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April 26

What happens to refugees who reach Europe by boat

In USA, the South Americans and Mexicans can cross border and settle with their family as almost all have relatives in USA. Legal migrants can get a home for rent and bring wives from his origin country.

I am asking about the Africans, Afghans, Moroccans who reach Spain, France, Italy, UK as asylum seeker or illegal migrant.First every adult human needs a job, then they will need a place to stay. After that they need to get married, have kids and then purchase a property. Asylum seekers stay in temporary tents, plastic homes. I think government or some organisations give them food to eat. If the illegal migrant and asylum seeker get citizenship, then are they allowed to bring their wife, children from their native country? All will not be able to find local European woman as wives. If they came as an unmarried teen, then after they get asylum, can they marry their country girl and bring them to Europe? And if they get citizenship ot their asylum application is approved, then he has to start a family. Most videos I have seen is that those who cross to Europe are men. Grace Ilunga (talk) 04:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The extremely problematic Dublin Regulation causes a lot of the problems, since it decrees that such people must receive sanctuary from the first EU state they arrive at, or not at all. The Dublin Regulation is pretty much a dead letter in Greece, which has never really seen itself as a country suitable for immigration, and which is suffering from an EU-caused economic depression (not to mention that there are historic and cultural reasons why Greece is quite unlikely to welcome a drastic increase in Muslim inhabitants). The situation in Italy is not as catastrophic as in Greece, but immigration fatigue is affecting Italian politics. AnonMoos (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Migrants can apply for asylum in the UK from their home countries, but many more asylum-seekers arrive here from EU countries, often trafficked in small boats across the English Channel. This was a major issue in the Brexit referendum ("take control of our borders"), but the problem has worsened since. Illegally arriving migrants are sometimes accomodated in hotels [3], or in detention centres [4] sometimes likened to prisons [5]. Those who fail to achieve asylum status are deported. Those who are granted asylem are given temporary housing and other benefits to enable them to settle; see Asylum and refugee resettlement in the UK. Government attempts to curb this growing problem include the bizarre Rwanda asylum plan which is currently the subject of litigation. Alansplodge (talk) 12:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's complicated.

Handling of asylum seekers/illegal immigrants isn't handled centrally in the EU, but once they're in, they can travel freely all over the area, as the borders are open. There are two kinds of illegal immigrants: those who seek safety and those who seek money. Those who seek safety are reluctantly welcomed. There are quite some women and families among those. Those who seek money, who are mostly men, are usually rejected, but that doesn't necessarily mean they get send back. Their home country has to accept them, but those countries can make more money by having some of their people in Europe and send money to their families.

Concerning families, people are under no obligation to start one and the government won't help anyone start a family (except if the reason for not starting one is purely medical; then the government may pay for medical aid). Middle Eastern or North African men cannot all find European women to marry, but they don't want that anyway. Those men find European women too liberal/progressive, the European women find the Middle Eastern men too conservative. The cultural difference is pretty big. Fetching a wife from their home country is viewed with suspicion, as it allows for fraud. Once a man gets a permanent residency permit in Europe, he could go to his home country and marry somebody (often some cousin), then take her with him to Europe. A few years later, she gets a permanent residency permit on her own, they can divorce and fetch a new spouse from their country of origin. I think the current plan is only to allow family reunions if the couple was married a couple of years before one requested asylum. PiusImpavidus (talk) 14:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that right-wing politicians, and increasingly also centrist politicians, portray migrants seeking to avoid starvation as "fortune hunters". --Lambiam 16:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lambiam -- the more usual term is "Economic migrant" (not "fortune hunter")... AnonMoos (talk) 23:54, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is the politically correct term, but right-wing politicians are not known for their fastidious use of politically correct terminology.^[6] --Lambiam 11:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I find that term "politically correct" is better replaced by "non-asshole" and is usually accurate. So, the non-asshole term is "economic migrant". --Jayron 32 12:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As with most things, there is no black or white. The largest national group arriving illegally in the UK are from Albania, often young males [7]. Albania is neither a war-zone nor suffering from famine nor any natural disaster, but is not exactly prosperous. So "economic migrant" fits the bill there, whichever side of the political spectrum you inhabit. Alansplodge (talk) 21:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some points from a Spanish point of view. There are the non-accompanied minors (MENAs in Spanish) from Northern Africa. As minors, they cannot be forcefully returned to Morocco, so they become wards of a autonomous community of Spain until they become 18. Since some of them lack/destroy documentation, they may not be actual minors. Forensic techniques like X-rays of the hands are used to guess their age. Since they are old enough to travel alone and too old to learn Spanish languages as bilinguals, their integration can be limited. Once they become 18, I think they can stay in Spain, but being under-schooled and lacking most kinds of capital, they have it raw. Anti-immigration sides link them to petty crime.

