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May 1

German May Day

Between the terms "Erste Mai", "Maifeiertag", "Maitag", "Maifeier", and others, which one would carry the least connotation of Labour Day, labour unions, political movements, social justice and all that, and more of the "pagan summer solstice" meaning/implication (assuming there is an understood difference between all these terms)? 72.234.12.37 (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1 May has no association with summer solstice. I think you're thinking of May Day. Bazza (talk) 12:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was, yes. The general festivities associated with the coming of the summer season practised by Germanic tribes before Christianity became the norm. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that none of those options has the connotation of Labour Day. That would be "Tag der Arbeit". -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 13:38, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've been told that many of those terms have since become synonymous with "Tag der Arbeit" since around the 1970's, especially amongst second-class citizens and people who lived in the DDR/East Germany. So I've been meaning to ask which term is the least likely to incline towards that meaning, and refer to the rural/folkloric celebrations of the arrival of summer. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That may be due to the fact that it was a much bigger deal in the GDR with parades. I am from West Germany and only slightly associate "Erster Mai" with "Tag der Arbeit" because they are sometimes used together: "Erster Mai: Tag der Arbeit". But the other terms I associate if anything with customs like maypoles and Maienstecken.[1] -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of the struggle of the working class these terms are synonyms, but in the absence of a context the term Maifeier used as a plural is perhaps most likely to evoke the connotation of folkloristic customs such as maypole dances. Conversely, without context Erster Mai may be the most likely to be interpreted as the International Workers' Day. --Lambiam 13:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The pagan celebrations are in the night before 1 May, Walpurgisnacht. —Kusma (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan with an "ee" or "ai"

This is something that has always peeved the back of my head whenever I hear it: Why do English speakers pronounce the name Ivan as "ai-ven" (/ˈaɪːvən/) instead of "ee-van" (/ɪˈvɑːn/), when virtually every other language in the world including the native Slavic uses the latter pronunciation? Or how did that pronunciation come to be? When would've been the first time that the "ai-ven" pronunciation entered widespread usage? I guess the same or similar type of phenomenon with the name "Michael" ("mai-khol" (/ˈmaɪkəl/) versus "mii-khell" or "mii-ka-el" (/ˈmiːkäel/)) happened but I'm more fine with that for some reason, perhaps because that name is more commonly encountered... 72.234.12.37 (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A big part of it is likely due to the great vowel shift, during which the "i" vowel (pronounced "ee" as you note) changed into the modern English pronunciation the diphthong /ai/. Lots of English words (not just Ivan) were formerly pronounced "ee" and now are pronounced "ai". --Jayron 32 12:16, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly, I did suspect the Great Vowel Shift might've been an influence for a bit, but for some reason I didn't think that phenomenon would affect names as well. I always assumed it affected mostly normal everyday words, such as "knife" and "light". 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It probably could depend somewhat on how long the names have been around in the Anglo-Saxon world or how foreign they feel, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's going to affect many words that use an "I" in the spelling, even those which came into the language later than the dates of the vowel shift. English speakers will tend to verbally use the conventions of English vowel sounds, even when those words are pronounced differently in other languages. This kind of thing happens all the time., where non-English words are changed in pronunciation to fit English phonology, and isn't particularly limited to the name Ivan. --Jayron 32 17:41, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not even unique to English. —Tamfang (talk) 01:15, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General ignorance/just don't care? The English are well-known for mangling place and personal names and words of other languages. Consider Oleg, which actually sounds most like Al-yék, (Alec, Alexander) when said in Russian, which most people pronounce as if it were written as it sounds, Oh-legg. Some people say ice- cream, others say ice-cream. Also eg French Reims (we say "Reams") or Metz (they say "Mess") MinorProphet (talk) 14:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If they want Oleg pronounced "Al-yék", maybe they should use a more intuitive spelling. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Er, we users of English don't get to preach about intuitive spelling, of all things.

