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June 8

Extra, extra!

Missing from film streaming services are the DVD "extras" such as alternative audio with narratiion by the director and/or actor(s) and a "making of..." documentary as well as such extras as deleted scenes, etc. Is there anyplace online where such things can be found? -- 136.54.99.98 (talk) 04:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can normally find them on illegal torrent sites. If you don't want to go there, then it's a case of buying the DVD I'm afraid. --Viennese Waltz 10:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on where you get the streaming service. On Amazon Prime, I rarely find extras for movies. Often, there are a couple extras for series. When I use Vudu, it is very common to find plenty of extras for movies and shows, along with many alternate soundtracks. I can't claim that all extras are included, which isn't terrible. Back when I did watch the extras with alternate soundtracks on DVD/Blueray, I often found it pathetic. There would be two guys saying things like: So, we're sitting in a room watching this with you. I had a good time filming this. Do they give us food while we do this? Anyone want pizza? Do you remember that one scence? Which one? The one with the red car? No. I don't. Wait, no, that was a different movie. Well, this one had a good scene somewhere. Yep. Was that pizza ordered? ... 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bwhahaha MinorProphet (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC) [reply]

June 12

I want to spend my life understanding minor scale inconsistency

Melodies in minor keys are sometimes inconsistent when they simply go up scales in certain sections. Look at this melody (we're assuming it's in C minor, but we can transpose it to any minor key):

G-A-B, G-A-B, C-D-E♭, C-D-E♭, F-G-A♭... (Yes, the melody continues, but I'm stopping here because this is sufficient to let you know what I'm talking about.)

The chord progression that this melody (in C minor) can be accompanied by is V-V-i-i-iv. This you should have no trouble understanding. But the real thing is that this is an ascending scale for more than an octave; specifically the C minor scale (starting on the dominant) using the melodic minor scale at the beginning and the harmonic minor scale later on. Do you know any melodies that have scales that are inconsistent in different parts?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:27, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would not call it an inconsistency. The minor scale gives composers and improvisers more freedom while staying in the same key, and they are not loathe to explore the possibilities. --Lambiam 20:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you could spend your life just trying to understand the Harmonic minor scale article and you would be none the wiser. My thoughts on WP articles about music theory are unprintable. I came across this forum page at Ultimate Guitar - read all the way through, it gets quite funny towards the end. MinorProphet (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What's stopping you from working to improve those articles? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be a lack in music-theory background? I bet you could waste your life just trying to understand our Simplicial homology article. Do you perhaps see an impediment to you working to improve it? --Lambiam 13:58, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have a good knowledge of music theory; it's just the fact that some things catch my attention so easily. The harmonic minor scale is usually used for standard music in minor keys. But the melodic minor is often used for passing tones, especially the 6th note when accompanied by the V chord or the 7th when accompanied by the iv chord. Georgia guy (talk) 15:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many of our mathematics articles are opaque to me, despite my having some mathematical education. (Simplicial homology happens to be one that I think I could, with study, understand well enough to make marginal improvements.) I have worked on many geometry articles, and worry a bit that they are similarly bewildering to the uninitiated; how would I know? :( —Tamfang (talk) 15:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The scale isn’t inconsistency, there’s just a key change you didn’t know about. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What key change?? The above melody is in C minor; it uses an ascending scale starting on the dominant (G) and goes up a 9th; the 2nd and 9th are not the same (A and A♭.) (These notes are parts of the C meloidc and harmonic minor scales respectively.) Georgia guy (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Key change is from C melodic minor to C harmonic minor. It could also be described as a modal modulation. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Melodic minor to harmonic minor is generally not considered a key change. There is no notion of a shift in tonality, and the alternation can occur fleetingly in a single phrase. Compare the use of altered chords or borrowed chords, also generally not considered modulation. --Lambiam 01:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 13

A career in audio engineering

I am interested in pursuing a career in audio engineering in the future. I am only one year away from getting a Computing and IT BSc Honours Degree, and I am looking into future careers.