Spain has an informal economy, probably as big as Italy. Thus, an irregular immigrant could be exploited for work illegally in a variety of sectors. It is a crime for employers, but only if they are caught. There is also the possibility of crime, begging or other lumpenproletariat.

Asylum seekers may be granted temporary or permanent asylum rather than citizenship. Meanwhile there are religious and secular charities that can help them (Comisión Española de Ayuda al Refugiado comes to mind). The different levels of the state may help these charities. If not, there are still the lumpen options already stated.

The majority of illegal/irregular immigrants are people from Ibero-America who overstay their visas. Those who risk death across the sea or crashing a land border are a minority but get more news coverage and, being African or Asian are more visible.

For those who crash the Melilla or Ceuta fences or cross the Strait of Gibraltar or the Atlantic, if they are not instantly sent back to Morocco (devolución en caliente), they are held in overcrowded Centro de Internamiento de Extranjeros for a while. They can apply for asylum. After some weeks/months, they may be notified of expulsion to their country of origin (but only if it is known). Since the return requires the collaboration of the destination government, they may be left to their own devices in Spain. Then they can resort to lumpen survival, contact family or friends in Europe or move through the Schengen area for better opportunities.

There have been some mass regularization processes for those who can prove residing in Spain for years, but that is a gamble depending on the current government being too overwhelmed with irregular residents.

The Spanish government has been criticized for being stingy with asylum. People who should get asylum under international law end up as illegal residents or legal residents subject to the economic needs of the country.

There is also the way of naturalization, but I don't know if it is open for illegal residents. Maybe by marriage.

Bringing family in is legal only for legal residents fulfilling some requirements.

There is also the way of the Spanish government granting citizenship by decree but is limited to high-profile cases like Mario Vargas Llosa or the recent Nicaraguan dissidents who lost their Nicaraguan nationality.

Note I provide no references. I may be wrong in several aspects.

--Error (talk) 17:59, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Illegal employment is a crime for the employer even if not caught, of course. Insufficient enforcement and low punishments/penalties, however, often still make it an economically viable proposition. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Knapptryckarna