Russian orthography and pronunciation are far more predictable one to another than English could ever be. There are vanishingly few exceptions to the sounds that letters make, one of the most common ones being that unstressed o is pronounced like "uh". (Of course, you have to know where the stress is in any word, and that's quite unpredictable.) Also, consonants in final position are devoiced (g becomes k, b becomes p, d becomes t, etc). Also, genitive adjectives ending in -ого, which in other contexts would be pronounced "ogo", are pronounced "uh-vuh". And that is virtually all you need to know about Russian exceptions. Compare this with the very weighty tome that could be written about English exceptions, for which our language is justly infamous. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And whoever originally transliterated it as "Oleg" doesn't get to preach to us about how to pronounce it. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From our article: Transliteration is not primarily concerned with representing the sounds of the original but rather with representing the characters, ideally accurately and unambiguously. ... Transcription, conversely, seeks to capture sound rather than spelling. (my bolding). Oleg is transliterated perfectly from its origin, Олег. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think Orthographic transcription is the link you are looking for. The old word "translettering" seems to me to be a better term than "transliteration". Perhaps we should revive it. DuncanHill (talk) 11:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And foreigners are well-known for mangling English names and words. People who don't speak a language are often pretty bad at speaking that language. DuncanHill (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But some (maybe only a few) take care to at least try try to say people's names correctly, as a courtesy. I was told by a Pole how to pronounce Adam Mickiewicz's surname, approximately like "Meea-vitch" - the Russians don't swallow entire syllables like that. MinorProphet (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have, once or twice, offended people by pronouncing their names according to my best guess at the source language! —Tamfang (talk) 01:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have had my first name, Håkan, being mispronounced uncountable times by non-Scandinavians. Generally, it doesn't feel worth the bother to take offense... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:43, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MinorProphet, that's not how "Mickiewicz" is pronounced (it's three syllables), so either they were pulling your leg or you misremembered what they said. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Kpalion:I only speak some Russian, and I am not familiar at all with Polish, so apologies if I misunderstood. However, I said "Mee-kia-vitch", and the man I was talking to definitely corrected me with something like "Mee-a-vitch", and definitely not "Mee-ka-vitch" or anything like an audible "k". I'm fairly sure he wasn't pulling my leg, we had a number of interesting and worthwhile conversations before and after. Maybe there are variations in Polish pronunciation. MinorProphet (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, you're sure it wasn't a name spelled with a L with stroke, or with rz-, as these are pronounced a lot differently than what an English speaker would expect?... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why wouldn't we pronounce it "ai-ven"? I can't think of an English word that starts with "i" pronounced as "ee". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:44, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The name Ian? --Jayron 32 17:57, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You got me there. But even that is not absolute, see Ian Ziering. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A greater similarity is to the Anglo-Norse forename Ivor, or the Welsh version which is Ifor. Possibly related is the Anglo-Norman Ivo. All of these start with an "ai" vowel in modern English (or Welsh). Alansplodge (talk) 18:51, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing linguistic is an absolute. It's a cobbled together system of grunts and groans that's constantly evolving, every second of every day. That we can ascribe any level of order to it at all is a miracle. --Jayron 32 18:11, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or the name Igor, which is usually but not always pronounced "ee-gor" in English. CodeTalker (talk) 19:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas the Russians (not sure about other similar languages) pronounce it something like "eager" as in keen, with a rolled R. My kingdom for a Babel Fish. MinorProphet (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 2

Icelandic, Esperanto

Hello, I hope you are well, I would have liked to know how do you say "distress" in Icelandic and Esperanto, please ? Thank you. 2A01:CB0C:38C:9F00:FCE:7583:AAF1:744F (talk) 16:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit unclear which sense of "distress" you would refer to, but according to Wiktionary, The Icelandic word is óþægindi /ˈouːθai(ː)jɪntɪ/ (roughly 'ouwe-thighinti ) and the Esperanto word angoro [anˈɡoro] (pronounced similar to Italian or Spanish, without a ng-sound, roughly un-goro). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understanding a foreign language text

