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Mary I

Quick question…

Edited the infobox recently to include the ordinal I so that infobox was headed “Mary I”.

The edit was reverted.

I asked the editor responsible why, but they have not (yet) responded.

Given that there’s nothing in the MoS to suggest that the edit was wrong or inaccurate, I’m curious as to why the article would not be in keeping with others dealing with historical monarchs where the ordinal is included, even if they were/are known by a more common term, for example William the Lion shows “William I” and the lede states “sometimes known as William I”. (William of Orange being William II of Scotland, and his wife, Mary Stuart, Great-Great-Granddaughter of Mary I of Scotland, being Mary II of Scotland).

A quick Google search turns up several references to Mary, Queen of Scots as Mary I, including the government’s own ‘’National Records of Scotland’’; https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/hall-of-fame/hall-of-fame-a-z/mary-queen-of-scots

(For those unfamiliar with the NRS, see here: https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/about-us )

Why would it not be appropriate for the infobox on this article, which itself states in the lede “also known as - Mary I of Scotland”, for the ordinal to be included?

Or should it be the case that the infobox of other articles, for example Mary I of England, who in that instance may be better known as “Mary Tudor” or “Bloody Mary”, have the ordinal removed from the infobox?

Confused as to the lack of a consistent approach…

2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 14:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think she gets confused with Mary I quite a lot. Probably best to avoid confusing the issue further. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure I’m entirely in agreement, as I could see that being the case if each article were styled Mary I, however I am not proposing to change the title of the article - which might result in a situation which you refer to.
In adding the ordinal to the infobox to read Mary I the article infobox then accurately reflects that Mary, Queen of Scots was the first of two individuals called Mary Stuart to reign as Queen of Scots/Scotland. The absence of the ordinal omits to bring that to the reader’s attention and is at odds with other articles on similar subjects.
I wouldn’t expect Wikipedia to omit facts from articles for fear of confusing, but rather present facts in order to inform. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tend to agree. In fact, the article was previously located at Mary I of Scotland but was moved, after much discussion, in order to satisfy the "common namers". Deb (talk) 18:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My issue lies not with the article’s location/title - nor do I wish to reopen discussion on that topic.
However, I maintain that the infobox should read Mary I in order that it accurately reflect that Mary, Queen of Scots was the first of two individuals called Mary Stuart to reign as Queen of Scots/Scotland. The absence of the ordinal omits to bring that to the reader’s attention and is at odds with other articles on similar subjects.
I doubt very much that it’s inclusion in the infobox will confuse readers in respect of a monarch of England, Mary Tudor, who, unlike Mary Stuart, was the only Tudor monarch of England to bear that name. In mentioning Mary Stuart, Queen of Scotland, surely an encyclopaedia, in pursuit of the avoidance of confusion, must enable the reader to distinguish readily as to whether such refers to Mary I (1542-1567) or Mary II (1689-1694).
Edit: The articles Henry IV of England and Henry IV of France both show “Henry IV” in the infobox, which is perfectly proper and consistent in dealing with two separate monarchs of two separate kingdoms, with no evidence of confusion being an issue nor a need for the ordinal to be omitted from either article. Therefore, surely the same should apply with regard to “Mary I” appearing in the respective infoboxes dealing with two separate monarchs of two separate kingdoms? I am highly sceptical that a possibility for confusion exists in the event that the ordinal is added to the infobox of this article.
2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 18:50, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried a few times (in the past) to have Mary I the infobox heading, but was always reverted. Even though Scotland also had a Mary II. Also tended to get reverted when showing her as Mary I in the infoboxes of her father & her son. GoodDay (talk) 00:36, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In which case, the approach taken by certain editors to this particular historical figure would appear to me to be highly irregular, in that information from reliable sources is routinely removed for fear of “confusion” (whether real or imagined) with an entirely separate and unrelated historical figure, who is themselves the subject of a separate and unrelated article.
If adopted as a standard across Wikipedia, can you image the carnage such a practice would wreak? If removing factual and verifiable edits to this article is justified, then surely those same arguments could be used justify the editing in a similar vein of Henry IV of France or Henry IV of England, for example, so as to avoid “confusion”. Can you imagine the uproar if I popped over to Henry IV of England and deleted the “IV” from the infobox header and justified my actions on the grounds of avoiding confusion with Henry IV of France? My edit would be reverted instantly and my argument for doing so shot to pieces.