Hello, i am trying to write an article about a minor swedish political party called Knapptryckarna, but i can´t find any good sources. The only one i´ve found is their official website, which would probably include biased information. Does anyone know where to find good sources? I´ve written all i could find on User:KaptenPotatismos/sandbox

~~~~ KaptenPotatismos (talk) 08:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't wish to be cruel, but a "minor swedish political party" for which you can't find any good sources is probably going to fail any WP:NOTABLE test. You may well be wasting your time over Basquiat-esquethis. According to your stub they only polled "5493 votes, which was 0.08% of the votes". Do remember that you can use foreign language sources (including Swedish) if no English language sources are available. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Europeiska arbetarpartiet, which received 15 votes in 2022, has an article on the Swedish Wikipedia, though. --Lambiam 16:05, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But Knapptryckarna hasn't made it into the Swedish WP, which perhaps says something about its notability, or lack thereof. Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It suggests to me that this party isn't notable for being obscure. I second the suggestion that you try Swedish sources, but if you can't find AT LEAST 3-4 sources in Swedish then how notable *is* it really, hmm? Elinruby (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd ask what "Basquiat-esquethis" is, but suspect it's non-notable. —Tamfang (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is a 2011 book by (former) Swedish politician Anne-Marie Pålsson called "Knapptryckarkompaniet" ("button presser company") that criticises the Swedish political system. So I'm guessing that the Knapptryckarna is a relatively new protest and/or joke party. There's a good chance that it has little to no notability. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Curiously, there's a British Scout campfire song called "Hello, my name's Joe and I work in a button-pushing factory". [8] I never realised that it was political satire :-) Alansplodge (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

His Holiness Francis Church

We have an article about St. Francis Church, Abu Dhabi, part of the Abrahamic Family House. Looking at this video: https://wam.ae/en/details/1395303130109 at the 1:03 mark, it seems that the official name should actually be His Holiness Francis Church, which is somehow also mentioned in our article. My questions are: 1) what is the real official name of this Church? 2) is it really named after Francis of Assisi or to Pope Francis, as the terms His Holinessseem to suggest? Thank you! 82.52.31.81 (talk) 16:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly if a Google search didn't tell you, the best way to find out is to ask the church directly. It's not like we're seeking some ancient obscure knowledge here - the people who made the decision are an email away. --Golbez (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The National Catholic Register goes with "St. Francis of Assisi Church" [9], but their webpage includes a link to the church's own Twitter page, which says "His Holiness Francis Church". Make of that what you will. Perhaps the best place for this discussion is the Wikipedia article's talk page. Alansplodge (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Apostolic Vicariate of Southern Arabia also says "St. Francis Church". [10] Alansplodge (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So does the website of the Abrahamic Family House. The Arabic name كنيسة القديس فرنسيس seen on the wall in the video also simply means St. Francis Church, that is, a church dedicated to a saint whose name is "Francis". The Hebrew name הכנסיה של הוד קדושתו פרנסיס, on the other hand, does translate as "The Church of His Holiness Francis". I think the English and Hebrew names on the wall are the result of translation errors. --Lambiam 06:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect there is some translation issues with terms like "Saint" and "Holiness" in these cases; they are similar enough in meaning that wires may get crossed along the way. --Jayron 32 12:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many languages (Latin, Italian, French, Spanish, German, Greek, Hebrew, Japanese, Russian, ...) use the same word for saint as for holy [person]. The difference between Hebrew קדוש (kadósh) and קדושתו (kdusható) is about as pronounced as that between holy and his holiness in English. Given the similarity between Arabic and Hebrew, the most plausible chain is Arabic → English → Hebrew, in which the Hebrew translator faithfully translated the incorrect English. --Lambiam 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article could maybe get a clarification, but for the title of the article- see WP:COMMONNAME. David10244 (talk) 05:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, churches are never named after living persons. And it isn't even enough to be dead; you have to have been canonized as a saint. Secondly, popes are never referred to as "His Holiness <name>" but as "His Holiness Pope <name>". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:53, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you don't have to be a saint, or even a Servant of God, Venerable, or Blessed: for example, John Keble Church, Mill Hill. Although Keble is commemorated with a Lesser Festival in the CoE, that's as far as his saintliness goes. MinorProphet (talk) 21:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected, to the extent that your revelation renders my post less than perfect. (* sob *) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:34, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Although the example quoted is Anglican; I'm not sure that they've been playing from the same rule-book as the Catholics for a few centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 09:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm damn sure they haven't. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:56, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed (see English understatement) :-) Alansplodge (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would not be surprised to find that the English translation of the name of an entity in Arabia does not perfectly follow English conventions. —Tamfang (talk) 13:56, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Jean Michel Basquiat

Some years ago there was a thread on these venerable pages dealing with eponyms / their adjectival forms, eg Shakespearean or Kafkaesque. If memory serves me right, there was even a rule of sorts proposed. Of course (see memory), this rule has evaporated from my mind.
So, what seems preferable: Basquiat-esque, Basquiat-ean, Basquiat-ine, Basquiat-ic or some other option? I am labouring on a 3D analysis of Jean Michel Basquiat´s formal language - primarily his linear constructs achieved by oil sticks, and a few notes on my interpretative experiments may be useful...