Essentially. I am looking to get an audio engineering job. I would like to be able to operate the mixing console in a recording studio. This could be for recording music, narration, voice acting lines, or even radio & television broadcasts. There is also the possibility of me doing it at a theatre, concert hall, arena, or even a school assembly hall.

So, I was wondering what qualifications I would need for this, and where I could get some leads? I would like to know who to apply to and where such jobs are advertised. I also hope that my Computing degree is enough, as University has been quite stressful for me, and I’d rather not start another course after finishing my current one. I also have passed maths and science exams at school.

If I do require more qualifications, then which ones would I need, and where would I get them? I am a self-taught musician mostly, though I did have piano lessons for a few weeks, back when I was at school. I am based in Scotland, so knowledge of how these things work in the UK would be required.

I am also interested in a few other jobs. Information for them would be very helpful at this time. They are:

Sound effects designer
TV & Video Game Soundtrack composer
Composer of advertising jingles & children’s music
Recording studio technician
Song producer & DJ (I am particularly fond of this, as they seem to get paid a lot, and they work with interesting people)

I hope you can be of assistance in these matters. Thank you, Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What will you do if they tell you there's a dress code? :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll comply with it. Pablothepenguin (talk) 01:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copying your header to a search engine gets results that are probably better than responses from random Wikipedia volunteers. 136.54.99.98 (talk) 01:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am still eager to hear some answers. I’m not very good with internet search results. They are often not specific enough to my location, and I don’t know whether I should trust random websites that I am likely not familiar with. All I ask is that I be given ideas about what to do. Pablothepenguin (talk) 11:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are relatively very few recording studios. That makes the number of professional audio engineers relatively small. Therefore, it is a matter of identifying those who have the job and examining how they got the job. The few I know started by being in a band and, while recording, took a lot of interest in working with the audio engineer. Then, over time, they became audio engineers also. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:08, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That’s useless to me, as I’m not in a band. Also, it’s not just recording studios. Audio engineers are also needed in live venues, such as concert arenas and theatres, so I would have thought that there would be no shortage of suitable venues. Also, how in the name of Christ do I get the chance to speak to a recording engineer? Pablothepenguin (talk) 12:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to this, my question about academic qualifications still hasn’t been answered. All I ask is that I find out what exams I need to pass and what training I need for the position. I don’t want to know about some random stranger’s band friends.

Can’t people see that I need damn leads!? I’m also eager to know what the hell I have to do to get the chance to design sound effects for video games, or even write some of the music for a children’s entertainment group at a holiday camp.

Why are people so naive is to forget the fundamental truth that I need to get a foot in the door? Can’t you people take the hint that I need you to get me in touch with sound engineers? When I posted this question, I expected you to find these people for me and recommend me to them for crying out loud. And yet, you’d rather take the lazy option and point me to a search engine? That won’t work, as I can’t get enough Scottish results that way. I don’t want to work in London and I certainly don’t want to relocated 3,000 miles for the sake of a bleeding job. Pablothepenguin (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if we have disappointed you, but we're just volunteers and often have no specialist knowledge. The purpose of the Reference Desks is to find sources for editors writing Wikipedia articles. Although we are willing to help with other questions, we can only search the internet in the same way that you can. Alansplodge (talk) 13:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Alan.

I’m just frustrated with the fact that I don’t know where to look for this most essential of information. That is what has made me so annoyed today.

Who the hell would know what I need to do, who is available to me? Surely there must be some avenue that the people who do have these jobs took themselves?

Can you give any idea whatever, on how to track these folks down and contact them with my queries? I just want to make a good impression on these folks, so that I can be hired by them. After all, how else would I even earn money? Where is the expertise, anyway?