Did you ever seek arbitration following the reverting of your edits to include the ordinal? I don’t want to go over old ground, but previous/ongoing actions taken to exclude the ordinal from the infobox header appear to me to be… (chooses words carefully)… ‘unjustified’. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 07:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to Deb for pointing out the old requested move. Having looked at that and doing some rummaging, I'm strongly against inclusion of the ordinal, and even think it should be removed from the first line of the introduction. We don't apply numerals that are not generally in use nor do we pander to Scottish nationalist sentiment. 'Mary I of Scotland' is about as common as 'Elizabeth I of Scotland' in gscholar searches: Mary I of ScotlandElizabeth I of Scotland. We wouldn't put 'Elizabeth I' or 'Elizabeth I and II' in the infobox of Elizabeth II. I don't think we should do it here either. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:21, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! Just… wow! That, @CeliaHomeford, was enlightening - but not for reasons you might suspect.
Puting to one side your assumptions/accusations of a political nature and veiled threats to undertake to vandalise the article’s lede, which are in themselves outrageous, your attempt to cloud the issue with references to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is nonsensical, as I am sure you are well aware that the issue surrounding the ordinal number of that former monarch of the UK during the early days of her reign was resolved under Churchill’s convention, and remained Elizabeth II.
Aside from that irrelevant detour, this article concerns a former monarch of the Kingdom of Scotland, (and Kingdom of France), for which there is no issue surrounding the ordinal number, other than its continued and unexplained absence from the heading of the infobox of the article concerned.
When sources including, for example, the government body whose “purpose is to collect, preserve and produce information about Scotland's people and history and make it available to inform current and future generations” also refers to Mary Queen of Scots as “Mary I (reigned 14 December 1542 to 24 July 1567)” then it is surely right and proper and within the MoS to reflect the correct ordinal number of that monarch in the infobox header as “Mary I” - particularly given that her Great-Great-Grandaughter, also Mary Stuart, reigned as “Mary II”.
@CeliaHomeford - I was reluctant to go down this road, but following comments by GoodDay on his/her experience, coupled with your last contribution, I now get the distinct impression that there may be editors lurking on this article who seek to prevent the inclusion of the correct ordinal in the infobox as a result of an Anglocentric attitude which manifests itself as an attempt to restrict any reference to “Mary I” exclusively to that of Mary Tudor, a.k.a Mary I of England, regardless of any other monarchs of any other kingdoms who by coincidence bear the same regal name and ordinal number. Is my impression of the presence of an Anglocentric attitude correct? Your last contribution certainly lends weight to it… 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 10:56, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don't pander to English nationalist sentiment either. Celia Homeford (talk) 11:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, nor would I expect to find the sort of crude “English nationalist sentiment” one might find in the stands of Wembley Stadium, for example, being extolled by anyone in these pages. English exceptionalism however is a far more subtle creature, quite capable of finding a bower within the red, white and blue folds of a Union Flag…
Returning to the issue at hand, a convention exists whereby in the event that the regal name of a monarch of a specific realm is repeated throughout the course of that realm’s history, an ordinal number is employed to distinguish each from the other. This is not in dispute.
In respect of Wiki articles concerning monarchs, a convention exists whereby the associated ordinal number of that monarch, with few exceptions, (William the Conqueror for example), appears in the heading of the infobox. This is not in dispute.
As noted above in an earlier post, this convention also applies to articles where the title makes no mention of an ordinal number, in William the Lion for example. This is not in dispute.
This convention similarly applies where the monarch of a particular realm shares a regal name and ordinal number with a separate and unrelated monarch, for example Henry IV of France and Henry IV of England. This is not in dispute.
Organisations which meet the criteria for a reliable source, including a government agency of the country concerned, may adopt the term “Mary I” when referring to Mary Queen of Scots. This is not in dispute.
With respect of the former realm of the Kingdom of Scotland, two individuals by the name of Mary Stuart have held the position of Queen regnant; the first from 1542-1567, the second from 1689-1694. This is not in dispute.
The title of this article is “Mary, Queen of Scots”. This is not in dispute.
