Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ludwig Ross/archive1

Ludwig Ross

Ludwig Ross (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Ludwig Ross/archive1

Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the first (real) head of the Greek Archaeological Service, the meticulous, scholarly and complex Ludwig Ross. One of the many Germans to make the journey to Greece in the early years of independence, Ross played a major role in the establishment of the practice of archaeology in Greece and the early restorations on the Acropolis of Athens. He is also something of a tragic figure: he considered himself a foreigner in his native Denmark, was eventually rejected and effectively exiled by his adoptive Greek homeland, and died in misery having never really managed to integrate into German academia during the final phase of his career. I've reviewed the article recently but wrote it a little while ago; it underwent a thorough and thoughtful GA nomination conducted by User:Mike Christie. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • Got them all now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest adding alt text
  • Again, think I've got them all now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Ludwig_Ross_-_Imagines_philologorum.jpg is tagged as lacking author information
  • Is that a problem, given that we've got publisher information (Alfred Gudeman, 1911) which puts it into the public domain regardless of who the author is? If it's from Imagines Philologorum, it will be a portrait by someone else that Gudeman collected. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • The image currently has a tag of author life+70; unless this was a work for hire I don't think publisher can substitute. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

      OK, but we can replace that tag with {{PD-US-expired}}, surely? As it's a photograph, it's got to be at least 170 years old (the subject died in 1853), which I think covers us for life+70. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• File:AcropolisatathensSitePlanPeripatos.svg is missing a data source
  • Yes, it is... which is a problem given that it's a source for quite a lot of other valuable images. Swapped for [:File:Plan Acropolis of Athens.svg], which has good sources. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Hansen_Athena_Nike_1836.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Ludwig_Ross_by_Georgios_Varouchas_1870.jpg
  • On the Hansen painting: Hansen donated his work to the library of the Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen after his death in 1883. Haugsted says he exhibited much of his work from Greece in 1857, but doesn't explicitly say which paintings this includes. Equally, I can't find any evidence that it was published until its current web iteration (it might be in Haugsted?), so might we have a case for PD-unpublished? UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • When does the web iteration date to? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

      2010. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  • Varouchas: I don't have my physical copy of Haugsted for the next couple of weeks; that might have some information on the portrait, though I suspect we'll find that we can only show that it's been exhibited within the university, which probably isn't enough to count as publication? I'm fairly sure that one has been in print (I'm almost certain it's in Haugsted). UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Let's hold off on answering this until you have Haugsted and can see what it says. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Athens_University_Museum.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • Now has one. I forgot that Greece doesn't have FoP. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Bibliothek_des_Deutschen_Archäologischen_Instituts_Athen_14_(cropped_2).JPG: what is the artist's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I have no idea; I can't find any information about the artist at all. There's an old photograph here, but in the absence of a definite date I don't think we're likely to get far here. Removed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I thought I'd done rather better than that; thanks for picking all these up, Nikki. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Bneu2013

• What exactly does "reconstruction" of the Indo-European language family refer to? Does this mean reviving an obsolete language?
  • Yup: or at least, working out what the extinct language was like. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Article says his publications were used by contemporary scholars. Are they still used?
  • They've generally been superseded by more complete corpora, though people still cite them in the interest of showing their scholarly workings. You wouldn't generally reach for one of his books when starting a course of Greek epigraphy, though. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Last lead sentence is borderline run-on; I suggest splitting.
  • Split; still not sure it's great. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • It's good. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Fourth sentence in the second paragraph of "Early life" is a run-on.
  • Split.

UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• • • Second split sentence is kind of long, but reads better. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Inconsistent use of single/double quote marks around "Fund for the Public Benefit"; double seems right.
  • Agreed; done. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Should ref 14 be moved to after "1830;"?
  • I don't think Minner included the date: from memory, the key thing there was Nitzch. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I haven't checked, but I'm guessing ref 1 covers the date.
• Will Template:Inflation work with the monetary figure. Also, it looks like the 2023 value is not cited.
  • I'm not sure how to get it to work properly with currencies that no longer exist, but I'll gladly take a steer here. I can't actually remember where I got that from; it might well be Haugsted, in which case the year should be 1996 (I might then have inflated it manually). I don't have my hands on Haugsted at the moment, but will check when I do. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Ok. You might want to ask someone who understands this template better than I do. I've only ever used it with existing currencies.
      • When I get hold of Haugsted, I'll see if there's a good way to resolve this. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Citation error in the last sentence of the last paragraph of "Early life".
  • That was ugly. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Archaeological career in Greece