All of these alternatives seem painfully clumsy to me.
Thank you for any advice and suggestions.

Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the thread you recall is "-ian vs. -esque" from 2010 (if so, it's a considerable feat of memory). This quotes "CLD" (possibly the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary?) thusly:

-esque is 'like or in the style of someone or their work', while -ian is 'connected with or belonging to the stated place, group or type'. -ic is just 'used to form adjectives'.

Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's a reasonable set of criteria. "Newtonian", "Einsteinian", and "Abelian" are all regularly used terms for those physicists/mathematicians and the characteristics of their best-known works. Likewise "Churchillian" for that statesman's oratorical style. --174.89.12.187 (talk) 21:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While not criteria, -esque suffixed to a person's name means specifically "in the style or manner of" that person. It would be grotesque to refer to Newtonian dynamics as Newtonesque dynamics. --Lambiam 06:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam Who is "grot" and what is his or her style? David10244 (talk) 05:42, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Like literally everything else in language, there really isn't a formal way these things happen, there's no body that decides which of the plethora of acceptable suffixes we attach to a person's name to describe something related to that person, so while something may be Orwellian or Kafkaesque, they are almost never Orwellesque or Kafkaian. Why? No reason. Language grows organically and somewhat arbitrarily and some word forms simply "take hold" in the popular usage for no particular reason (though that doesn't stop people from bullshitting themselves into believing some "ex-post-facto" justification often). In essence, what you need to do is examine the corpus of works that use the term or terms you want to decide between, and decide what the prevalent term is. That's basically what lexicographers do, so if a term has become common enough, it'll get picked up by dictionaries, in the way that Kafkaesque and Orwellian have (you'll notice the definitions are almost identical, indicating that the suffixes mean the same thing in each case). If there isn't a dictionary that covers it, a decent proxy might be to use a Google Search (or refined Google Search perhaps using ngrams) to find various variations on the term, and see if any are in common use. --Jayron 32 12:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for locating the link to the ancient WP query and for the comments. Intuitively, I think that Basquiatesque may be the correct sematic choice. As a word, it even sounds a bit like JMB´s painterly prosody. Much obliged... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:27, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does roll off the tongue rather pleasantly, IMHO. --Jayron 32 12:43, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Basquiatesque, for the curious: There actually exists a grafitto by Banksy where he uses a figure in Basquiat´s style (based on Boy and Dog on a Johnny Pump). This was produced at the time of the JMB exhibition at the Barbican, London, some 5 years ago. To the left was added a fake Keith Haring, presumably executed by a different street artist. The murals have been protected by perspex panels but I have no idea if they survived. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Google Books search finds a number of published works that insert a hyphen, "Basquiat-esque", perhaps for the sake of clarity. Alansplodge (talk) 16:44, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can we vote? I like Basquiatic. It has aquatic connotations, but then, he didn't work in watercolors, did he? David10244 (talk) 05:46, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How many Roman Catholic prelates are there?

Like many of you, I check the recent deaths page every day. I can't help noticing that almost every day a Roman Catholic prelate is listed among the dead. And I really mean almost every day. I think a Catholic prelate died on four out of the last five days. I always thought a prelate was a bishop, and I wouldn't have thought there were all that many bishops. Our article on prelate indicates that it's a little broader than that, but it doesn't say how many there are. Is this status conferred on many thousands of elderly clergy? Lantzy : Lantzy 18:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Our Bishops in the Catholic Church article says:

As of 2020, there were approximately 5,600 living bishops total in the Latin and Eastern churches of the Catholic Church.

Alansplodge (talk) 18:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With about 5600 of them, I wouldn't expect a death nearly every day, but I don't know the age distribution. David10244 (talk) 05:48, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the membership stays roughly consistent, there should be about 15 such bishops dying every day, give or take. --Jayron 32 14:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. I think you implicitly assume a complete replacement every year (hence 5600/365 = 15 (or close enough for Fermi)). I would expect Bishops to stay in office more like 20 years. But that would still give us a rate of a bit under 1 death/day, and with some clumping, the above observations are reasonable. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) According to Bishops in the Catholic Church, there are about 5,600 bishops in the Catholic Church. I think in this case, "prelate" is a category while "bishop" is a more specific job title (kind of prelate), so you would refer to bishops as "prelates" just as you would refer to an MP as a "politician", it's just using a more general category to refer to the person in question. If I were to make yet another "imperfect" analogy, prelate is the Catholic equivalent of a "commissioned officer"; priests are basically the "noncoms and privates" of the Catholic hierarchy, and prelates are the officers. Most prelates are going to be Bishops, but it would also include Superiors, such as the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, who is not a Bishop, but is an important leader, and also includes also the leaders of "regular societies" (religious orders, etc.) See prelate. I would think this latter category of prelates would be an order of magnitude smaller than the number of bishops, so there are perhaps 6-7 thousand total prelates, at my best guess. --Jayron 32 19:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Today I heard that the Sixteenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops starting in October would allow the vote of women and laity, but that still bishops outnumber them. I am not sure if everybody in the synod is a prelate, but it may be a starting point in your search. On the other hand, a retired cardinal is a prelate but he does not participate in conclaves and other assemblies. --Error (talk) 23:47, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think Auxiliary bishops are prelates, too. And many dioceses have several of those. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists a number of different offices that come with the title of prelate. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 03:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Auxiliary bishops are bishops. --Lambiam 05:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but as far as I can tell "prelate" has a connotation of being "first" in some jurisdiction. For auxiliary bishops that is only notionally the case insofar as they are Titular bishops. That's why I'm not entirely sure. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 07:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