And finally, can’t people see how desperate I am to get my talents known to the public? Why can’t I be the guy in the control booth at a rock concert? And, why the name of goodness can’t I be the guy who is in charge of the music at a seaside caravan park? Pablothepenguin (talk) 13:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the possibility of on-the-job learning, acquiring the actual qualifications needed – as they become evident on the job – by a combination of self study and taking the good advice of expert colleagues. If you are strongly motivated, you might just apply to a studio that appeals to you, basically saying "I know I'm not fully qualified, but I am an eager learner and believe I can learn a lot from you galls and guys. Could we have a conversation?" --Lambiam 13:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But where do I find contact details for such studios? Where do I find experts? Pablothepenguin (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Does your University not have a Careers Advice office (which might be called something else)? The establishment teaching you relevant skills and awarding you formal qualifications ought to know how and where those skills and qualifications might be utilised.

Does your University's Library not subscribe to relevant professional journals and magazines which carry job advertisements?

Can none of your lecturers or tutors give you advice about these matters?

Does your University not host performances by professional bands whose road crews include audio engineers operating mixing desks? If approached correctly, some may be willing to give tips on getting into the business.

Have you attempted to learn practical skills and get a foot in the door by volunteering to roadie for local bands, whether Uni based or otherwise?

University is not just about acquiring technical knowledge; it's also about learning how to interact and 'network' with others in order to navigate society. The saying "It's not what you know, it's who you know" has considerable validity. Incidentally, I also attended a Scottish University (the oldest one). {The poster formerly known as 87.981.230.195} 46.65.228.117 (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good stuff, but the trouble is that I use the Open University which is a distance learning facility. They do have a campus down in Milton Keynes, but I said before that I ain’t going to England for work. Also, I don’t have the right build to be a roadie, and I refuse to accept a non-paid volunteer position, especially one that involves manual labour, which I incidentally hate.

Perhaps, I will contact my University, but I’d also like advice that actually works for me. To put it simply, any job I get must be no further than an hour’s bus or train journey away from my residence. This effectively limits me to a limited area. I might consider an hour and a half if I am sufficiently desperate, but I’d prefer to avoid that.

Also, do you have any idea about how to convince the relevant agencies to use sound effects and songs I wrote and created in their games and programmes? I’m desperate to work for somebody cool. I could even write kids’ music for God’s sake! Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Moving to live near to a job is not unheard of (and is made easier by having recently gotten a job, landlords like that). Card Zero (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can’t do that. I am already in the process of moving to a new flat near my old house, and I will NOT move again. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or so you think. There's an old saying: "If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would dispute the statement (somewhere above) there are relatively few recording studios. I mean everything's relative but in any city (even small ones) they seem to me to be only slightly less common than hairdressers. I count 20 in Edinburgh, without looking very hard. You could just walk into some of them and have an awkward conversation with whatever oik is on reception. Maybe they have noticeboards with potential leads.
I looked at job sites, and noted the absence of "sound engineer" or "audio engineer" as a job. There's plenty of "audio technician" jobs, which are different, and sound tediously unrelated to music and more like being an electrician.
I note that there are degree-level courses in sound engineering, which supposedly come with careers advice. I wonder though whether these marry up to actual jobs, or whether the careers advice just amounts to "we think you're now equipped to find a job working in television or the games industry or something, good luck!"
I toyed with suggesting you be a roadie, but maybe that's not for you. Also I don't know where you apply. It strikes me that a lot of these jobs are arranged informally. If some small venue or band needs somebody to sit behind the mixing desk, this is generally arranged by somebody saying "do you know Keith? He might want to do it" rather than putting out an advert anywhere. But there's a duality to the types of jobs you'd go for: there's these crappy informal ones to do with bands and people who've decided spontaneously that they're DJs, and all that sort of DIY attitude small entertainment venue stuff, and then there's the alleged jobs listed here (careers tab) at the University of the Highlands and Islands: Producing content for television, radio or online broadcast. Recording and creating sound effects for film. Working in computer gaming. Live production audio for concerts, conference, and theatre. Which is all more formal. But perhaps the way to find those is to apply specifically to each individual large institution that might have the jobs: the TV and radio stations, the game studios, the concert halls and theaters. They've got a lovely picture of a big mixing desk, but as you say it's hard to find where in the world the actual desks might be situated, so maybe the process is to guess about that and then make speculative approaches seeking advice.
I also found Graduate Career Advantage Scotland. I don't know whether they're any good: their vacancy hub tab is password protected. In principle they can get you an internship somewhere with a mixing desk, but I don't know how many employers they actually have and what kind of dreary job they might actually try to shuffle you off into. Still, you could apply. They might well say you've applied too soon and you have to finish your degree and actually be a graduate first, and perhaps next year, but hey, you can find out what they say.