What is disputed is the justification, or lack thereof, for the above convention in respect of ordinal numbers appearing on infobox headers not being applied to this article, and that for reasons unspecified this article is considered to be an exception to that convention. Why?
In answering, please refrain from insulting the intelligence of readers of this article and that of Mary I of England. If readers of Henry IV of France and Henry IV of England are capable of distinguishing between the two, despite “Henry IV” appearing in the header of both infoboxes, I am certain that the readers of Mary I of England and Mary, Queen of Scots will likewise have the mental capacity to avoid any confusion, despite the presence of “Mary I” in the header of both infoboxes.
I do not propose to edit-war on the article and am content that a decision be taken via arbitration if necessary. I look forward to contributions to the discussion from the community. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mobile editor, if you want to insert Mary I into the infobox heading? you've my support. If Scotland had a Mary II? then obviously, they had a Mary I. But, you'll need a consensus from others, first. GoodDay (talk) 23:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Duly noted. It might broaden/inform the discussion if you would care to expand further upon your grounds for supporting the inclusion of the ordinal number in the infobox header, or are you simply applying logic in that for there to have been a Mary II there had to have been a Mary I? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 06:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly how I see it. There were two Scottish queens regnant named "Mary". Also, to erase any doubt in anyone's mind? I'm certainly 'not' a Scottish nationalist or a British nationalist. GoodDay (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you - you might not upset the Scottish/British nationalists in that case, but as a self-proclaimed republican you may be prone to upsetting the royalists and monarchists out there, so tread carefully! (Just kidding). 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D460:543:80D8:7D87 (talk) 07:02, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I still don't understand the reasons for objecting to inclusion of the ordinal. I actually think it would be helpful in reducing the confusion between Mary Stuart and Mary Tudor, which partly results from British people's ignorance of their own history. Deb (talk) 08:14, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I still await the justifiable reasons for objecting to inclusion of the ordinal. So far, we’ve had a claim of confusion with a separate and unrelated historical figure, although similar scenarios exist elsewhere in Wikipedia articles, presumably as confusion-free zones. We’ve had reference to the title of the article, which is not proposed for change. We’ve had an accusation of Scottish nationalism as being the reason, which is preposterous. We’ve had a reference to Elizabeth II, which is irrelevant, and we’ve had an assertion that the term is not in common use.
On that last and final point, I am not aware of a ‘figure’ or associated ‘bar’ which must be reached or exceeded in that respect in order for a term to be considered ‘common’. Reference was made to Google Scholar, which returns almost 100 hits for Mary I of Scotland/Mary I Queen of Scotland/Mary I Queen of Scots. I’m assuming that if a term was to be found in single figures then that may be an issue, but pushing three figures? Aside from scholarly articles, the term’s use by a government agency of the country concerned would surely satisfy any criteria for a reliable source, in addition to those other reliable sources available online.
Therefore, if any member of the community would like to offer a coherent argument against following the convention for articles concerning monarchs and including the ordinal number 1 in the infobox header as “Mary I” I’d be delighted to hear it. I may even be persuaded to agree with it! 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 14:49, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: In attempting to engage with additional editors I propose to add a reference to the article’s opening sentence at “also known as - Mary I of Scotland” which will link to the National Records of Scotland web page referred to previously. (I hope that adding a link to a reliable source as a reference for an existing element of the article will be uncontroversial - we shall see). In doing so, editors who monitor the article will receive notification of the edit, and the associated remarks will refer them to this discussion. Editors who are against the inclusion of the ordinal number in the infobox header might then enlighten/persuade those of us who are in favour as to why MQoS should be an exception to the convention which applies to articles concerning monarchs. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D460:543:80D8:7D87 (talk) 07:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)  Done 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D460:543:80D8:7D87 (talk) 09:33, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As per Wikipedia:Discuss and Vote and in order to move the process along, propose moving to establishing consensus, or lack thereof, by 10/10/22, with a 7 day window to vote to the proposal:

“To include the ordinal number in the infobox header, as per the convention on similar articles, to read “Mary I””

Please continue the discussion above this section . 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D460:543:80D8:7D87 (talk) 18:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Above what section? GoodDay (talk) 16:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies…above the “Proposal” section/paragraph.2A00:23C6:B808:7701:508B:990E:B913:F285 (talk) 20:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

STRAW POLL CLOSED

Please sign below to indicate your opinion with regard to the following proposal:

”To include the ordinal number in the infobox header, as per the convention on similar articles, to read “Mary I” .”

(Poll closes on October 17, 2022)

OPPOSE
  1. The opening comment says "convention on similar articles". Well, I've just visited the first five articles on list of Scottish monarchs: no numeral, no numeral, no numeral, no numeral, no numeral. There's no convention for numerals here. Just like the first 3 of the articles I've listed here, she occasionally is given a numeral but she usually is not. DrKay (talk) 20:20, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per DrKay. Johnbod (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  3. 'Mary I of Scotland' is about as common as 'Elizabeth I of Scotland' in gscholar searches: Mary I of ScotlandElizabeth I of Scotland. We wouldn't put 'Elizabeth I' or 'Elizabeth I and II' in the infobox of Elizabeth II. I don't think we should do it here either. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:39, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SUPPORT
  1. Response to “Oppose 1.” - You listed “five” articles as examples of those without ordinal numbers, yet the names Giric and Aed (Áed mac Cináeda) do not appear to repeat themselves in the form of regal names, therefore why would they have ordinal numbers in the article infobox? A ”convention on similar articles” exists in as much that 32 of the 36 monarchs on list of Scottish monarchs who have an associated ordinal number, have their ordinal number appear in the infobox header. (Let alone those monarchs of other realms, which I have no intention of counting, but whose ordinal number likewise appears in the article’s infobox heading). Response to “Oppose 3.” - Sorry, but that’s an attempted “Straw man” or a misunderstanding of the proposal. There was never an “Elizabeth I of Scotland” as dual ordinals were only used during the period 1603-1707 (1702), and no monarch of Great Britain, or subsequently the UK, has ever used such.[1] Mary I of Scotland (1542-1567) and Mary II of Scotland (1689-1694) were both pre-Union (1707) monarchs of the Kingdom of Scotland, Elizabeth II of the UK (1952-2022) was a post-Union (1801) monarch of the United Kingdom and therefore irrelevant to this proposal. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:508B:990E:B913:F285 (talk) 19:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    2A00:23C6:B808:7701:508B:990E:B913:F285 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    …Relevance? Whatever happened to “Wikipedia:Assume good faith”? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:508B:990E:B913:F285 (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Can't confuse her with the Tudor Mary, on her own bio page :) GoodDay (talk) 20:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  3. If someone is looking for Mary I Tudor. I am sure they wouldn't have clicked on a link that said "Mary, Queen of Scots". Or see "Queen of Scotland" under her photo. I don't see why Mary should be treated different from any other monarch. If some believe it is an issue, I am all for adding a link to Mary Tudors page, similar to how Tudor's has a link to Scots' (Excuse the poor wording, I don't know the term for 'not to be confused with X' next to the disambiguation links). EmilySarah99 (talk) 09:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This is almost a repeat of an older discussion which occurred at the time the article was moved. I see no reason not to use the ordinal and I think it could help clear up confusion. Deb (talk) 15:35, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Royal Central; The Problem with Elizabeth II's Regal Number". royalcentral.co.uk. 2020-03-13. Retrieved 2022-10-11.

Conclusion

As “a means to help in determining consensus”, it would be fair to conclude that the Straw Poll suggests such does not exist in respect of the proposed change. It would also be fair, (happy to be otherwise informed), to conclude that a compromise position is unlikely - the ordinal number is either included in the infobox header, or it is not.

As a means of achieving some form of resolution, I would propose progressing to the next stage “by soliciting an outside opinion”.

Any objections/suggestions? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:2D1C:EAFC:4420:5F89 (talk) 21:26, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Next steps

Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

2A00:23C6:B808:7701:E8C5:7383:9B84:E222 (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion has since moved to Talk:Mary, Queen of Scots/RFC on Number. DrKay (talk) 18:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Main photo

The main photo displayed on this article is very deceptive in my opinion and it depicts Mary at a very young age (16). She died later on and is more thought of with the 1578 portrait (in an older sense). I wondered if anyone else thought it would be more appropriate to use the 1578 Hilliard portrait or c. 1560 widow portrait by Clouet. (talk) 01:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date

