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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Primefac (talk | contribs) at 06:13, 20 August 2023 (Reverted edit by GavinNoosom (talk) to last version by Dreamy Jazz). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Main case page (Talk) — Preliminary statements (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

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This case is currently open, so no changes may be made to this page, and unauthorised edits may be reverted.
If you wish to submit evidence in this case, go to the evidence page. Proposals for the final decision may be made at the workshop.

Case opened on 12:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


Watchlist all case (and talk) pages: Front, Ev., Wshp., PD.

Do not edit this page unless you are an arbitrator or clerk. Statements on this page are copies of the statements submitted in the original request to arbitrate this dispute, and serve as verbatim copies; therefore, they may not be edited or removed, however lengthy statements may be truncated – in which case the full statement will be copied to the talk page. Evidence which you wish to submit to the committee should be given at the /Evidence subpage, although permission must be sought by e-mail before you submit private, confidential, or sensitive evidence.

Arbitrators, the parties, and other editors may suggest proposed principles, findings, and remedies at /Workshop. The Workshop may also be used for you to submit general comments on the evidence, and for arbitrators to pose questions to the parties. Eventually, arbitrators will vote on a final decision in the case at /Proposed decision; only arbitrators may offer proposals as the Proposed Decision.


Case information

Involved parties

Prior dispute resolution

Preliminary statements

Preliminary statements given in the case request stage may be found at /Preliminary statements.

Preliminary decision

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrators' opinions on hearing this matter (7/0/2)

