source does not say that the press alleged that Frank was innocent. It says the exact opposite: it alleged that he was guilty. The only defenders of Frank mentioned in the source are several other B'nai B'rith members, who blamed the press alone for his conviction. I do not understand how @Abinavmishra and @Llll5032 could misinterpret this, but maybe they can explain here. Harry Sibelius (talk) 03:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We go by what published RS say. See WP:OR: "Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." If you cite RS carefully and summarize only what RS say, without any new analysis, then your edits are less likely to be reverted. Perhaps you could find more sources about the ADL in the Leo Frank article. Llll5032 (talk) 06:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where do you think that it says in either of the sources that the press at the time alleged that Frank was innocent? Please quote the source. Harry Sibelius (talk) 06:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read this section of the Leo Frank article? Llll5032 (talk) 07:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A Wikipedia article is not a source for another Wikipedia article. The edits in question on the ADL Wikipedia article actually align with the existing sources for the statements. Right now, the sources do not actually support the statements for which they are provided and in fact actually support the proposed edits by @Harry Sibelius. Thus, if your objection to the edits is about sources, then it can be dismissed. Cogitamus Credimus (talk) 07:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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