8 December is not for sure the confirmed date - if anyone bothered to read Wormald’s book, she said it’s still clearly debated. I know most people use the feast day as proof for it being 8 December, but it’s still plausible considering 7 December was one day from it. The fact that one of Mary’s own supporters claimed the seventh can’t be ignored. Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 06:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not ignored. It's in the article, where it's given due weight. DrKay (talk) 08:26, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then why is it listed as just 8 December when either date is considered? It’s misleading Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 09:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmnn. Looking at this again, User:Celia Homeford said in an edit summary 'only Knox says the 7th', but it's actually Lesley that says the 7th. I think we need to look at the balance of sources, and take our cue from them. How many sources say the 7th? How many say the 7th or 8th? And how many say the 8th? What dates are these sources, i.e. is modern scholarship more accepting of one date or the other? Perhaps we should list and see how many say one and how many the other? Looking at the range below, most ignore the 7th, not mentioning it at all. So, at the moment, I'm still thinking that per WP:PROPORTION it should be mentioned because it is sourced but it should be restricted to a footnote because it is not the predominant view. Promoting it from a footnote to the first line of the article body gives it too much prominence and undue weight. DrKay (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops! Mea culpa. I did of course mean Lesley. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 7th:
  1. https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100137949
  • 7th or 8th:
  1. Jenny Wormald (1988) p.11
  2. Antonia Fraser (1994) p.13
  3. Alison Weir (1996) Britain's Royal Families p.243
  • 8th:
  1. Gordon Donaldson (1974) p.19
  2. John Hunter (1996) Mary Stuart p.5
  3. John Guy (2004) p.12
  4. Julian Goodare (2004) ODNB
  5. Alison Weir (2008) p.7
  6. Susan Watkins (2009) Mary Queen of Scots p.7
  7. Rosalind Marshall (2013) p.9
  8. Linda Porter (historian) (2013) Crown of Thistles p.289
  9. https://www.royal.uk/mary-queen-scots-r1542-1567
  10. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mary-queen-of-Scotland
  11. https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/elizabeth-i-mary-queen-scots
  12. https://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/int/hist/mary/factfile/index.shtml?factfile=timeline
  13. https://www.historyscotland.com/history/mary-queen-of-scots-was-born-on-this-day-in-scottish-history/
  14. https://www.rct.uk/sites/default/files/resources/Mary%2C%20Queen%20of%20Scots%20factsheet.pdf
Rosalind K. Marshall (Mary Queen of Scots: Truth or Lies, 2014) also says she became queen when 6 days old i.e. born on 8th. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mary queen of scots descendants

To whom it may concern, Elizabeth 1 queen of Englands jealousy had her cousin mary murdered for power over scotland. Held her captive long enough to change laws to prove her plot against Elizabeth, so mary could be executed legally. This took 18.5 years of Mary being incarcerated . Religious zealots Roman catholics and protestants are guilty as well for Mary's execution by Elizabeth's court. Shame on you all. Stole Mary's treasure and hidden all these century's in New Scotland. Long live thee queen. By Mother Mary's son. Thomas Allen Tauberschmidt. ESQ. Great Great grandson of Mary queen of Scotland. Verified. All empowered by Mary's execution is cursed. 199.167.89.52 (talk) 07:38, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for this helpful contribution. Deb (talk) 08:46, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
:-P Yes - it brought new knowledge to mankind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.34.67 (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The irony here is that our present Queen is not a direct descendant of Elizabeth I but is directly descended from Queen Mary...--2A00:23C4:3E08:4001:1576:6851:2D46:9826 (talk) 13:39, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bit out of date there.... Nobody is a direct descendant of ER I. Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on Regnal Number in Infobox

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The numbers are approximately equal so there is no consensus to include the regnal number at the top of the infobox. Gusfriend (talk) 05:31, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should the regnal number I be included at the top of the infobox, so that the caption will be Mary I? GoodDay (talk) 04:10, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Enter Yes or No with a brief explanation in the Survey. Do not reply to other editors in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion is permitted in the Discussion section.