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

  • Will be awaiting more community feedback but it had seemed from my reading of the ANI thread that this was headed towards a community resolution with Floquenbeam's proposed close having no real opposition to implementation and so it was just a matter of that actually happening. Is this incorrect in some way? Barkeep49 (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Floq: from my POV, the community taking incremental action to keep something at a simmer rather than letting it boil doesn't strike me as a choice that would require ArbCom to step in necessarily. I'm really not opposed to opening a case with these plays in principle. But if the community can handle it - and by my read your close has support for implementation - I think the community should be the one to handle it. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @QEDK: your opinion as (I believe) an uninvolved administrator is that a case is a better outcome than Floq's proposed close which you've also supported? If that is corrrect can you tell me why, as I believe Floq's close offers remedies to the issues you've identified, if not offering judgement about who is actually right and I'm not sure that's enough of a reason to justify a full case. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is some opinion among those supporting Floq's close (including in my read from Floq himself) that the close is insufficient compared to a regular case. I am taking this feedback seriously and am now leaning towards an accept. Here's where I'm stuck. In a scenario where we have Veteran Editors A, B, C as the core parties to a case request about a somewhat sprawling and nasty at times CfD dispute, it's certainly conceivable we would accept the case. It's inconceivable, in my mind, that we would accept the case in light of a reasonable community solution with unanimous community support on how to move things forward. We would say "try the community solution and if that doesn't work come back to us". Instead the reason I think we're not just doing that is the BHG of it all and that when we last had a case request in 2021 we said "Try the community solution and if it doesn't work come back to us". But having a case just about BHG would be patently unfair to her and would not address the larger issues at play here, including potential misconduct by the other core parties. Not to mention the "come back and see us" was 2 years ago so it's not clear to me that the community solution hasn't been working. So exactly what case I would be voting to accept is unclear to me and since that's the case I'm not yet ready to do it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:31, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is there an RfC question that could clarify community consensus about SMALLCAT that is reasonably ready to go? Would appreciate input on this from anyone but will ping the 3 I see as the core parties to this case request, @RevelationDirect, BrownHairedGirl, and Laurel Lodged:. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:05, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • This might belong better at the Workshop, but I am puzzled by the editors suggesting we assume the community's restriction against BHG as I'm not sure what that addresses and part of the reason I think the community has a good track record of resolving disputes is that ArbCom leaves it alone to do so. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just noting that instructions for opening the case were sent to clerks earlier today so (hopefully) this case will be opened soonish pending availability from that team. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Recuse. GeneralNotability (talk) 21:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Floquenbeam, it is a community restriction. Izno (talk) 21:52, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    What attempts have been made to resolve the conduct of the participants, ignoring the ANI discussion prior this case request? I am less inclined to a broad examination if there are no other attempts besides the recent one. Izno (talk) 18:58, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline I am struggling to see how this isn't an extended exercise in asking the other parent to win a dispute. The request is almost a carbon copy of the opening post of the ANI thread. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 22:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • We could/should probably so two cases here (as we did with American politics 2 and Collect et al. in 2015). Case 1 to examine BrownHairedGirl's conduct since Portals. I am an accept on this case due to Vermont's evidence that behavioral problems seem to follow BHG from topic area to topic area. Further, neither the community sanction nor ANI seem to be able to solve this ongoing issue. I was overly hopeful a few days ago that with Floq's almost close we could avoid a case. But here we are. We could also have a second case to examine the SmallCat issue. I am not sure that it is fully ripe for arbitration right now. There seems to have been little to no prior efforts to resolve the conflict outside of the mega ANI thread. The committee could consolidate these two issues into a single case, but that seems needlessly chaotic for the drafters. I am a firm no on the motion below. The RfC and the question on SmallCat should come from the community, not arbcom. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 11:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @RevelationDirect, BrownHairedGirl, and Laurel Lodged: I would appreciate hearing your input as to whether Floquenbeam's proposal sounds like a reasonable way to proceed. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:39, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find Floquenbeam's proposal appealing for various reasons, and if we do have a vote on that I would be very inclined to support it. However, as Floq says above, this would not be truly dealing with the underlying reasons of the dispute. Most of our guidelines are imperfect, and there's no saying that after a RfC that a revised SmallCat will become perfect, or that the behaviour of the parties involved will change. When folks are in disagreement about interpretation of a guideline, there are better ways of sorting it out than engaging in long term disputes resulting in ANI reports and/or ArbCom case requests. I'm not seeing the issue here as being SmallCat itself, but in how folks have handled the natural disagreements as to interpretation of SmallCat. Changing SmallCat doesn't necessarily change the mindset or behaviour of the folks involved in the dispute - it may simply move the dispute to a new location somewhere down the road. When there are personal disputes between people such that the people themselves cannot or