Talk:Vladislav Doronin

wife

Kristina Romanova, fashion model — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.6.112.123 (talk) 11:12, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Citizenship

Vladislav Doronin has never had Russian citizenship. He was born in the Soviet Union and denounced his Soviet citizenship in 1986. He was a political refugee and ultimately became a Swedish citizen in 1992. As sourced by biographical information including: Aspen Daily News Vogue Business The New York Times and The Denver Post CharlotteAman (talk) 15:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Removal of exact address

WP:BLPPRIVACY clearly states, "If a subject complains about our inclusion...err on the side of caution..." Doronin opposes the inclusion of this detail. Furthermore, WP:BLPPRIVACY also says, "...articles should not include postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons...If you see personal information such as phone numbers, addresses, account numbers, etc. in a BLP or anywhere on Wikipedia, edit the page to remove it..." This detail, regardless of the amount of coverage, should not be included. CharlotteAman (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Undue weight and unencyclopedic content

Recent additions to this article have inserted content that is both irrelevant and unencyclopedic. There is excessive detail about all of Doronin's legal issues which do not warrant a section of their own. As an owner of several global businesses and a private citizen, Doronin has been involved in legal proceedings of various kinds. There is no encyclopedic necessity to detail them all in the article about Doronin, particularly as some of the cases are still pending.

Similarly, the sources used do not necessarily support the content added. For example, there is nothing in this source, used as source 38, to support that Doronin spends "a large part of his time" in Miami. He is a real estate developer with homes in Miami and many other places.

Asking the editing community to ensure that this article remains encyclopedic, proportional, and factual. CharlotteAman (talk) 10:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Dear @CharlotteAman, thank you for pointing out the flaws in the article: in particular, "large part of his time. I will try to check this fact in other sources and fix it. Are there other things to pay attention to? DrDavidLivesey (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

DrDavidLivesey much of the content you have added over the past few weeks has put undue weight on old and unencyclopedic aspects of this article. Specifically:

• The last paragraph of the Legal issues section about OOO Ballini is about a company Doroning founded, not about him; it does not belong on his BLP and would be relevant for an article about OOO Balini if it existed, which it does not.
• The details about Doronin's friendship with Leonardo DiCaprio lack proportion and accuracy. Many sources used are listed as unreliable or lacking consensus for their reliability and are inappropriate for use in the encyclopedia. And even if the unusable sources were legitimate for use, the content therein does not suggest or state that DiCaprio is "One of Doronin's closest friends..." or that "The two spend much time together and regularly spend holidays in Doronin's villa..." Neither the Ria article nor the RGRU article, both about DiCaprio's meeting with Putin, mention Doronin. The BBC source used as #60 does not actually mention Doronin.
• The picture in the personal section was not only done incorrectly but is also inappropriate for inclusion in Doronin's BLP.

Please remedy these inaccuracies and refrain from adding unsubstantiated and irrelevant content to this article. I am asking users Keith D, Nikkimaria, and Greenman, who have recently edited this article and/or seen other articles you have attempted to create, to join this discussion. CharlotteAman (talk) 09:32, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Doronin's apartment in City of Capitals and in One Hyde Park. (diff 1117181077)

Hi CharlotteAman. Thank you for the comments you left for each deletion. The bland deletion without discussion looks like the beginning of WP:WAR to me. In most cases, the editor can just insert templates at the request of better sources.

In my opinion, this is the wrong deletion. Specifically on your claims:

"insertion of residential information"

Mentioning a residence, without an exact postal address, does not violate WP:BLP WP:BLPPRIVACY rules. Where it refers only to a specific postal address.

"unencyclopedic language"

First of all I assume your good faith, although I understand that you are in a conflict of interest, according to your statement you work for Doronin. But I would just like to point out that some users may perceive your statement as Content authoritarianism WP:IKNOWBEST Ignoring Overwhelming Opposition (It's not a guideline, but an essay.)