April 27

Tucker Carlson

One of the accusations against Tucker Carlson, just fired anchor from the fox News was that he used c-word. What is the c-word?

107.191.2.20 (talk) 00:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See "C" word. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Over at Fox, conscientious, compassionate and competent are all c-words. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:38, 27 April 2023 (UTC) [reply]

In case you haven't noticed, Clarityfiend is also a C-word. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 12:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I should have guessed, alas... next time.... Thanks, AboutFace 22 (talk) 17:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Catholic Priest (And Biblical Scholar) In Rome (Or Somewhere In Italy) Who Was Active During The 1950's

Somewhere in the English-language Wikipedia I noticed a biographical article about a Roman Catholic priest in Rome (or somewhere in Italy) who was active during the 1950's. The article mentioned that part of his academic work was writing a large commentary (about 10,000 manuscript pages) on the Bible. His major topic in systematic theology (or dogmatics) was theology of sacrifice. Unfortunately, in his Biblical commentary work, he did not make clear distinctions between INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture (which are supposed to be consistent with official Catholic interpretations) and his own ideas about the APPLICATIONS OR IMPLICATIONS of Scripture (where there is more freedom for personal ideas). Therefore, the Catholic authorities in Rome did not approve of his commentary work and prevented him from publishing his commentary work (or maybe he did publish and then the authorities placed his writings on the Index Of Prohibited Books). If possible, I would like to find this article again because it exemplifies the importance of this distinction (interpretations versus applications or implications). Any ideas from anyone? Thank you. Aquinas2023 (talk) 06:59, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There have been several controversies connected with the Pontifical Biblical Institute. The Index was abolished in 1966... AnonMoos (talk) 08:49, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Theology and philosophy aren't my strong points, so a lot of your clues don't mean a whole lot to me, but Yves Congar's True and False Reform in the Church was banned by the Catholic Church in 1952, according to his article. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You might try looking through Category:20th-century Italian Roman Catholic theologians - there's only 26 of them. Alansplodge (talk) 16:39, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of that list the most "problematic" ones are probably Raimondo Spiazzi and Giovanni Franzoni. --82.52.31.81 (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have not found the exact answer but I certainly appreciate the thoughtful replies that several people have posted concerning this question! I suppose that I could try contacting the Catholic Biblical Association or the Catholic Biblical Quarterly, but the question isn't really worth pursuing to that extent or degree. Thank you.Aquinas2023 (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use or copyright broke?

In the last seconds of videos of this channel, there is iOS ringtone. It is fair use or copyright broke?

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGck6hIsj2Pmw8bzTSBACZM5wIAUOSzPm 2001:B07:6442:8903:A436:296:5F80:2880 (talk) 16:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it seems to be the same as the iOS "Classic" Bell Tower. Fair use is not a concept everywhere in the world (although most countries have some way to allow some use of copyrighted material in some way). The question is a) if this ring tone is sufficiently original to enjoy copyright protection and b) if so, if that use is covered by some exception. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:06, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I should have guessed, alas... next time.... Thanks, AboutFace 22 (talk) 17:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

April 29

Jesús Colón body cremated?

Our article on Jesús Colón says that his body was cremated, and ashes spread over a river in Puerto Rico. I can't find a very reliable source establishing that (I don't think our article's current source is great...). Can anyone? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 01:09, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Marine 69-71: --Lambiam 18:23, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources:

^[1]
^[2]
^[3]

Tony the Marine (talk) 02:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Marine 69-71. (FYI, Your first two links are dead.) I was hoping to find a source that predates the 2004 addition of this content to our article (the links you offered are from 2006 and 2021, respectively) or is marginally higher reliability. The People's World source seems to be directly lifted from Wikipedia, while I can't find anything about cremation in the sources linked by the BlackPast article, and it uses the same image we use, suggesting the author at least looked at our wikipedia article (though it is by a reputable author, I have seen a number of authors with PhDs make mistakes, particularly in scholarship on Colón). Can you or anyone find anything else? Eddie891 ^Talk :_Work 15:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the second source link. --Lambiam 07:32, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

April 30

Birth rate of developed countries and poor countries

I always though people in developed countries have more money. I have seen that women in poor countries have more children that Europe, USA, Japan. Most parents in those developed countries struggle to raise two kids also. While many Sub Saharan rural women have 10 kids. How are poor people able to feed so many kids, while middle class American compain of rising costs? Some Italians are not having kids as they don't have money to feed extra family memeber.