will not sort out themselves, and when the matter has been referred to ANI and the folks and admins there have spent a week and 35,000 words trying and failing to reach a solution and so have turned to ArbCom, I do think that ArbCom needs to take the case just to check if the issue is just an inability to behave appropriate in this dispute, and not that some of the individuals involved may have a mindset that generates a dispute out of minor disagreements. At heart here we have claims that BHG is incivil and involved in persecutory delusion, against BHG's own claims of vindictive, disruptive bad-faith tag-teaming. I think these claims do need looking into rather than brushing aside in an attempt to find a quick solution. Accept. SilkTork (talk) 08:30, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User:Paul August, would you please unblock BHG in order to allow them to continue to take part in this discussion. You may impose a restriction on BHG to forbid them from editing elsewhere, but they need to be allowed to take part in a discussion about them. SilkTork (talk) 13:57, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given that it's a 48 hour block I have no problem with copying replies from her user talk to here. I also admit that Paul's idea that he can't change his own block to be incongruent with the community's restriction. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:04, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Paul August: I could wikilawyer why I think you could have undone your own block, but unlike a community ban or some other community sanction, which an individual, even the one implementing, can't undo without consensus, this was still a grant to individual admin and I don't think the community had any desire to impose a kafkaesque one way imposition on that grant to individual admins. This is based, in no small part, on my re-read of the discussion about sanctions that led to this editing restriction a few days ago. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:11, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with including User:Paul August and User:Courcelles as parties as I don't see the clear consensus for either the block or the unblock. I'm seeing the case as behaviour and conduct around disagreement over interpreting the SmallCat guideline; as such, if the case is accepted, it would be appropriate to name it after the guideline rather than any one person. If there is a case, do we need to include everyone listed as parties in this request? MJL, for example, doesn't appear to have been involved in the categories dispute. SilkTork (talk) 16:14, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User:Paul August and User:Courcelles. My agreement with accepting you both as parties in the case is based on the notion that there is more to the blocking and unblocking than a simple trout-worthy error, that either or both of you are involved in either the SmallCat dispute or some prior relationship with one or more of the main parties. It is not uncommon for grievances to emerge during an ArbCom request, but when those grievances turn into actions utilising admin tools then there will be some concerns of involvement. I'm not seeing any involvement, and if no one provides any evidence of involvement then I won't be supporting you be named as parties. SilkTork (talk) 10:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just noting I've seen this; I'm inclined to accept, but I'll wait for further developments before doing so. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 21:50, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Accept Per Barkeep49. I don't think two cases are needed here. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 20:25, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept I agree with SilkTork's analysis of the situation. Most editors manage to routinely disagree about guideline interpretations without needing ANI, let alone ArbCom, intervention. The problem here isn't the wording of SMALLCAT, and the idea of running an RfC is just a distraction from the underlying issues which will crop up at some other guideline dispute in the future. — Wug·a·po·des 22:22, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Recuse WormTT(talk) 13:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept. It's clear I misread the clear consensus in favor of implementing the "drive-by" close of the ANI thread. While that close was all about creating conditions for an RfC, the support for it seems to have really been more a case of "the conduct present in this ANI thread needs something, ANI isn't going to be able to do it, this drive by close is something, so support". Such a situation clearly means we've reached the "serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve" stage of things. I am of mixed feelings about Guillero's suggestion of 2 cases. My concern is that I think it puts BHG in a spot where the broader context of the most recent dispute (e.g. any potential baiting of her) is out of scope or otherwise given less weight. The benefit is that I think it becomes a bit easier to then include Paul August and Courcelles as parties in the BHG side of things because if the outcome of that case were anything except an arbcom ban of BHG having clarity about how BHG's existing restriction should be handled feels like a necessity. In either scenario I feel that the conduct of RevelationDirect and Laurel Lodged also needs examining. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:11, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Courcelles analysis of his actions and those of Paul August (see also my user talk for more from PA) feels correct. It suggests to me that including them if we decide to keep it to a single case (my current preference) would be unnecessary and perhaps even a mistake. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not quite ready to vote yet, but leaning towards accepting, providing that the case we take makes sense. We can interpret existing policy, but it is not our job, as a committee, to lead the way on policy changes. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Accept I am also unsure exactly where this case will lead us, but it seems there is a real problem here that needs to be adressed, and that the community has been unable to do so. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:11, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept. I am not sure what will be done, but something needs to be changed in this editing dynamic; BHG's enthusiasm for whatever project she sets her mind to is commendable, but does tend to go over the top rather often. Civility issues cannot happen in a vacuum of course, so I am not opposed to looking into the activities of the other editors as well. Primefac (talk) 08:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: Open and suspend