"that Doronin has apartments in City of Capitals"

The sources for "that Doronin has apartments in City of Capitals" were indeed not contain (by the way, you wrongfully accused me that this is my edit, because this information was added by user with IP 87.239.248.75 of August 31, 2016. diff 737011355

Regarding the fact of ownership, there is indeed a factual error here. Since these apartments in City of Capitals are owned by Doronin's 83 year old mother - Zinaida. Caught in the City. Which of the "VIPs" moves to the capital's skyscrapers (Google Translate)

"arguably London's most prestigious residential address..."

The fact that Doronin owns apartments in One Hyde Park is mentioned in many reputable publications, including those cited in the article Vanity Fair and NY Times

The phrase "arguably London's most prestigious residential address..." mentioned in the Telegraph Telegraph (reliable source).

. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 01:28, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I've restored the ownership of the One Hyde Park apartment, but One Hyde Park has its own article, and a link to it should be enough. RAN1 (talk) 11:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

DrDavidLivesey It is not an edit war unless you reinsert the information which has no place in this article. Doronin falls into Wikipedia's category of a non-public figure; while he is notable enough for an article, his entry should focus on the things that make him notable. Specifically, the rules explicitly state, "...exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources..." Just because something is mentioned in a news article (or interview), it doesn't necessarily warrant mention in a BLP, especially if the information is unrelated to the person's notability. I see RAN1 added Hyde Park back to the page, but in a sensible, non-sensational way. The New York Times article includes a passing mention of Doronin's ownership in that complex, but it is about Candy and his apartment, not Doronin. Furthermore, the fact that one source uses superlatives to describe a property does not mean it needs to be perpetuated in an encyclopedic article, specifically a BLP. CharlotteAman (talk) 11:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

QiGong (diff 1117181231)

Hi CharlotteAman. In my opinion, this is the wrong deletion. In an interview with the Russian tvchannel Dozhd, Doronin says directly that Qigong and Qigong's masters help cure diseases and cancer in particular.

Doronin: From various diseases, they can even stop cancer. This is serious, serious masters who have been seriously doing this for many years. This is very helpful for health. And the second is martial arts, it was used in its time. This was a closed theory, it was only allowed to be used by emperors, monks and his entourage. It was forbidden to ordinary people.

Source (Google Translate): "Before this interview, I remained in the shadows." Vladislav Doronin about qigong energy, advice to the government and parting with Naomi Campbell

Although the interview can be regarded as a primary source (according to this essay: Wikipedia:Interviews), the fact mentioned is so small and only adds to Doronin's motives for practicing Qigong.

But in any case, this fact is not so crucial as to remove the entire paragraph on Qigong. Qigong is important to Doronin, and there are many sources Curbed (NYMag WP:RSP), RobbReport, and many others)-where it mentions his practice.

It was enough to put a template. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 01:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

DrDavidLivesey Adding any template to this and other material you have added to Doronin's article would suggest that the content has a place in the article, which it does not. As indicated in my previous response, Wikipedia entries for non-public figures do not need to include every trivial fact about that person's hobbies, interests, and wellness routine. Furthermore, the extraneous details you included about the healing and treatment properties of Qigong are not supported in any of the sources and introduce information that is both irrelevant and unnecessary. CharlotteAman (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Dear @CharlotteAman could you point out the wikipedia guideline (other than this non-public figure rule, which obviously does not apply to the subject is a public figure) according to which you think what information about Qigong should be on Wiki and what should not?

What specific fact about Doronin's Qigong practice contradicts the rules, given that Doronin himself and journalists constantly talk about Qigong in Doronin's life? Where exactly am I breaking the rules? No offense, but I just want to understand. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 22:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Doronin's friends: Dennis Hopper and Tony Shafrazi. (diff 1117179707)

Hi CharlotteAman. In my opinion, this is the wrong deletion. Again here you are also right that the source is missing, but you could just mention it with a templates for such situations: {{Unr}} {{Better source needed}} {{fv}} {{Unreliable source?}}

Reliable source about the friendship of Shafrazi and Doronin The Times

Today Doronin is estimated to be worth about $1.6 billion. He has homes in London, Ibiza, Moscow, Miami and New York, and an extensive collection of Russian and international artworks. This ranges from early life drawings by El Lissitzky and Malevich (“I couldn’t afford paintings at that time, so I bought drawings”) to a growing number of contemporary American works by Edward Ruscha, Jeff Koons and Dennis Hopper, a friend whose personal photographs Doronin bought near the end of the actor-turned-photographer’s life.