Besides human translation (expensive) and automatic translation (cheap, but often poor results); what tools (software or any procedure) do linguists use to understand a foreign text, when they don't master the language? Would they go word by word and check a dictionary? Would they generate some kind of automatic grammatical analysis? Bumptump (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article may be of interest to you. --Jayron 32 18:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An English-speaking linguist who is a specialist in, say, Old Norse, will probably not have much luck deciphering the meaning of a text in Sumerian, also not when equipped with a dictionary and grammar of the language. Being a linguist will not give them much of an advantage. Without a reasonable degree of mastery of the language, generating automatic grammatical analysis is out of the question. They'll basically have to learn the language like anybody else. --Lambiam 19:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Envelope vs. ensemble

In English, envelope (a word beginning with en of French origin) is usually pronounced as one would expect. But ensemble (another word of this kind) is pronounced "onsomble". Are there lots of English words beginning with en that are of French origin whose pronunciation varies sometimes?? (Any word that meets this criterion is sufficient; there's no need to limit this discussion between these 2 words.) Georgia guy (talk) 19:14, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Georgia guy: "Envelope": take your pick from /ˈɛnvəˌloʊp/ or /ˈɒnvəˌloʊp/ (see [2]). Bazza (talk) 19:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CEPD18 has enclave, endive, envoy. Nardog (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard my fellow Americans say either "en-velope" or "on-velope", possibly depending on where they live or what their education level is. It's like saying "roof" to rhyme with "goof" or "good". Or saying "often" as "off-ten" vs. "off-en". Or "route" as "rout" or "root" (to rhyme with "goof", not "good"). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:47, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation is the route of all evil! Clarityfiend (talk) 02:34, 3 May 2023 (UTC) [reply]

There are not many en- words with dual pronunciations, but another one is envoy, with US pronunciations / ˈɛn.vɔɪ/ and / ˈɑn.vɔɪ/. --Lambiam 07:22, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it might be due to how long ago the word (in some form) was adopted into English, with "more French" pronounciations being more recent, but to my surprise, the dictionary of word origins I consulted says "envelope" was adopted in the 18th century but "ensemble" in the 15th. I suspect it might be down to frequency of usage: "envelope" is a common word that (particularly in the "age of mail", to coin a term) most people used frequently, but "ensemble" is quite specialised, so much so that, though BrE with only 'O' Level French (50 years out-of-date) I sometimes pronounce it fully as a French word. Pretentious? Moi? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 (talk) 07:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Curiously, the noun "énvelope" has two pronunciations, but the verb "envélope" has only one. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because in English, vowels tend to be reduced in unstressed syllables; we only really pronounce stressed vowels carefully. So depending on how your particular dialect may pronounce the "en" at the beginning will vary because it is stressed, but when it is in an unstressed position, it just becomes some minor variation of a schwa. --Jayron 32 11:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this rule does not apply to the unstressed first syllable of ensemble. --Lambiam 20:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly because it's one of those words in English where the French pronunciation is (to some approximation) maintained. Ensemble, croissant, bouquet, words like that tend to retain some of the original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics. Not every word in English (or any language) rigidly obeys any strict rules. --Jayron 32 09:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I pronounce some words the French way, e.g. envelope, corps, café, route, croissant, coup d'état, main-gauche and baguette. Sleigh (talk) 22:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most English speakers do. I've never (except in jest) heard things like "COOP-DUH-TAT" instead of "COO-DAY-TAH", for example. --Jayron 32 12:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If we'd split hairs, it'd technically be an Anglified French way, though, as the phonetic systems of French and English are rather different... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I hadn't already split those hairs already, your comment would be less redundant. You see, when I said "original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics" what I actually meant was "original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics" I hope that clarifies matters. --Jayron 32 15:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Entrepreneur. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 3

English verbs

Are there any regular verbs in English that

form contraction with -n't
can come before subject
do not use do-support in questions?

And are there any grammatical words in English which contain letter J?