Survey

Discussion

User:DrKay… In recycling spurious comparisons with regal titles which never existed, are you deliberately trying to confuse matters in order to try to justify your opposition? As a participant in previous discussions, surely you are aware that online references to “Elizabeth I of Scotland” concern the unsuccessful nationalist campaign in the early years of Elizabeth II’s reign (and revived albeit briefly by Winnie Ewing), to prevent her from using the ordinal number “II” in Scotland. There was never an “Elizabeth I of Scotland” at any time in Scotland’s history, or can you provide reliable sources to the contrary? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:57A:94E1:E11:2B29 (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I already did. DrKay (talk) 20:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Where? I must have missed the reliable source stating that Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor adopted “Elizabeth I of Scotland” amongst her various styles and titles. Perhaps you would be kind enough to repeat it below. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:57A:94E1:E11:2B29 (talk) 20:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? You do know Mary, Queen of Scots, never in her lifetime adopted the numeral I among any of her titles and styles? It's an innovation by others, just like Elizabeth I. DrKay (talk) 20:56, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So why is it okay to use it in retrospect for Elizabeth I and not for Mary I? And why is it okay to use it for Mary I of England (who didn't use that title in her lifetime) and not for Mary I of Scotland? Deb (talk) 11:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Already explained. Try reading instead of responding. DrKay (talk) 11:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I’m reluctant to mention the following for fear of prolonging this muddying of the waters, but just to point out that James VI & I actually used the regal numeral “I” during his lifetime. (Can I invite DrKay to consult ”Expectations of Adminship” before responding, thank you). 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:9537:FC6B:A8B3:1ECD (talk) 22:59, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are muddying the waters by introducing a straw man that is not contentious and raising a completely unrelated behavioural guideline. This RfC isn't about me or my behavior. You need to go to other venues for issues about contributors. DrKay (talk) 09:22, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fret not re. “other venues”. On the subject of “straw men” and matters “not contentious”, I noted your recent edit to your objection/contribution at the now closed Straw Poll, where presumably in an effort to add weight to your argument you added articles to your list of those not having ordinal numbers in the infobox header by including articles of monarchs whose names only appear once at List of Scottish monarchs, and which in respect of modern regnal lists would not therefore have an associated ordinal number. Curious… 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:9537:FC6B:A8B3:1ECD (talk) 08:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are mistaken. My last substantive edit to the straw poll was on 10 October, more than a month ago, when it was still open [4]. It is unfortunate that at least two editors have sought to influence the debate by making incorrect statements about me. Statements about me do not belong in this discussion, even when they are true. They certainly do not belong when, as in this case, they are false. They should be struck out. DrKay (talk) 17:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Talking of matters requiring to be “struck out”, your survey contribution above continues to link to three sources which, presumably, are there to support your assertion that “Mary I of England and Mary I of Scotland are frequently confused”. As an admin who regularly edits history-related articles, particularly historical royals, taken at face value that’s a weighty contribution to make to the debate. However, as I pointed out at length below but which you have conveniently ignored, on closer inspection these links have nothing to do with confusion in respect of ordinal numbers, as your “Mary I of England and Mary I of Scotland are frequently confused” would suggest, but rather with “Mary Queen of Scots and Bloody Mary” - NOT THE TERMS WHICH YOU HAVE STATED “are frequently confused”. Yet here we are, and despite my pointing out your presumably unintended linking of articles which, on closer inspection, do not support your assertion, the assertion persists. Curious… 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D9C4:151C:25F0:A87A (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A valid point, but the reliable source for “Elizabeth of Scotland” as one of her late majesty’s styles and titles please. College of Arms, Lyon Court, Hansard? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:57A:94E1:E11:2B29 (talk) 21:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You mean apart from the ones you added, when you were still using your account?[5][6] DrKay (talk) 21:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One line in a single speech by a politician? I was hoping you’d find something more substantive, but I think we both know that isn’t likely, because despite the best efforts of Sir David Steel, it’s not a title which she adopted, inherited, was granted, awarded or was used in any sense. One instance does not make a generality or a trend. Any others? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:57A:94E1:E11:2B29 (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've already linked to 39 above. Stop wasting everyone's time. DrKay (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I’ve seen your 39. Of those, did you check how many related to the failed campaign by the nationalists? You can judge their success by the numbers of pillar boxes in Scotland bearing the cypher “ER”, as opposed to “EIIR” - there are precisely zero, (of either), by the way. When he assumes the title William V, if I start an online campaign to have him be known as William IV in Scotland, will that make it so, simply because I and a few others may say it and a few dozen ghits turn up as a result? Of course not. As for “wasting everyone’s time”… one word… “Elizabeth”. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:57A:94E1:E11:2B29 (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this RFC not taking place on the BLP's talkpage? GoodDay (talk) 04:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:GoodDay - Because you, GoodDay, tried to fix something that wasn't broken, not knowing what you were doing. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you may be correct. I may have kicked the football, before it was put in place. GoodDay (talk) 06:57, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:DrKay and others, "Do not reply to other editors in the Survey" means do not reply to other editors in the Survey. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