Source about the friendship of Hopper and Doronin: Evening Standard WP:RSP Although there is no consensus on the reliability of the Evening Standard. Despite being a free newspaper, it is generally considered more reliable than most British tabloids and middle-market newspapers. But this particular article can be considered credible because it is editorial content.

I pass through a hall lined with black and white photographs by Dennis Hopper and he tells me about his collection — how his friend, the New York gallery owner and dealer Tony Shafrazi, taught him about contemporary art and encouraged him to start collecting American pop art: Edward Ruscha, Richard Prince, Jeff Koons and Hopper, the actor turned photographer.

. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 01:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

DrDavidLivesey Again, I remind you of the guidelines for the encyclopedic content of a non-public figure. Doronin has many friends, that some- or any- are mentioned in articles does not make it worthy of inclusion in his Wikipedia entry. Similarly, nothing in the content of these questionable sources suggests that they are "prominent" as you posited in your edit. The same is true of the unencyclopedic nature of the information about Doronin and DiCaprio's friendship which you added. It doesn't warrant mention nor do the sources support that he is "One of Doronin's closest friends." I fully explained all this on my Talk page response which you ignored. CharlotteAman (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

RfC extraneous details and unreliable sources

DrDavidLivesey has edited the page continuously for several weeks, adding information that is unencyclopedic in nature, substantiated by poor or questionable sources, and generally gives  undue weight to many aspects of this  non-public figure's Wikipedia article. I have addressed specific issues on the  Talk page  but have gotten no response. Asking for additional editors to review and comment in an effort to restore this entry's balance and encyclopedic nature. CharlotteAman (talk) 12:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• CharlotteAman, I have removed the RfC tag, as this is not a proper RfC. The statement for an RfC must be neutral (such as "Is version X (diff) or version Y (diff) superior?"), and yours is anything but. You are, of course, welcome to put your own opinion as a comment on the RfC, but not to front-load as the statement for the RfC itself. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 13:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Doronin is a public figure, not a non-public one.

Dear @CharlotteAman, I would like to draw your attention to the following fact about the status of the subject. You mention several times that Doronin is a non-public figure (mentioned here: [1] [2] [3] [4])

But this is incorrect.

Let's take a closer look at whether the person is a public or non-public person. A more detailed essay describes the criteria here Who is a low-profile individual:

in a nutshell: A low-profile individual is a person, usually notable for only one event, who has not sought public attention.

In my humble opinion, billionaire Doronin is definitely a public figure.: According to a description (WP:PUBLICFIGURE) the high-profile person is one who (By Media attention High-profile): Has given one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication, website, podcast, or television or radio program, as a "media personality"

Doronin is regularly interviewed by major media ( including industry niche publications) and TV channels: forbes, The Times, Vladislav Doronin interviewed by CNBC,GQ, Architectural Digest,NY Times, Tatler. This is just what I found with a quick search.

Would you agree that this does not sound like a low-profile person? Thus, it turns out that Doronin is definitely not a low-profile person, but a public figure. therefore, the rules of public figures can be applied to him, and in particular:

In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.

Please understand that I am not writing this to abuse you or Doronin, but only to follow the rules of Wikipedia. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 22:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

BLP Content

Hello. I'd like to ask for the removal of the following information from the article, as it is excessive, inaccurate, or unwarranted, especially in a BLP:

*The last paragraph of the Legal issues section, which focuses on the OOO Ballini company, not about Doronin.

*Deletion or modification of the details about Doronin's friendship with Leonardo DiCaprio. The categorization of DiCaprio as "One of Doronin's closest friends..." and the assertion that "The two spend much time together and regularly spend holidays in Doronin's villa..." are not supported by the sources provided. Similarly, the sources used are listed as unreliable or lacking consensus for their reliability and do not substantiate these statements. Furthermore, neither the Ria article nor the RGRU article, both about DiCaprio's meeting with Putin, mention Doronin, and neither does [https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-11836702 the BBC source used as #60].