--40bus (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The closest you'll probably get for your first question is dare – it has at least some uses in which it morphologically behaves like a regular verb (he dares, he dared), and it has at least some uses in which it has the modal-verb-like syntactic properties you named (I daren't, how dare you). However, these uses are not overlapping – in exactly those contexts where it behaves syntactically like a modal, it it also behaves like one morphologically. It's he daren't, not *he daresn't, and how dare he do X, not how dares he do X. So you might say these are actually two different items, in which case the answer to your question is a plain "no". Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As This notes, only limited numbers of words take the "-n't" contraction: forms of the verbs be, have, and do, and the English modal verbs. Given that limited list of verbs, I can't find any that meet your conditions. Also, your second question seems odd, lots of English words, in proper grammar, have a "J" in them. Joke, jerk, jump, etc. Those are all "grammatical" as far as I can tell. --Jayron 32 19:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Grammatical words are "Words for which the primary function is to indicate grammatical relationships, as distinct from lexical words, the primary function of which is referential (content words). Grammatical words include articles, pronouns, and conjunctions. Lexical words include nouns, verbs, and adjectives." (definition from Oxford Reference). DuncanHill (talk) 19:44, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What about "just" in the sentence "I was hit by a hailstone just as I was walking into my house". I'm pretty sure "just" is serving as a conjunction between the two clauses "I was hit by a hailstone" and "as I was walking into my house". I think this fits under the "conjunctions of time" or "subordinating conjunctions" listed there. If conjunctions are grammatical words, there's one that uses a J. --Jayron 32 19:51, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In just as, the word as is a conjunction, synonymous to when. It is modified by the adverb just, in this use synonymous to precisely. Together, just as means the same as precisely when. --Lambiam 20:02, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Good call. --Jayron 32 20:02, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wiktionary considers just as soon as and just in case to be single conjunctions synchronically, even if they started out as adverb + conjunction collocations. I'm more familiar with the term function word than "grammatical word". —Mahāgaja · talk 20:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We can perhaps agree that just as soon as and just in case are not function words. --Lambiam 01:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In many forms of American English, "just" the adverb is [dʒɨst], categorically different from the adjective [dʒʌst]... AnonMoos (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is a grammatical word?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:06, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia article is function word, as indicated by Mahagaja above. AnonMoos (talk) 19:13, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The verb need also can be used as a regular verb (he needs more time – do we need a ticket? ) and as a modal verb (changing your habits needn't be painful – need I say more? ). --Lambiam 19:51, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't

2. Commands Imperative mood, e.g. Go away. Shut your mouth. Give me the salt shaker. However, when translating to another language, I would add the implied subject before the verb, e.g. You go away. You shut your mouth. You give me the salt shaker. Interjections that start with a verb.

3. What is the time? Which colour is it? How does it work?
Sleigh (talk) 22:38, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the intention of the question was to find regular verbs (not auxiliary verbs) that meet all three clauses. --Lambiam 01:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any verbs which can be in form [stem]sn't or [stem]edn't?

--40bus (talk) 20:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Daredn't^[3][4][5] and neededn't.^[6][7][8] The latter is rare, but feels acceptable to me in reported speech. --Lambiam 07:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the 19th century, there were forms such as "dassent" and "durstn't" (from the verb "to dare"), but they're archaic now... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Below par

Hi everyone. Just dawned on me that "below/under par" is used when referring to something lacking, of poor quality etc. In golf, below par is great news for the player who achieves it.

So is it that par in golf is of different etymology or did somebody completely miss the intended meaning decades ago, which then spread? I have follow-up questions, but they depend on answers I will hopefully get.

Thank you. Splićanin (talk) 23:47, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The usage you're describing fits the usage explained in our article on the financial term Par value. It explicitly mentions the term "under par". HiLo48 (talk) 00:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See definition 5 for the noun under "Etymology 3" in Wiktionary (marked as "UK" there, but this American certainly recognizes the usage). When par means "average", it's not hard to see why "below par" would be a good thing in golf (fewer strokes than a notional average) but a bad thing when referring, for instance, to one's health ("I'm feeling below par", i.e., worse than average). Deor (talk) 00:43, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, partner. Splićanin (talk) 05:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 5