DrKay, in my summary proposing the change to the infobox header, I touched upon the issue of confusion, but couched my terms in a manner which I hope would not to give the impression of “fact” where I was unable to provide reliable sources to support such. Specifically I state “without any apparent confusion”. I would hope that the use of the term “apparent” would be sufficient to avoid any inference that there were reliable sources citing empirical research to support that statement. In your summary opposing the change to the infobox header, you also touch upon the issue of confusion, but your statement reads “Mary I of England and Mary I of Scotland are frequently confused”. In my opinion, that statement reads as fact, and links to three external sources:

  • History with Henry This author states “Is Bloody Mary, Mary Queen of Scots? This is a question that I see all over the internet”. Firstly, and no disrespect to “Henry”, I’m not sure of his credentials as to a “reliable source”, therefore I can only take Henry’s opinion as opinion, not fact. Secondly, Henry’s argument does not appear to concern ordinals but rather the term “Bloody”, which having read his piece would suggest that the bloody execution by means of beheading of Mary, Queen of Scots, leads some, according to Henry, to think that the term “Bloody Mary” refers to Mary, Queen of Scots and not Mary Tudor, a.k.a Mary I of England. Henry does not touch upon any aspect of confusion over the ordinal number, therefore please feel free to remove the link to ‘History with Henry’ as it is not relevant to the ordinal.
  • Quora: “Are Mary Queen of Scots and Bloody Mary the same?” A “global online platform for asking questions and providing answers”, Quora is a depository for any number of weird and wonderful queries, for example ”Do aliens really exist?, “Did the Mafia kill JFK, etc. Again, this doesn’t necessarily meet the criteria for “reliable”. Furthermore, the link again concerns apparent confusion over the term “Bloody”, (as per Henry’s website), and not the ordinal. Therefore once again, please feel to remove the link to “Quora” as it is not relevant to the ordinal.
  • Elizabethan England Life is a website whose author, (Prasad Mahabal), has an M A in “Science and Technological Developments in Ancient Civilizations” and is a self confessed “anglophile who loves English history and culture and likes writing about it”. This website includes a statement by the author that “Mary I, Queen of England (Mary Tudor) is sometimes confused with Mary, Queen of Scots”, which is the opinion of the author. However, once again the author, as per Henry and Quora, takes us to “bloody’: “Why was Mary Queen of Scots called Bloody Mary? Are Mary Queen of Scots and Bloody Mary the same? No, they are different people. Queen Mary I of England is the bloody Mary.” So once again, the issue surrounds apparent confusion over the term “bloody”, and not the ordinals. Once again, please feel free etc. etc.

I cannot dispute anyone’s opinion that confusion may exist or sometimes exists between the two Marys, as I have no facts with which to refute such, but your statement, (together with the above links), reads as fact. Firstly, we should avoid presenting opinion as fact, and secondly the issue here surrounds the ordinal number and not confusion, whether actual or inferred, resulting from the term “Bloody Mary” being wrongly attributed to Mary, Queen of Scots. In my opinion, the inclusion of the ordinal number in the infobox header will have zero net effect over the confusion described by your links. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:9537:FC6B:A8B3:1ECD (talk) 11:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]


(New comment)