Thank you for your help. CharlotteAman (talk) 08:02, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I rephrased the legal issue for clarity after reviewing the sources. The BBC article is a source for Putin being present at the November 2010 St. Petersburg event, so I left it in. I did strike out a source that was citing the Daily Mail and removed the assertion that he's a close friend of DiCaprio. I think that answers your concerns. RAN1 (talk) 12:34, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

RAN1, thanks so much for your assistance here, I appreciate you taking the time to go over my requests. Re the BBC source- it does confirm that Putin was present, but does not mention Doronin at all. My original issue was with the inclusion of that questionably-noteworthy/relevant information in the article, which appears to rely on feeble sourcing as well, but I defer to your judgement. I will likely put up another request in the future, and will reach out to you then, if that's ok. Thanks again. CharlotteAman (talk) 09:48, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Updates and suggestions

Hi, I'd like to suggest the following changes to the article:

• Updating the second sentence in the lead to be more concise, and to reflect Doronin's current position, as follows:

He is the owner and chairman of Aman Resorts, chairman and CEO of OKO Group, and co-founder of Capital Group.

(The other Capital Group co-founders are listed in the body of the article, as well as in the infobox.)

• Removing excess detail from the Capital Group subsection, which elaborates on OKO despite the information being more appropriate for, and already included in, the complex's article, as follows:

In 2013 Doronin’s Capital Group formed a joint venture with Gavriil Yushvaev, a Russian entrepreneur, for the construction of OKO — a mixed-use (commercial and residential) highrise development in the Moscow City district of Moscow. OKO, the construction of which was completed in 2015, became Europe’s third tallest skyscraper. In 2016 55,000 sq.m. of office space in the OKO development was sold to the Government of Moscow.

• Removing the Other ventures subsection paragraph beginning "In March 2022..." as this content refers to OKO business operations, and seems more appropriate for the OKO Group article, not an article focused on Doronin himself.

Pinging RAN1 who reviewed the previous request, in case he has a moment to take a look at these as well. Thanks for your help, CharlotteAman (talk) 17:52, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, @CharlotteAman

I tried to make changes according to your comments:

• WP:Lead:
  • FROM:
  • He, together with Pavel Tio and Eduard Berman, is the founder of Moscow-based Capital Group, owner and chairman of Aman Resorts, and chairman and CEO of OKO Group.
  • TO:
  • He is the owner and chairman of Aman Resorts, chairman and CEO of OKO Group, and together with Pavel Tio and Eduard Berman, is the founder of Moscow-based Capital Group.
  • Note: Put Capital Group at the end. Although they are mentioned below, did not remove the cofounders because, they are important part of subject's business carrier and his wealth (prior Aman and OKO). See Larry Page, William Procter, Bill Hewlett,
• Capital Group subsection:
  • FROM
  • In 2013 Doronin’s Capital Group formed a joint venture with Gavriil Yushvaev, a Russian entrepreneur, for the construction of OKO — a mixed-use (commercial and residential) highrise development in the Moscow City district of Moscow. OKO, the construction of which was completed in 2015, became Europe’s third tallest skyscraper. In 2016 55,000 sq.m. of office space in the OKO development was sold to the Government of Moscow.
  • TO
  • In 2013 Doronin’s Capital Group formed a joint venture with Gavriil Yushvaev, a Russian entrepreneur, for the construction of OKO — a mixed-use (commercial and residential) highrise development in the Moscow International Business Center. In 2016 55,000 sq.m. of office space in the OKO development was sold to the Government of Moscow.
  • Note: Technical details were removed, but significant deal was kept.
• Other ventures
  • I propose that we leave it at that. This is widely covered news in RS where only Doronin is mentioned ("Doronin paid" etc), but not the companies. In addition, I could not find any RS where this information refer to OKO Group, in most NOT RS (tabloids) it refers to Aman.