In 1985, Niger had birth rate of 7.93 child per woman, Chad had birth rate of 7.04 child per woman. 1962, Zimbabwe had birth rate 7.25.

I checked Europe, USA never had such birth rate above 7 per women in past 200 years. Maximum 4.6 for European women 150 years ago. In twentieth century, no White country had birth rate above 5. Still, Europe has more population density than Africa.

Why people in rich countries say raising kids is costly, but people in poor countries have no problem raising many kids? CofeeGhana (talk) 06:50, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The cost of living is much higher in rich countries than in poor countries, so it costs much more money to raise kids in rich countries, but parents there are generally rich enough to do so. In poor countries, it costs much less to raise each kid, although having fewer kids would mean more money available for raising each.

BUT, there is another more important factor. In most rich countries, people usually receive unemployment benefits if they cannot find work and other benefits if they are ill or disabled; they can often afford to save up money for their old age; they may earn occupational pensions from their employers, and they usually receive government-run old age pensions. By contrast, in poor countries some or all of these are unavailable, and unemployed, sick and old people are instead supported by their relatives, including their children. Because also infant and child mortality is higher in poor countries, parents have to have more children in order that enough of them live to adulthood to support those parents when old.

This can cause problems in countries where health standards are rapidly improving, because people continue to have many children out of cultural habits, resulting in a surplus population of young adults who cannot find work. This is called the Demographic trap, and is an important underlying reason behind, for example, recent unrest in various North African and Middle Eastern countries. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 (talk) 10:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's more than just cost of living -- in the conditions of many traditional agricultural societies, children were basically economic assets after about the age of 10, while in more economically-advanced societies, there's usually very little direct economic return for the time, effort, and expenses of child-rearing. In any case, the main article is demographic transition. -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:24, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CofeeGhana Don't be mislead by statistics. The birth rates you are quoting are averages and include couples who have difficulty conceiving, or the woman has difficulty carrying the pregnancy to term. A look at many family trees will show families of 0, 1, or 2 children alongside those of ten or a dozen. The next point where statistics can easily mislead is to equate live births to successful rearing, the rate of infant mortality has varied a lot over history. For many and complex reasons the "White countries" (your term) had safer drinking water, paved streets and sewage/rubbish removal before other countires. These were the major changes in public health which lead to northwest Europe entering stage 2 of the demographic transition. If I remember correctly (from studying this at school 50 years ago) the UK entered stage 3 roughly at the start of WWI. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The cost to raise a child varies by what parents deem necessary to provide for a child. In some parts of the world a $1000USD stroller is a reasonable need, in others a stroller is not necessary. Some parents plan to spend over $100,000 on education for their children while most parents across the globe do not and both groups see their choice as reasonable for properly raising a child. Of 19 (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another factor is time. In western countries, you need a lot of education to have any chance at a job. Then you have to find a job, then another job that actually pays well enough to afford cheap housing. In some poor countries you may be able to survive on €50 per month, but in western Europe the poorest quality apartment will already cost you €500 per month. Then you have to find a mate (not trivial in a society where you don't even know the name of your neighbour and only communicate with computers; most people still meet their colleagues, but many jobs have a strong gender bias, so that doesn't help), then a home that's big enough to have children. It's career first, then children. In my country, the average age of a woman when she has her first child is about 30. Starting at that age, 3 children is about the limit. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One aspect not mentioned is the wide and easy availability of contraception, and of the very idea of family planning. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:56, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The thing the OP notes is called the Demographic economic paradox. That links to an article where you can read more about the phenomenon. --Jayron 32 11:53, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 1

Weh Antiok Khusrau

The article spite house says: In 541, after the conquest of Antioch, Sassan Emperor Khosrau I built a new city near Ctesiphon for the 30,000 inhabitants he captured, he modelled this city after the original Antioch and was said to have forced the inhabitants to live in their old homes/old workplaces. There’s no source. Where can I read more about this? Amisom (talk) 20:46, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Our Ctesiphon#Sasanian period article has a mysterious reference, "Dingas, Winter 2007, 109" which isn't listed in the Bibliography section.

The History of Ancient Iran p. 327 has a brief mention.

A less reliable source is this blog. If this is correct, it seems that the spite was against the Byzantine emperor rather than the Antiochians, who apparently did rather well out of the deal.

Hopefully another editor can do better. Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Dingas, Winter reference is to Dignas, Beate; Winter, Engelbert (2007). Rome and Persia in Late Antiquity. Cambridge University Press. p. 109. Following it up, I find they tell us that "Not far from the Sasanian capital Ktēsiphōn he [Xusrō] built a new city that was modelled upon the conquered city; he named the new foundation Veh-Antiok-Xusrō (='Xusrō made this city better than Antioch') and settled Antioch's deported population here." --Antiquary (talk) 11:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC) And I've added that ref in full to the Spite house and Ctesiphon articles. --Antiquary (talk) 11:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC) Ah yes, I now see the IP below was pointing to that ref. --Antiquary (talk) 11:53, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See also: Weh Antiok Khosrow (and sources therein). 136.56.52.157 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That article doesn’t repeat the claim though. Amisom (talk) 06:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not directly, but some of it can be implied from the name meaning "better than Antioch, Khosrow built this" and prisoners-of-war from the cities of Sura, Beroea, Antioch, Apamea, Callinicum, and Batnai in Osrhoene were deported to this new city. Perhaps source(s) can provide more details. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 13:00, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Countries that recognized the old Republic of China