Motion clearly misses the mark

A case entitled Categories for Discussion will be opened and immeadiately suspended. While the case is suspended, the drafting arbitrator(s) will attempt to facilitate a RfC to address the outstanding guideline question(s). During the suspension, the drafting arbitrator(s) may take appropriate action(s) to facilitate finding consensus, including but not limited to imposing:

  • word and/or diff limits on all participants and/or parties,
  • bans on participating in the RfC on editors who have disrupted the consensus process, and
  • sectioned commenting rules.

While the case is suspended, named parties to the case may not:

  1. Question the motive of other editors;
  2. Attempt to bait other editors, especially named parties, into violating any guideline or policy; or
  3. Nominate any category for discussion related to WP:SMALLCAT, or any other scope decided by a consensus of the drafting arbitrator(s).

In addition to the facilitation authority granted above to the drafting arbitrators, any uninvolved administrator (including non-recused arbitrators) may enforce behavioral expectations on named parties with escalating blocks beginning at 48 hours. Appeals from any blocks levied under this paragraph may be directed only to the Arbitration Committee. The Arbitration Committee may in its discretion modify any such block, including by extending it.

The drafting arbitrator(s) may add or remove named parties to the case, in accordance with normal arbitraton procedures.

The case may be unsuspended at any time by consensus of the drafting arbitrator(s) or by a majority vote of the Arbitraton Committee, either on its own motion or following a request at WP:ARCA. Following closure of the RfC, the Arbitraton Committee will decide by majority vote whether to close the case, unsuspend the case, or take other action as it deems appropriate.

Arbitration Discussion
  • In my opinion we have two (overlapping) case requests here. A case request based on a dispute at CFD regarding SMALLCAT and a case request based on allegations of chronic incivility by BHG. I don't think either of these requests on its own has risen to the level of Arbitration Committee intervention, but I think the combination of them does because the complexity of them is beyond what the community can reasonably handle. So this motion (with some copyedits by L235) is my attempt to resolve one of them, the SMALLCAT one. As has been noted by several editors and arbs (including me), the so-called "driveby close" has community consensus. However, there was seemingly no admin willing to implement it and even if there was there was no method to launching the RfC which is at the core of that solution. I am proposing Arb moderation, rather than appointing a facilitator, because I think that provides the cleanest path towards deciding the RfC process isn't working and we need to go the case route first (rather than trying to resolve the dispute and then see if a case is still needed). I am guessing there might need to be further substantive refinements before we're ready to vote and I'm not sure this committee will want to take on such an active moderation role even once we reach the voting phase. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue I see being brought to ArbCom is one of civility and conduct, and that's the case I am supporting opening. The SmallCat guideline is not within ArbCom's remit, and ArbCom recommending, advising or overseeing a RfC have historically not been successful. If there are folks who are interested in working on the SmallCat guideline (which User:Jc37 has been working on recently, and has split out into a stand alone guideline: Wikipedia:Overcategorization/Small with no potential for growth) they can do that without some authority looking over their shoulder. I'm not seeing the guideline itself as being the issue (and a glance at the guideline history and talkpage doesn't show any disruption), so I'd not support ArbCom inserting themselves into what is essentially a non-problematic area. What ArbCom should concentrate on is looking into behaviours which prevent everyday community activity happening as it should (which includes resolving disagreements over how a guideline is interpreted). If there is a dispute between editors which they themselves nor the community can resolve then we should look into the individuals involved in the dispute, not what they are disputing over. SilkTork (talk) 16:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Temporary injunction (none)

Final decision (none yet)

All tallies are based the votes at /Proposed decision, where comments and discussion from the voting phase is also available.

Principles

Findings of fact

Remedies

All remedies that refer to a period of time (for example, a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months) are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Enforcement

Enforcement of restrictions

0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.

In accordance with the procedure for the standard enforcement provision adopted 3 May 2014, this provision did not require a vote.

Appeals and modifications

0) Appeals and modifications

This procedure applies to appeals related to, and modifications of, actions taken by administrators to enforce the Committee's remedies. It does not apply to appeals related to the remedies directly enacted by the Committee.

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

  1. ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
  2. request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
  3. submit a request for amendment at "ARCA". If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-en@wikimedia.org).
Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

  1. the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
  2. prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

  1. For a request to succeed, either
(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or
(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA
is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.
  2. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
  3. These provisions apply only to contentious topics placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorised by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
  4. All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.
In accordance with the procedure for the standard appeals and modifications provision adopted 3 May 2014, this provision did not require a vote.

Enforcement log

Any block, restriction, ban, or sanction performed under the authorisation of a remedy for this case must be logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log, not here.

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