Get 'a' divorce

What is the function of 'a' in that construct? Is 'divorce' countable? Or supposed to be? Thanks for comments. Omidinist (talk) 05:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The "a" is a normal indefinite article. "Divorce" is a count (countable) noun in this context and can also be a mass (uncountable) noun in other contexts. The question about "supposed to be" is meaningless. --174.89.12.187 (talk) 06:13, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's just one of the many inconsistencies of the English language that you can either get divorced or get a divorce but you can only get married and not *get a marriage. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"a marriage" is perfectly cromulent. The sentence "I have had three marriages and two divorces" is perfectly reasonable. And yes, "divorce" is a countable noun, as I just demonstrated. --Jayron 32 12:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mahagaja -- You can "get a marriage license", "officiate at a marriage", or "hold a wedding ceremony". AnonMoos (talk) 19:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I never denied that marriage is a countable noun, I'm just asserting that no one says "I'm getting a marriage" to mean "I'm getting married" the way people say "I'm getting a divorce" to mean "I'm getting divorced". —Mahāgaja · talk 07:39, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm? --Jayron 32 23:57, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't preclude "getting a marriage certificate" etc. Nardog (talk) 06:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One could also "get a spouse". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for logic in English usage can sometimes prove to be a fruitless exercise. Alansplodge (talk) 11:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cartellverband

I'm reading the list of member fraternities of the Cartellverband. Apparently their names are in Latin and somehow refer to their respective territory/city. Some of them are transparent, such as: Badenia, Bavaria, Carinthia, Guestfalia, Palatia, Rhenania or Saxonia, but a few of them are quite mysterious, in particular: Aenania, Alcimonia, Algovia, Ascania, Tuisconia/Tuiskonia, Makaria, Moenania, Novesia. Do you have any idea about their meaning? 79.26.53.210 (talk) 07:16, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think Algovia refers to the Allgäu and Moenania to the River Main. Ascania probably refers to the House of Ascania, whose name apparently comes from the Latin name of the castle in Aschersleben. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aenania refers to the river Inn (de:KDStV Aenania München). Alcimonia is probably related to Alcimoennis and/or the river Altmühl. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tuisconia is from Tuisto (de:Karlsruher Burschenschaft Tuiskonia). Makaria is named after a poem by Theodor Körner, Greek Μακαρία meaning "happiness". --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, de:Novaesium is the Latin name of Neuss; however, neither the article de:KDStV Novesia Bonn nor their website make that connection (or say anything at all about the name). --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why does Sunday have a special name in Chinese?

Names_of_the_days_of_the_week#Days_numbered_from_Monday explains that days of the week in Chinese are "Stellar Period" followed by a number, except for Sunday.

Why does Sunday have a special name and not just a number like all the others?

Is having a 7-day week a relatively recent introduction by westerners who were more likely than not, missionaries?

Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 09:24, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The name for Sunday is likely a retainer from the original East Asian system mentioned elsewhere in the article. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:21, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The situation seems similar to the developments in Icelandic, Portuguese and Modern Greek, where the older system was (mostly) replaced. In the European cases, it would largely have been due to Christian views on paganism. In Chinese, it seems that the modern system basically originated with the founding of the Republic of China in 1911. The founders mostly seem to have been revolutionaries and nationalists, but not strictly communists, so I guess the older system might have been seen as convoluted and superstitious. The old name for Sunday might have been kept, as it was exceptional as a resting day. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:50, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, Week#Adoption in Asia sounds like a promising place to find this information, but what is there is a) very scant and b) entirely unreferenced. --Jayron 32 12:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Days of the Week in Chinese: Three Different Words for 'Week' says that a seven-day week was a fairly recent innovation based on Christian worship.

Before they adopted the Western-style week, the Chinese used a ten-day cycle known as a 旬 xún in ordering their daily lives and activities. Although the Christian week was not unknown (it was known, for instance, from contact with the Jesuits in the 16th-18th centuries), the seven-day week as we know it first became widely familiar in the 19th century with the coming of traders and missionaries from Western powers.

The present terminology was adopted in 1912 at the founding of the Republic of China. Alansplodge (talk) 17:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, actually the seven-day week arrived in China quite a while ago. From the Cihai: 中国在4世纪时有此法。("This reckoning [the seven-day week] existed in China in the 4th century", i.e. Jin dynasty). Buddhists and Manichaeans from the Western Regions probably brought it in again in the 8th century, i.e. Tang dynasty. The site you link to describes all of this when discussing the weekdays in Japanese. The recent innovation was actually adopting the 7-day week for the daily schedule. When China and Japan did this, Japan put the traditional planetary names in daily use, whereas Chinese replaced them with numerical names.

