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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Drmies (talk | contribs) at 12:35, 10 August 2023 (Kalki Avatar and Muhammad: Closed as delete (XFDcloser)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. "Keep" voters do not provide a sufficient rationale, particularly when it comes to providing reliable secondary sources. Given the history of the article, SALTing seems appropriate to me. Drmies (talk) 12:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kalki Avatar and Muhammad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Repeated recreation despite many discussions closing with delete.

The subject still fails WP:NBOOK. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 02:32, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the sources? There are none. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 18:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aman.kumar.goel: I am not happy to see that you proposed for deletion without reading the article. Sources are added to the article itself. You can watch this video for Zakir Naik's topic. Although many have criticized him, but you can see this blog of Asif Mohiuddin, if you know Bengali language. ‍~ 𝕂𝕒𝕡𝕦𝕕𝕒𝕟 ℙ𝕒ş𝕒 (inbox - contribs) 05:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously the subject fails WP:GNG because it is lacking significant coverage in reliable sources. There are a number of subjects (such as YouTube channels) that have gained popularity in local spheres but they haven't recieved significant coverage from reliable sources that are independent of the subject. CharlesWain (talk) 08:36, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CharlesWain I don't understand which GNG you read. If a book creates a new argument that is fundamentally used in a religious debate on that topic for the next 50+ years; How is that book not notable?
And the references here include Milli Gadget articles, books by Ziaur Rahman Azmi, Afrasiab Mehdi Hashmi and two other professors. I don't understand, are you considering these as YouTube channels or have you not seen the references at all? ‍~ 𝕂𝕒𝕡𝕦𝕕𝕒𝕟 ℙ𝕒ş𝕒 (inbox - contribs) 15:50, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your sources are only making a passing mention or they are discussing a broader subject. Read WP:GNG properly. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 02:05, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Aman.kumar.goel Ziaur Rahman Azmi wrote the book about the similarities and differences between the religions of India (Hind). There he criticized the book for 5 pages. is this just a passing mantion? Another thing I found about this book today is that, this book was translated in bengali by the former Paschimbanga Bangla Akademi president Asitkumar Bandyopadhyay.[4]
Another complementary point to the book's notabilty is its misinterpreted (alleged by many Hindu pandit and I read a book by ISKCON Bangladesh about this) in Hindu scriptures. Doesn't that prove the notability? (Off topic: Dada, please mention me while answering. I'm actually not very active on English Wikipedia.) ‍~ 𝕂𝕒𝕡𝕦𝕕𝕒𝕟 ℙ𝕒ş𝕒 (inbox - contribs) 17:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Muhammad in Hindu scriptures". Milli Gazette. Archived from the original on 2019-01-07. Retrieved 2014-11-06.
  2. ^ الرحمن, أعظمى، محمد ضياء (2008). دراسات في اليهودية والمسيحية وأديان الهند والبشارات في كتب الهندوس (in Arabic). مكتبة الرشد،. pp. 703–708.
  3. ^ Malik, Dr Ahmad; Mehdi Hashmi Qureshi, Afrasiab (1 January 2022). END TIMES (What could happen in the world tomorrow). (Center for Global and Strategic Studies, Islamabad). pp. 13, 274, 275. ISBN 9789699837142. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
  4. ^ Basu, Anjali (Jan 2019). Samsad Bangali Charitabidhan (in Bengali) (Second ed.). Kolkata: Sahitya Samsad. pp. 48–50. ISBN 978-81-7955-292-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: year (link)
Still fails WP:SIGCOV. Dympies (talk) 14:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: A source analysis table would be very helpful at this point in the discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:55, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question - I would like to ask a question out of respect for those who are asking for deletion: When a book appears as the main subject of two notable religious debates, notable religious figures review and criticize or in some cases praise the book in their respective books or in the media; So why is the book not notable? Because the reviewer's book is in Arabic, Sanskrit or some such language? or anything else? Although I don't normally participate in AFD. But a few days ago, besides participating in the AFD of Ulipur.com, I also participated in this AFD. So maybe, I'm not understanding the point correctly. ‍~ 𝕂𝕒𝕡𝕦𝕕𝕒𝕟 ℙ𝕒ş𝕒 (inbox - contribs) 06:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aman.kumar.goel, please don't forget the steps listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors. Thanks,