DrDavidLivesey (talk) 22:28, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Highlighting the issues which remain unaddressed in this edit request:

• In the lead: the other co-founders are not noteworthy enough to be included in the lead. While in some cases, additional individuals might be listed as a result of their own notability, in this case, having their names in the History section is sufficient. What is the significant relevance of Capital Group's headquarters here?
• Regarding OKO- mention of this deal does not enhance the article focused on Doronin himself; the deal is already included in the OKO article, as is appropriate.
• Regarding the "Other ventures" information- the sources all state the purchase was made by OKO Group, not by Doronin himself, even those that mention Doronin in the headline.

Thanks, CharlotteAman (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@CharlotteAman: I did the third point as requested. I'm not actually sure what you mean by the second point. I think the first one is worth discussing but my initial question is for @DrDavidLivesey: Do you know if the redlinked topics can sustain articles? If they can't, the links should be replaced with plain text per WP:REDLINK. RAN1 (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks RAN1 for taking a look. I will try to clarify my requests.

• Regarding the notability of those mentioned in the lead, I look forward to a discussion about this and the suitability of including these names in the lead section of this article. DrDavidLivesey has previously submitted these drafts (via AfC), perhaps the sources he included in those attempts could shed some light on the notability question. My opinion on their notability has been stated above, and I welcome the opinion of a neutral third party.
• In the Capital Group subsection on OKO there is excessive detail about the building that does not seem particularly relevant to a BLP about Doronin. My suggestion is to modify the text to remove the superfluous information as follows:

In 2013 Doronin’s Capital Group formed a joint venture with Gavriil Yushvaev, a Russian entrepreneur, for the construction of OKO — a mixed-use (commercial and residential) highrise development in the Moscow City district of Moscow. OKO, the construction of which was completed in 2015, became Europe’s third tallest skyscraper. In 2016 55,000 sq.m. of office space in the OKO development was sold to the Government of Moscow.

• The details of the March 2022 purchase of the Aspen Mountain property are most appropriately positioned in the OKO article, as it relates to OKO business operations and transactions, not to Doronin himself.

Thanks again for taking a look and for your thoughtful review of my request. CharlotteAman (talk) 20:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Actualcpscm (talk) 11:37, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Excessive detail and unencyclopedic content

At the suggestion of Seraphimblade I am bringing my concerns about the excessive details and unencyclopedic content that is included in this BLP. Specific examples include:

• Details about property features and purchases that are better suited for the articles related to those companies
• Superfluous details about friendships and art interests
• Extensive content relating to legal issues

I have posted a marked-up version of this article in my userspace as a way of directly highlighting all the examples of this kind of content. Yellow indicates content that seems excessive and/or unencyclopedic. Blue is material that is encyclopedic, but not relevant to the BLP; this content belongs on the existing pages of these companies (and in many cases is already detailed there). I'd appreciate a thorough review of the article and welcome the community's input on this request. CharlotteAman (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Dear @CharlotteAman,

All of the yellow highlights you cited in the copy of the article are facts from reliable sources that directly mention Vladislav Doronin, and companies only as his place of employment. And according to the fact that Vladislav Doronin is a public figure and WP:PUBLICFIGURE: these facts, even negative ones, can be included in the article.  If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article-even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.

Furthermore, removing such information leads to the article looking like a promotion, which is against the rules of WP:NPOV and WP:NOTADVERT, which state that Wikipedia articles about a person, company or organization are not an extension of their website, press releases, or other social media marketing efforts. (Also see essay WP:IBA)

Other editors can correct me if I'm wrong. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 00:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

DrDavidLivesy,

I am confused by this recent contribution of yours, which I've removed directly because it was inappropriate for inclusion and referenced WP:PAGESIX. How was that information pertinent for inclusion in a BLP?

As we seem to have an ongoing difference of opinion about appropriate content for a WP:BLP, I would greatly appreciate input and ongoing oversight from other editors including RAN1, Seraphimblade and PhilKnight as they've looked into this page in the past. Having them look at this discussion, as well as the recent edits to the article, would be helpful.

• I am aware of the cited guidelines. My edit request above relies on WP:COATRACK, WP:TMI and WP:NOTNEWS for the removal of unencyclopedic, irrelevant, and excessive content.

