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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Carson Wentz (talk | contribs) at 04:10, 6 August 2023 (→Zafar Mahmud: Overturn to NC). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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5 August 2023

Zafar Mahmud

Zafar Mahmud (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

It seems clear to me that there was no consensus to delete. CT55555(talk) 22:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn, it‘s clear that there was no consensus here whatsoever. It‘s a very odd close and hard to justify, in my opinion. Note that there is relevant discussion on the closing admin‘s talk page, here. Actualcpscm (talk) 22:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Strength of argument is more important than numbers. The closer showed their work on the talk page, and this was a well-reasoned close. I have no problem with draftifying it if someone wants to try to fix it up, though, but it should probably go through AfC, even though we're behind there. SportingFlyer T·C 22:48, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore for review, please I'd like to see the sourcing in the article at time of deletion. Jclemens (talk) 23:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto - please restore for review. In the meantime:
    • I'd like to keep the article personally although I don't think I !voted. It's just that the subject sounds interesting.
    • That said, I respect the process and I respect the closer, Spartaz. The only way I'd !vote overturn is if there were good refs added late in the process.
--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 00:50, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Recipients of the Order of the Two Niles

Category:Recipients of the Order of the Two Niles (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

I have created Recipients of Order of the Two Niles category but then discovered a variant of this category was deleted after a discussion. As I think the reasons listed in Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 20#Category:Recipients of the Order of the Two Niles are not longer valid, i.e.,

(1) WP:OCAWARD: there are several examples where this award is a defining characteristics, e.g., Ahmed Mohamed El Hassan, Akef El-Maghraby, Abdel Halim Mohamed and Mohamed Hamad Satti (to name few). There is also a huge list of people that are not Wikipedia but this award can help in make them pass the notability criteria. for example: Abdalah Grosh Sudanese Businessman. Although I have to confess that the majority of the recipients are diplomats but for example in the case of Yevgeny Prigozhin it shows Wagner involvement in Sudan, and Marta Ruedas, UN Resident and Humanitarian in Sudan, who received the award from Omer al-Bashir who was indicted by International Criminal Court for Darfur genocide. And many other examples
(2) no article exits, which I have created and appeared on the main page as part of a DYK, see Order of the Two Niles and Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/March#31 March 2023
By any means, I hope this is not taking as ignoring previous concensuses and I am happy to remove all people in the cat if a deletion verdict is reached.
@RevelationDirect, Marcocapelle, Peterkingiron, and Johnpacklambert: who participated in the previous discussion.

@Good Olfactory: the admin who closed the discussion FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think if you examples of (1) are the best ones, I'm not sure I'd agree they are defining. Our article on Ahmed Mohamed El Hassan, doesn't even mention it, Abdel Halim Mohamed does mention in our article but it is a mention which would tend not to suggest it's defining - so I checked a few references the Royal College of Physician has a fair bio which doesn't mention it, and the couple of others I picked likewise... That said I'm really not sure what you are asking DRV to do, DRV doesn't have the power to Bless the category so it can't be deleted and reasonably the best place to discuss stuff like I just mention is a further CFD if someone nominates it (I only cover that stuff because I think if it does go to CFD that's the kind of stuff which would be looked at. --81.100.164.154 (talk) 11:02, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Excerpt from Ahmed Mohamed El Hassan#Awards and honours: The Government of Sudan awarded El Hassan the Gold Medal for Research and Science in 1977, El Neelain Order (First Class) in 1979, and the Order of Merit (First Class) in 1995. El Neelain Order is another name for the award
    As I said "I have created Recipients of Order of the Two Niles category but then discovered a variant of this category was deleted" it is a DRV matter if article was deleted before. So it is at least polite to try to consult the people who deleted it as I also need to move the category to the correct/deleted name. Cheers FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:16, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well you'll excuse my confusion/ignorance on "El Neelain" since the article on the award makes no mention of that, (and doing a very simple google search just now also doesn't give an indication that they are the same thing, but it was very cursory). Your response on DRV doesn't really answer my question my point, which is "I'm really not sure what you are asking DRV to do", deletion discussion are not "never ever" results so subject to recreation if things change. I doubt anyone would question if you are acting in good faith. I also think DRV is very unlikely to overturn the original discussion etc. --81.100.164.154 (talk) 12:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (as original nominator) Thank you for the ping and for creating the DRV. When you linked to the article I was expecting to find a bare bones list but Order of the Two Niles looks great! I'm not in favor of recreating the category though. Even if I agreed the award was defining for your 3 examples (and I agree with the IP editor above), WP:OCAWARD was rewritten by consensus a few years ago so the guideline now reads "A category of award recipients should exist only if receiving the award is a #DEFINING characteristic for the large majority of its notable recipients." Going through the list of recipients it's clear that, just like most awards, this one doesn't meet that tough standard. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:02, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the original CfD and disallow recreation of the category - it still fails WP:OCAWARD. The new list is an excellent alternative. SportingFlyer T·C 22:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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