• (edit conflict) - "He was made deputy curator of antiquities at the Archaeological Museum of Napoleon, then capital of Greece..." - this reads like the museum was the capital.
  • Not sure about that one (compare: "King Charles lives in Buckingham Palace, a huge, gilded waste of money with fourteen bathrooms"). Can't see an obvious rephrase that doesn't make a mess, but happy to take a suggestion. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I see what you mean. Considering that this wasn't a place (or city) that I was familiar with, as opposed to Buckingham Palace for example, I was initially confused. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
      • A capital is, by definition, a city (or at least a settlement), so I'm not sure there's a real ambiguity here; I'd quite like to keep the museum's proper name rather than something like "the archaeological museum in Nafplion". UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• First sentence of second paragraph is a run-on.
  • Do you mean Tension existed between the Greek state's aim of conserving Athens's ancient monuments, the Acropolis's role as a military fortification, and the needs of the expanding city.? I'm not seeing that if so. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • No, I was referring to Ross travelled to the Mycenaean site of Tiryns.... Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
      • Ah yes: split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Work on the Acropolis of Athens

• Space after ref 34.
  • Gone. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Is the colon after "archaeological park" supposed to be a semicolon? Same as in next sentences.
  • No; the colon helps to reinforce that there's a strong relationship between the two clauses (in the first case, that the second is the opposite of what might have been expected). Second one is now a full stop. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Should "palm-tree" be hyphenated?
  • It's a bit old-fashioned, perhaps, but intentional and fits common usage. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest changing the colon after "August" to a period.
  • Done UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Stray period after "Megali Panagia; looks like it's supposed to be a comma.
  • Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Second sentence of final paragraph is a run-on.
  • Split and slightly rearranged. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Sentence that begins with "At a time when relatively few Greek..." is a run-on.
  • Split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

"Naval Records Affair" and resignation as Ephor General

• First sentence is borderline run-on. Suggest splitting.
  • Split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Link "Athenian navy" to "Athenian military".
  • I've linked it to the redirect which goes there, in case someone comes along and makes that page. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Professorship at Athens

• Should we include an inflation adjustment for Ross's salary?
  • Better to contextualise; I think: simply putting it into Euros is often unhelpful, as it doesn't account for spending power. I've contextualised with an EFN which seems to fit the general scholarly sense that this was reasonable but not lavish. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Makes sense. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Citation error in first sentence of fourth paragraph.
  • Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• "sufficiently fluently" doesn't sound grammatical; suggest rewording to something like "in which he was sufficiently fluent"
  • I'm not sure; it's equivalent to sufficiently well (adverb modifying adverb), and often used in HQRS. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • As an American, I don't recall hearing people use two consecutive -ly adverbs, but maybe this is common in other parts of the English speaking world. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Link "Asia Minor" to "Anatolia". I would also split this sentence.
  • Done on both counts. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Swap "who opposed the presence of foreigners in Greek public life" and "as Prime Minister in 1841".
  • That reads slightly wrong, given that who really wants to stand as close as possible to its antecedent, but I'll have a think about how to rephrase the whole thing. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Ok, I see now. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• In first sentence of final paragraph, I would change second 1843 to "of that year" or something appropriate.
  • Done.

Professorship at Halle

• Who/what is Humboldt in the first sentence? Is it the person mentioned later in the paragraph?
  • Yup: reordered.
• Link to Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia.
  • Frederick William IV of Prussia is linked in the preceding sentence. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • ...but therefore shouldn't be given two names in two sentences. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
      • Typo in the link. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Second sentence of third-to-last paragraph is a long run-on. I see this being split possibly into three sentences.
  • Split in two; I think it's better now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Personal life, death and legacy

• Per MOS:SEASON, replace "spring of 1847" with something else appropriate, like "early 1847 or the month this occurred (I know this is sometimes complicated by what the source says).
  • I'm actually not sure it is the Spring; the source says Frühjahr, which I suspect is more like "early in the year" than "Spring" (Frühlingzeit). Changed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Was Ross's illness a reason for his suicide?
  • This is one I'm not happy touching too much; the source to which this bit traces back goes into quite considerable detail about Ross's methods and alleged motives, but not from, as far as I can tell, any position of knowledge. They attribute it to generalised misery and Weltschmertz, but I strongly suspect that mostly comes from a desire to romanticise Ross as a tortured genius and to give him some grandeur in death. One might sensibly infer that his increasing pain was a contributing factor, but I don't think we can ever know - he never explained himself - and frankly I think it's a bit irresponsible to be too speculative about "justifying" suicide. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • That's fair. If the reason were known, I would say include it, but if not, I say leave it as-is. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• • Good eye and good points throughout: thank you for these and for taking the time to review. I think I've replied to all of them: mostly straightforwardly done. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • You're welcome. I just need to review the sources, and then I should be able to support. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)