• You refernced WP:NPOV: My COI is declared. I have been working within Wikipedia's guidelines for months. I understand that negative information can be, and often is, included in an article. You point to WP:NOTADVERT: I asked for the removal of content like "...which consisted of two highrise towers and until 2011 was the highest building in Russia. The complex was designed by Erick van Egeraat." and "Doronin has close ties among the art community: artists, gallerists and dealers. He has become friends with some of them. Doronin’s friends include Tony Shafrazi, a New York gallery owner and dealer, who taught him about contemporary art and the late actor and photographer Dennis Hopper." How does the removal of these details from a BLP render the article promotional?

• I asked that content/sources which focus on the companies be moved to the company articles- your assertions regarding the sources are misleading. Please take another look at the content, not just the headlines. Also, as mentioned above, much of that material is already included on the company's page, and does not need to be duplicated here. Furthermore, excessive details, whether negative, positive or neutral, should be excluded from this article as they are simply not encyclopedic.

A more recent example of such detail is your reinsertion of the Leonardo DiCaprio (external!) image. How does the mention and image of three individuals in attendance at the same event, alongside hundreds of other guests, warrant inclusion in a Wikipedia article?

With thanks CharlotteAman (talk) 13:37, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@DrDavidLivesey, @CharlotteAman: I've been setting aside time to look at sources and try to verify information, and I think the remaining sections need that kind of review. That being said, tabloids are already questionable sources for bios, and a tabloid reporter quoting an anonymous source is clearly unverifiable. Please be more careful about this. RAN1 (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

SYNTH and unreliable source

@DrDavidLivesey, can you please explain this edit? Why are you using WP:SYNTHESIS to "combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source"? Also, WP:NYPOST has also been identified as "generally unreliable for factual reporting". Why is it acceptable to cite here? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Coffeeandcrumbs

1) WP:SYNTHESIS rule does not apply here because there are two facts in different sentences: and no conclusions are drawn from them. (ie not original research) (quote from WP:SYNTHESIS "If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources.")

2) At the same time, WP:NYPost can be considered one of the sources: because ... content authored by established subject-matter experts is also acceptable... (quote from WP:GUNREL): See authors profile: https://nypost.com/author/lisa-fickenscher/

In the article itself there are references to company's sources: "An Aman spokesperson confirmed the company hired McGonigal last year..."

Moreover such a fact is not egregious: and perhaps instead of deleting it would make sense to flag for more reliable sources: Template:Better source needed. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 23:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

See notes in the edit summary. None of the content is in the sources cited. It is beyond synthesis. It is pure fabrication of a connection where none exists. Please stop reinserting material without proper sourcing, especially on a BLP. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Why did you describe None of this is in the sources when you removed the large material in this edit... although there are two issues: previously you removed the source in this edit yourself and you also ignored my answer to your own question. Can we continue the conversation here or do you continue to unreasonably delete the text? DrDavidLivesey (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I have said this already, but I will repeat it again. NYPOST is not a reliable source and cannot be used on this page or any other page that is considered a biography of a living person. That is the consensus of the community here. I removed it because it is not reliable. You are also misinterpreting WP:GUNREL. If you have any issues with what I am saying, you are welcome to bring the matter up at WP:RSN or another noticeboard to get a third opinion. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:50, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Withsome discussions here and here is an opinion that the label on NYPost: "Generally unreliable" is NOT the same as always unreliable. The very definition of WP:NYPOST states that special attention is paid to the polics section. In this case, the article about McGonigal is an exception as it does not contain any obvious false information or hoax. Aman's rep confirmed that McGonigal worked for the Aman company. In this case it is appropriate to just flag Citation needed. DrDavidLivesey (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

You're attempting to use failed arguments for carveouts that didn't gain consensus as arguments for a carveout. That doesn't make sense - David Gerard (talk) 16:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLPRS is pretty clear. This is contentious material and should only be sourced to RSes. Worse than that, it seems to be claims about a third party, not even the article subject. NYPOST was found to have a history of fabrication and is not usable for such claims. The material should not be re-added unless it's about the subject and firmly source to RSes - David Gerard (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)