--A. B. (talkcontribsglobal count) 03:42, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@A. B.: There is no such requirement. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 00:37, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're right -- it is not technically a requirement but it is recommended and requested by the AfD procedure. It's unusual that a nominator doesn't do this. It's highly unusual when they refuse to do it. This leaves others wondering what's up with the nominator.
--A. B. (talkcontribsglobal count) 00:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then it is your own issue that you are not assuming good faith. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 02:02, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, there is a lot of established reliable source here including Afrasiab Mehdi Hashmi, former Pakistani High comissioner, Zakir Naik, Ali Gomaa, Ali Unal, Ziaur Rahman Azmi, Asitkumar Bandhopaddhay Abubakar Muhammad Zakaria etc. and most of the sources discuss the matter in detail, including the published journal articles given in the article from Middle East, Pakistan, Iran and Indonesia from their renowned national leading universities, also there are references from lots of established news articles and international books, so it clearly passes WP:RS, WP:NB and GNG. But in all the article, there should be also added hindu point of views more to make the article more balanced, because the book and the topic is also very familiar in Hindu communities when it comes to the hindu muslim dialogue, and most of the Hindus gives different explanations of these discussions, their referencial point of views should be also added.  Masum Ibn Musa  Conversation 10:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:SPAM, blatantly promotional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UrielAcosta (talkcontribs)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Still hoping for a source analysis.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz: Sources were already analyzed. None of them fulfills the requirement of WP:GNG. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 05:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
where have you given or discussed the detailed analysis of the sources pointing them specifically? Show. The article meets WP:SIGCOV of WP:GNG, and besides when SNG is met, GNG is not needed, and according to WP:SNG of WP:NB, and to the first 66 of the given 67 sources in reference, the article meets the criteria 1, as this book "has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book.", criteria 3, as this book "has been considered by reliable sources to have made a significant contribution to a notable or significant motion picture, or other art form, or event or political or religious movement.", criteria 4, as the book "is, or has been, the subject of instruction at two or more schools, colleges, universities or post-graduate programs in any particular country.". 43.245.120.228 (talk) 10:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • But @Liz there are 68 citations / footnotes for this article! Please don't ask for a source analysis again.
I'm here grudgingly because this article is listed in Category:AfD debates relisted 3 or more times
I machine translated and analyzed a few of the refs and did some searches of my own. In the interest of not making others eyes bleed with a wall of text, I will not post them here. See Wikipedia Talk:Articles for deletion/Kalki Avatar and Muhammad.
Assessment: this book is notable but it's been superseded by a later book Ved Prakash Upadhyay wrote. Upadhyay's books, as I understand them, attempt to find some common theological overlap between Hinduism and Islam. This work is polarizing partly because adherents of both faiths seem to see this as a long stretch. It's also polarizing because South Asia is violently polarized anyway; Upadhyay wants to calm this. Someone in a previous AfD called these views "fringe" and I can see why; I'm not saying they are but I can see how most South Asians might see them this way. That doesn't mean they're wrong; it's a matter of faith. Nevertheless, I think they are notable if you sift through enough stuff; see the talk page.
Merge with Ved Prakash Upadhyay. Notwithstanding the technical notability of this book, I recommend merging its article to the author's article. This is because the refs I read tended to lump this in with the later book and Upadhyay in general. Do we want an article on this book and the later book and the author repeating the same arguments? It just seems to make the most sense to put all this together in one good, comprehensive article. It's less susceptible to POV forking, too.
That's 2 hours Wikipedia owes me.
--A. B. (talkcontribsglobal count) 03:03, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ved Prakash Upadhyay. The same citations here apply there also. Upadhyay's article has more refs and honors cited than this book.
--A. B. (talkcontribsglobal count) 03:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a single source satisfies WP:GNG. You believe this self-published source (as stated by the website itself) "counts towards notability". In any case, your own poor analysis fail to suggest any notability. Editorkamran (talk) 06:15, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Editorkamran You answared about only a single source. What about Ziaur Rahman Azmi's book? why is this not notable? And what about the work of Asitkumar Bandyopadhyay, Is his work was not notable? He was the president of Paschimbanga Bangla Akademi, who translated it and added an appendix chapter. ‍~ 𝕂𝕒𝕡𝕦𝕕𝕒𝕟 ℙ𝕒ş𝕒 (inbox - contribs) 06:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fails GNG. I will make this easy — those who wish to keep this article, please provide the best seven(Ceiling[68/10])sources and I will offer an explanation about why they don't contribute to GNG. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

:*ref no 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 28, 30, 32, 42, 44, 45, 48, (mostly 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, 14) use Google Translate and Google Lens. I am not having time otherwise i have the ability to show the notibility.202.134.10.138 (talk) 16:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I asked for seven; so, my analysis will be restricted to Sources 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, 14 as present this version which stood at the time of your comment:
    Source 1: "Human Resource Management Academic Research Society" is a journal that is not indexed in any bibliogaphic database of repute (Scopus/WoS/..) and more importantly, was in Beall's list before it was shut down. When anybody tries to cite the journal, we issue an alert about the poor quality of the source but that has not discouraged you or whoever added it.
    Source 2: A publication by Center for Global and Strategic Studies, Islamabad. There is not the slightest of indication that this is a think-tank of any repute.
    Source 3: The Jordanian Journal of Islamic Studies is a journal that is not indexed in any bibliogaphic database of repute (Scopus/WoS/..) and is published by a fringe Islamic universty.
    Source 4: PalArch's Journal of Archaeology of Egypt / Egyptology was hijacked. C. 2018, it was transferred to Open Access Text Ltd., a known predatory publisher — again on Beall's list and our black-list — and subsequently removed from Scopus at the end of 2019. Need I say more?
    Source 12: You claim that undergraduate theses are reliable? Or do you think that I am stupid enough to be misled because I cannot read Indonesian?
    Source 13: Why would Al-Idrak, published by an eponymous research center in lahore, be considered as a rleiable source? This is not indexed in any bibliogaphic database of repute (Scopus/WoS/..) and has never been cited by any scholar in the Academe.
    Source 14: Why would انتظار موعود be a RS? This is not indexed in any bibliogaphic database of repute (Scopus/WoS/..), etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Aman.kumar.goel, please do not strike comments from editors you disagree on the basis of your own unproven "sock" allegation. Get a checker confirmation first.
This AfD is getting out of hand on both sides of the issue. @Liz
--A. B. (talkcontribsglobal count) 11:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@A. B.: The IP who is obsessionally badgering here is evading his block on this proxy IP. Stop assuming bad faith. You have been already warned by me right above on 02:02, 5 August 2023. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 12:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This IP is now blocked again. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 12:29, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ IJ-ARBASS 2017, Vol. 7, Special Issue – Islam and Contemporary Issues) ISSN 2222-6990