Is there an RS with a full list of countries that diplomatically recognized the 1912-1949 Republic of China? Republic_of_China_(1912-1949)#Foreign_relations mentions some, saying there were 59 countries, but without a reference, History of foreign relations of China appears useless in that regard and elsewhere I had a difficulty with finding (possibly there are Taiwanese sources too, but I don't speak Chinese). Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 23:02, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Uff, I difficult to find a single source with a full listing. I think we have to narrow the question somewhat, are we speaking about cumulative for the entire period 1912-1949 or do we speak about a number of countries at a certain juncture (say 1949)? Considering 1912-1949 spans both WWI and WWII the list of countries available would differ greatly. --Soman (talk) 01:10, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[11] (pp. 415-416) has a list of Westeners in Nanjing 1937-1938, it mentions American Embassy, French Embassy, Dutch Legation, Italian Embassy, British Embassy, German Embassy. Page 351 mentions a Belgian Embassy in Nanjing. Page 88 mentions Japanese Embassy in Shanghai. Page 338 mentions that a house on 4, Chibi Road had been rented to the Mexican Embassy. Page 104 mentions diplomatic relations between China and Germany were suspended in 1942. Page 328 mentions a "Swedish envoy" (to China? can't say for sure due to snippet view). Page 365 mentions that China had a legation in Mexico in 1917, and an embassy in Portugal in 1926. And so forth. --Soman (talk) 01:31, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Swedish envoy was Johan Hugo Beck-Friis, Swedish Minister to China.^[12] --Lambiam 16:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recognitions might have been highest in the Nanjing decade (after the Northern Expedition and before the Japanese invasion of China). Of course, there were a lot fewer independent nations in the world than there are today... AnonMoos (talk) 02:53, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of thoughts - did the League of Nations require mutual recognition of members? and presumably recognition by the United Kingdom would imply recognition by the Dominions? DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 1920, The Republic of China (hereafter, “China”) was one of 42 founding members of the League of Nations, which over time had a total of 63 member states; it is highly unlikely that any one member would not recognize another. However, Foreign Minister Wellington Koo refused to sign the Treaty of Versailles because the document handed German concessions in China to Japan, rather than return them to China. 34 nations were party to those peace talks. China also was one of the 50 founding members of the United Nations. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 20:33, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 2

Where is "Yew Court" in Trinity College, Cambridge?

http://gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-private-dining-room-at-yew-court-trinity-college-news-photo/462700316 , http://gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-interior-of-prince-charles-room-at-yew-court-trinity-news-photo/462700372 and http://dailymail.co.uk/news/royals/article-12027449/Photo-taken-King-Charles-University-Cambridge-1967-released-time.html has photographs captioned "Yew Court" at Trinity College, Cambridge.

Trinity College, Cambridge does not list a "Yew Court". Is it a misspelling of "New Court", and if not, should it be added to the article? Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 06:31, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Charles stayed in the New Court. DuncanHill (talk) 06:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My guess it that it was a typo on the source material, that has been carried through on those few pictures. There's no reference to Yew Court anywhere in any information on Cambridge, excepting that specific yew trees are occasionally mentioned. I'm pretty certain, as with the above speculation, that this is supposed to be New Court. Someone mislabeled (or wrote with sloppy handwriting) back in the 1960s, and those mistakes were carried through. --Jayron 32 18:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A book called 'Seera'

According to our article on Joseph Wolff he wrote that the Arabs of Yemen are in possession of a book called 'Seera,' which gives notice of the coming of Christ and His reign in glory, and they expect great events to take place in the year 1840. Do we know anything more about the book called Seera? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 15:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on prophetic biography which tells us that Sīrah is the generic name for such biographies of the Prophet Muhammad. Wolff has perhaps abbreviated the title of this particular example too much to make it easy to identify. --Antiquary (talk) 15:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Having now had the opportunity of reading the source given in our article, Wolff specifically says it is the Arabs of Hodeyda, and he says the information came from "Muhamed Johar, late Governor of Hodeydah, a gentleman very learned in the Arabic literature". Perhaps this further detail will help someone narrow things down. DuncanHill (talk) 16:03, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More context (but still not the book name, sorry) in Chapter 3 of The Jews of Yemen in the Nineteenth Century: A Portrait of a Messianic Community By B. Z. Eraqi Klorman. Mostly about a Faqih Sa'id who claimed to fulfil this prophecy - unfortunately such a common name is also hard to search. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 3

Did Gandhi observe a strict vow of silence every Monday?