For completeness, Korean uses the same Chinese-character names as Japanese (but read in Korean and mostly today written in Hangul), whereas Vietnamese rather follows the Portuguese pattern (numbered days with special Sunday, and Monday as the second day), as do the traditional names used by Chinese Catholics. Double sharp (talk) 22:49, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot, everyone, for the excellent insights. I wonder what can be added to Week#Adoption_in_Asia or Names_of_the_days_of_the_week#Days_numbered_from_Monday to help future readers. Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 05:08, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It has nothing to do with the traditional ten-day week. Sunday is a special day in the Christian religion, which was the introduction vector of the seven-day week. It might be worth considering that the second syllable of the word "week" (xingqi) is homophonous with the word for "seven". I could see the pronunciation being misparsed, especially as time terms tend to come at the beginning of the sentence in Chinese and thus are easily miscontextualised. No references. Folly Mox (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the table here I've only encountered the informal 禮拜 in Cantonese, in Hong Kong in particular where it is the usual form. Interestingly in Cantonese 一 and 日 are a minimal pair, both pronounced "yat" but with different tones. So 禮拜一 and 禮拜日 are both "laibaiyat", only distinguished by their tones, a particular problem for anyone trying to get by without tones. 92.40.5.34 (talk) 09:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 7

A rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight

Hello, I am German and my English is not so good. I'm looking for a source as early as possible since 1863 in a newspaper, magazine or a book for the slogan „A rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight.“ (See also my query at the German Wikipedia [9]) My second question is whether this is already a Winged Word or a catchphrase (in German: Geflügeltes Wort). Thanks for answers. --88.72.111.240 (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is from 1864: Raleigh Standard as quoted in the New York Times, January 22, 1864. No luck finding an antebellum source. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 15:47, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That use of the phrase seems to be by the NCpedia editors in introducing the New York Times article. The phrase "A rich man's war and a poor man's fight" doesn't appear to have been used by either the Times or the Raleigh Standard at the time, at least in this case. It certainly sounds like a phrase that would have been used in a Civil War context though. Deor (talk) 16:42, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody with a NYT subscription (not me) can read the original article here:[10] --136.56.52.157 (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! --88.72.111.240 (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is it already a Winged Word or a catchphrase today? Can I say this? --88.72.111.240 (talk) 16:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, but that might be a matter of opinion; these might help:

"Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Fight". Beyond the History Textbooks. 4 December 2013.
Andrea Asoni; Tino Sanandaji. "IFN Working Paper No. 965, 2013" (PDF). Research Institute of Industrial Economics. Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Fight? Socioeconomic Representativeness in the Modern Military
Martin, Bessie (2003). A rich man's war, a poor man's fight : desertion of Alabama troops from the Confederate Army. Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press. ISBN 978-0817350109.
Keith, Jeanette (2004). Rich man's war, poor man's fight : race, class, and power in the rural South during the first world war. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 9780807855621.
"Rich Man's War – Poor Man's Fight – Whiskey & Wickedness".

136.56.52.157 (talk) 18:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1863: The Rebellion in America by Baptist Wriothesley Noel, published by J. Nesbet, 1863. p 269. "They declare that this is a rich man's war, but a poor man's fight" with a footnote that says "Times, May 12". 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whow. Thank you. Nesbet is published 1863, so Times 12 May 1863 seems now the earliest source, we found. And thanks to all the other answers. (Now time to bed for me. :-) --88.72.111.240 (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Translation of Geflügeltes Wort

Folowing on from this, the German article for Geflügeltes Wort (literally "winged word") links to the English catchphrase. I would associate a catchphrase with a line used by a comedian rather than something used in politics. Is there a better translation for the example quoted above? Alansplodge (talk) 11:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking as an(other?) elderly Brit, the comedic application is not predominant for me, and M. Roget has not suggested any better, more politically oriented term. {The poster formerly known as 897.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 (talk) 12:36, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 8