Card Zero (talk) 16:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting stuff. I’m keen on finishing my degree and doing well. I’m heavily reluctant to start a new degree, due to academic stress, so how in the name of goodness do I convince an employer to overlook that? Also, is my Computing Degree enough for ANY musical job? Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 14

fictional cartoon adventures of real people

Yellow Submarine is a cartoon about fictional adventures of the Beatles, voiced by actors. A few years later there was a Saturday morning cartoon, Harlem Globetrotters, about fictional adventures of the Harlem Globetrotters, likewise voiced by actors (hm, two of whose names I recognize). Both of those productions presumably had the consent of the people portrayed.

I can't think of another fictional animated production in which the main characters represent real living people; can you? —Tamfang (talk) 16:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’m particularly confused as to why they couldn’t use the voices of the real people instead of weirdo actors? Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was The Beatles (TV series), which might have been before your time. And in the 1930s and 1940s, at least, there were often animated versions of real people. W. C. Fields was frequently caricatured that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For one thing the "real people" were rather busy with their day jobs; for another, they would have been expensive voice actors. 136.54.99.98 (talk) 16:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I guess they’re just greedy bastards then? Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Gorillaz spring to mind. They were (are?) fully committed to being cartoons. Card Zero (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another that immediately springs to mind is the excellent My Old School (2022 film), in which scenes from 14 years previously are animations of the former pupils at a school, who are also interviewed live "today". Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, here we go: Category:Animation based on real people. Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's so many! Mr Bean, of course. Some of them are tenuous. I guess Mr. Peabody & Sherman is in there because it's about history and thus contains animated historical figures - but many cartoons would qualify that way. For instance I remember the Venture Bros featured an animated David Bowie at one point (semi-fictionalized into a supervillain, with his long-term companda Li-Li as a sidekick). Card Zero (talk) 17:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that Mr Bean, being a fictional character portrayed by a real actor - as distinct from a real person himself - belongs in that category. The blurb at the top says "... Richard Nixon's occasional appearance in Futurama as a head in a jar does not count. Nor do characters or personas commonly portrayed "live" by real people." Or is Mr Bean an actual, real historical human bean? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A good answer requires a very concrete definition of what you mean by "represent real people." The characters in the Beatles and Globetrotters animations are very loosely based on the real people and represent them no more than Fat Albert represents Albert Robertson. The scriptwriter has stock characters to build a story around. The animators create that story using the character images. The voice actors try to mimic what the characters should sound like. In the end, you are not supposed to think that the animated characters truly represent the real people. I can find no indication that Lucy Liu has a perversion towards alcoholic robots, even if it was clearly documented in Futurama. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Jackson 5ive (TV series). There was also The Osmonds (TV series), but they used the voices of the real Osmonds. --Amble (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

McLaren Tooned. A while back McLaren produced a series of humorous cartoons in which (presumably fictional or composite) senior engineer Professor M, with Bruce McLaren from the earliest days, has the team's current drivers Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton test various new experimental ideas and devices with "no racing today, chaps." Of course the drivers take every opportunity to race each other. The driver characters are voiced by the actual drivers.

There's also the ongoing OfficialMinis cartoon series depicting highlights of F1, Formula E and MotoGP races, with (mostly) fictitious humorous dialogue. (Yes, the redlinks are deliberate.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 46.65.228.117 (talk) 05:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 15