If so, why isn't this in the article Mahatma Gandhi? Being 1/7 of his life, it seems very significant if true. —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 04:45, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. --136.56.52.157 (talk) 07:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe he just didn't like of Mondays. Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:57, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The reason it isn't in the article is because Wikipedia is a work in progress. When you find that a Wikipedia article is lacking some necessary information, vanishingly close to 100% of the time, it's because no one thought to add it yet. That person can be you. --Jayron 32 11:13, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this sounds like at best an oversimplification to me. Gandhi studied law and became a barrister in London, a job hardly compatible with silent Mondays. He then went to South Africa for over 20 years. I suspect this vow was made much later, when he was back in India. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:50, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He doesn’t mention it in An autobiography: The story of my experiments with truth, published in 1927, but he was observing it by 1936 “It was a Monday, his weekly day of silence.” 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:12, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to the diary of Manu Gandhi, the practice of Monday as a day of silence began on Monday 17 January 1921.^[13] --Lambiam 20:21, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is not in our article on Gandhi, but it is mentioned in Vow of silence. --Lambiam 20:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through Gandhi: The Years That Changed the World, Guha talks about:
- Gandhi adopting Monday as the day of silence sometime before 1926 (By now [September 1926], Gandhi had also decided to observe a weekly day of silence. Every Monday, he would not speak at all, communicating through signs or, if necessary, through writing notes on chits of paper.)
- There are continuing mentions of Gandhi continuing the practice during the Salt March (The next day [17th March 1930] was Monday, Gandhi’s designated day of silence, and also now of rest.).
- And in 1934 (Harrison read the article on a Monday, the Mahatma’s day of silence. She marked the passages praising and promoting Gandhi, and handed it over to him. He read it through, twice, asked for a pencil and piece of paper, on which he wrote: ‘Do you know of a Dreamer who won attention by “Adventitious Aid”?’ Asked by Agatha Harrison if he wished to comment further, he shook his head, with (as she recalled) ‘an amused smile’.)
- Sometime in 1947 he shifted the day of silence to Sunday (For many years now, Gandhi had observed his weekly day of silence on Monday. This was now [Feb 1947] changed to Sunday, as that was the day the weekly bazaar was held in this part of eastern Bengal. Gandhi adjusted his schedule to the local rhythms, staying silent on the day when the villagers had to buy or sell their wares, while holding prayer meetings on Monday and through the rest of the week.)
- But it was back to Mondays by the period of his assassination (Monday the 19th [January 1948] was a day of silence for Gandhi. He spent it attending to his correspondence and writing articles for Harijan.)

Abecedare (talk) 20:51, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sum of all human knowledge before 300 AD?

I have recently started the article Ancient text corpora, which is intended to describe and quantify all known writing prior to 300 AD. It was built mostly using the estimates of German scholar Carsten Peust. Peust stated that he didn’t know enough about South Asian or East Asian corpora, so he left them out. I would like to make the article comprehensive, so it gives a full picture of all the ancient knowledge passed down to us.

Would anyone be willing to help find secondary sources which could fill the gaps of estimating the word-count of the East Asian and South Asian ancient corpuses? I have been looking but it isn’t easy to find.

Onceinawhile (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Onceinawhile That's an ambitious project! I happen to live in Seoul but don't know if I can help. I might try the National Library here. BorgQueen (talk) 20:02, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi BorgQueen, it certainly is. I figure it is a topic of wide interest, particularly to us wikipedians. I previously believed the topic was too difficult, but Peust's article changed that, and cross-referencing with our pre-existing List of languages by first written account, we have already covered the significant majority of ancient languages.

Part of the reason for that is that the logogram-based ancient languages, Egyptian and Chinese, are counted as single languages, as the ancient spoken dialects can not be known. Old Korean is a good example of that.

Anything you can find to help would be greatly appreciated. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:50, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In that article there appears to be a considerable confusion between the notions of script and language. Egyptian is not a script but a language; Demotic is not a language but a script. --Lambiam 20:30, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I had noticed that but hadn't got round to fixing it. I have fixed it now. Thanks for the prompt. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:36, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Care needs to be taken in counting "words," which is a European notion of writing. Chinese characters, for example, are more akin to syllables than words, and works are sometimes refereed to by the total number of characters (e.g., "a 6,000 character essay"). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Peust has been careful on that in his scholarly article, for example with Egyptian, writing: "Daraus ergibt sich, dass die Edfu-Inschriften insgesamt annähernd 1,2 Millionen Hieroglyphen umfassen. Da in den Edfu-Texten ein Wort im Mittel mit etwa 2,1 Hieroglyphen geschrieben wird (bei einer Wortsegmentierung ent sprechend der im Wb zugrundegelegten, Suffixpronomina u.a. nicht als eigene Wörter gezählt), kann man festhalten, dass die Texte zwischen fünf und sechshunderttausend Wortformen umfassen." (As a result, the Edfu inscriptions total approximately 1.2 million hieroglyphs. Since a word in the Edfu texts is written with an average of around 2.1 hieroglyphs (in a word segmentation according to the Wb basis, suffix pronouns etc. are not counted as separate words), one can state that the texts contain between five and six hundred thousand word forms.) Onceinawhile (talk) 20:59, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Human attention to the different part of a person

Hi there, I look for a reference to the claim that person pay more attention to the faces than the hands and cloths (for example when they meet someone and want to recognize who is this person). I look also for the name of the phenomena, which an object has parts which have different importance for its recognition by human (some-kind of attention importance)?

Thanks 2A06:C701:4B44:3600:F08A:6497:E38B:D479 (talk) 22:36, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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[2] A Puerto Rican in New York

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