Celia Homeford. Your comment above that “calling her Mary I in articles where there is another person called Mary I is frankly foolish” intrigues me. What do you suggest we do to resolve the “frankly foolish” situation whereby Henry IV of England, Henry IV of Castile, Henry IV of France and Henry IV of the Holy Roman Empire all refer to “Henry IV” despite three other articles existing where there is another person called “Henry IV”? (In addition to the main body of text, “Henry IV” appears in the infobox header, as per the proposal here for “Mary I”). Despite multiple separate individuals from separate kingdoms sharing the same regal name and ordinal number throughout history, why would it be “foolish” for “Mary I” to appear in the infobox header of just two articles, when “Henry IV” appears without apparent objection in the infobox header of four articles? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:9537:FC6B:A8B3:1ECD (talk) 12:19, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They should be disambiguated. Celia Homeford (talk) 12:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, it's really not necessary to bludgeon the debate, especially when you have numbers on your side. Give it a rest for a while. I for one am certainly not interested in a protracted discussion of a single digit. For that reason, I avoided the dispute resolution noticeboard. From hints in the discussion, I assume that this is about something deeper, a personal grudge arising from a previous account or a desire to move the article back to Mary I of Scotland. Going to these lengths (extensive discussion, straw poll, dispute resolution, RfC) for a single, unimportant digit is ... extreme. Celia Homeford (talk) 12:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But it's probably not a good idea to label other people's opinions "foolish" if you don't want to prolong the debate. Deb (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rest assured Celia Homeford I have no motive other than to improve the article, albeit as you say, by a single digit, and also find it incredible that editors will go to such lengths to prevent its inclusion. Had I been convinced by any of the arguments presented by those who oppose, then I certainly wouldn’t still be here. But here we are… because, as in the case of your “they should be disambiguated”, the reason given applies to article titles, not the infobox header, as is evident by articles concerning “Henry IV”, where there is no requirement to disambiguate an infobox header. Regards… 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:9537:FC6B:A8B3:1ECD (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They should be disambiguated within the same article, so that it's clear which is being referred to at any point. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Surely, the article title would be self evidently sufficient in order to distinguish the individuals being referred to - as per the four articles concerning Henry IV? 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:8DAE:3FC5:6D46:993E (talk) 19:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So, when I write "John of Gaunt was the great-grandfather of Henry IV" and later on in the same article "John of Gaunt was the great-grandfather of Henry VI", and later still "Henry VI's grandfather was Henry IV", you think that's all "self evident" and no further disambiguation is necessary? You really think no-one who reads those sentences will be confused? If I write, "In Scotland, James VI and I was preceded by Mary I, who was preceded by James V. While in England, James VI and I was preceded by Elizabeth I, who was preceded by Mary I." You really think no disambiguation within the article is necessary, because it's "self evident" to whom I refer? Disambiguation within the same article is obviously necessary. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My point is simply if the four articles which concern Henry IV of England, Henry IV of Castile, Henry IV of France and Henry IV of the Holy Roman Empire can coexist, with “Henry IV” appearing in each infobox header and presumably sufficient disambiguation within each article’s title and content so as not to confuse the reader, why do you not agree that the same should be possible for Mary, Queen of Scots and Mary I of England were they also to show “Mary I” in the infobox header? What is so unique about Mary I versus Henry IV where the infobox header is concerned? (Again, I stress there is no desire to change any article title). 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D9C4:151C:25F0:A87A (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don't apply numerals that are not generally in use. Perhaps you missed the last 3 times I said this?[7][8][9] No, of course you didn't, because you replied each time[10][11][12], just like you reply every time anyone posts anything. See Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:53, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
”Not generally in use” you say? Thanks to your kindly steering me around the intricacies of ghits and how to pin down a number, we established about 840 ghits for MQoS as “Mary I” and about 100 gscholar hits for the same, agreed? Therefore, given your not taking me up on explaining “what is so unique about Mary I versus Henry IV where the infobox is header is concerned”, can we discount confusion as the issue and concentrate instead upon “generally in use”. Where is the benchmark for “generally in use” which might, for example, explain where a term which shows about 840 ghits and about 100 gscholar hits falls short? (PS Sorry to be a pain… Having read the field guide to ‘bludgeoning’, I’ll leave you all to it…) 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D9C4:151C:25F0:A87A (talk) 20:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't. You should always write "Mary I of Scotland" and "Mary I of England" where there is any likelihood of confusion. You should always write "Henry VI of England" and "Henry IV of England" - and that's how articles were titled until a group of people decided that English kings are immediately recognisable by their numeral. Deb (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In an earlier discussion concerning the proposed inclusion of the ordinal number in the infobox header for MQoS, an editor informed me that my edit would be confusing as “she gets confused with Mary I quite a lot”. It simply never occurred to that editor that their “Mary I” was not the same individual as my “Mary I”. There appeared to be an assumption that any discussion of “Mary I” automatically defaults to Mary I of England / Mary Tudor / Bloody Mary and a lack of appreciation that other nationalities use this site who may not share the same history/historical perspective. The assumption on my part was that the “English” in “English Wikipedia” only referred to the language. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D9C4:151C:25F0:A87A (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Posted for info, without comment:

I could go on… 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:D9C4:151C:25F0:A87A (talk) 20:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name

"Mary" signed letters and documents as "Marie", later: "Marie R (R = Regina). Should this be noted somewhere? I can't find an example now, but I believe she also spelled it "Mari". E.g.: [13], [14] 136.54.99.98 (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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