Talk:Chinaman

Article created

This article was created by splitting off content from Chinaman, and expanding upon it using sources already provided. As this is a controversial topic, please provide references when adding new content. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since when was Chinaman considered slang? Some may consider it offensive or even archaic, but I don't think it's ever been considered slang. ElderStatesman 16:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What should it be named in the parenthesis of the article name to differentiate it then? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How's Chinaman (ethnonym) which is the most accurate description? It's definitely not slang, especially given its use in official and newspapering contexts. Chinaman (person) might also work and be more along wiki naming guidelines.Skookum1 20:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you recall there was an uproar in the political world when someone used the word "niggardly". Lots of people took offense. It's a fact that they found it offensive. It's also a fact that they found it offensive because they thought "niggardly" meant "niggerly". Similarly that's why this article is important. Some people should be aware that the term can be considered offensive, while others should be aware of the origins of the term and why it might not be considered offensive.

I'll work with you to create an article that makes sense, but I'm not going to waste my time in an Internet pissing match if you want to use this page to push your personal POV. I don't want a revert war and I'm referring specifically to the fact that you eliminated rather than editted my attempts to improve your article.

As above, I agree that it is a fact that many people think "Chinaman" is offensive. On the other hand, whether you like it or not a lot of people think Chinaman is not only inoffensive, the idea of changing the term Chinaman is offensive. I can spend a lot of time documenting this fact, but then you might be confused and think I'm trying to convince you that "Chinaman" isn't offensive and therefore reject any evidence which I produce.

So, you should understand I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If you find Chinaman offensive, so be it. I can't tell you how to feel. But it's a waste of time if you're going to try to tell me or others how to feel as well.

BTW, I personally think the "-man" suffix is complimentary. As I said in the article, this is a suffix which is reserved for ethnics near the nexus point of the English language ... and the Chinese. On the other hand, I don't doubt that you and others might be offended by the term. But that's all the more reason why I think this article is important. Perhaps, we can work together to shed light on this tiny controversy. If you want a revert war, have fun and then go work on the "niggardly" article. ElderStatesman 20:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The -man suffix is a standard Anglo-Saxon/Germanic, as in "alderman" and "yeoman" or any of the Germanic-language derivations (in most of them -man is neutral in gender, or inclusive of all genders). One of the stock denunciations of Chinaman (ref. UseNet groups, repeatedly) is that the formation China+man is allegedly inherently derisive vs Frenchman and Englishman, because that formation should theoretically (allegedly) be "Chinese-man"...but it's fairly easy to see the pidgin alteration of that from "Chinee-man" via shortening of the vowel to "China-man", if pidgin is the origin of the term; its origins are very vague, though, as to whether it was of Chinese creation or, as is also possible, from maritime/sailor English.Skookum1 21:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of non-offensive use

I found some last night and will post them here later, with cites, as examples of ways in which the word was used without being deliberately derisive, even though latter-day readers may sniff their noses at such usages; at the very worst they're ignorant, not malignant. Whatever; if there's a better place for such examples than here, let me know (WikiSource maybe?), but the format I'm thinking is to provide the <ref></ref> element on the page, including the (short) quotation in each case; or the quotation could be here? Seems like it's better to have it within the references....wish I hadn't taken certain history books back to the library (avoiding overdue fines) but I could always get them out again, and have others here anyway.....here's the first example:

"The famous gold rush of 1875 to 85 when the Chinamen took out millions out of the bed of the Cayoosh showed no impresion on the records of St. Mary's. The Indians and the Europeans are mingled with the life of the church during the entire period of 75 years, but the yellow man was not a Christian, not a mixer, not a spender. He took the gold from the placer claims, but he left none of it behind. Nor did he seem to come in contact with any part of the history of the church. His success, however, encouraged the development of the district, and prospectors fled to the hills to find wher the gold in Cayoosh came from" - Extracts from St. Mary's Parish Register, undated pamphlet , edited and compiled by Margaret Lally "Ma" Murray, Bridge River-Lillooet Publishing, Lillooet BC., quote in Short Portage to Lillooet, Irene Edwards, self-publ. 1976, pp. 195-196.

Now, you'd think that was a negative account, especially with the equally-casual use of "yellow man", but in those days both terms were still used very casually and without malicious/condemnatory intent; Murray was herself extremely pro-Chinese and held them in high regard (and not just because many were advertising customers in her paper), although she did have a never-extinguished hostility towards the Japanese - because of what she had seen them to do the Chinese during the bombing of Shanghai (see her article). Anyway, there are other usages of "Chinaman" in Edwards' book which I'll dig out; this one I remarked on as the first that jumped out at me since the article split, and it's a good example of "casual" use despite the "critical" context; Murray in other passages extols the Chinese for their hard work, thrift, ingenuity, and so on, so even if she uses a word some nowfind offensive, she didn't use it that way; and her Chinese readership didn't take it that way (in the '30s most of Lillooet's merchant community were Chinese; the Murrays raised tens of thousands of dollars from the local Chinese population for Chinese relief after their return from China and their very narrow escape from Shanghai.Skookum1 21:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The observations about Chinese colonists not circulating the money they earned in the goldfields was a common thread in all histories of BC, and one of the bases for anti-Chinese immigration and labour policies; it's a truism of the time that inevitably has to be addressed on History of Chinese immigration to Canada, among much else that's missing from that article (esp. the gold rush section, which should be one of the largest/most important). Making this comment to point out the realities of the time which should be represented in Wiki articles, not suppressed as they so typicall are in academia (where complaints like Murray's are dismissed as being only "racism" when in fact they were an observation of the facts plain-and-simple). Very little of the gold taken from Cayoosh Creek was declared by the Chinese miners to the local gold comissioner, by the way, and does not show up annual gold revenues for the province in that decade; this isn't to say American or British-origin miners didn't also withhold their take, but not so blatantly or en bloc as was teh case at Cayoosh; historians, writing about anti-Chinese discrmination in the same decade, point at the expulsion of Chinese from the Tulameen a few years later but do not deign to mention thte Chinese having kept out miners of other races from goldfields such as Cayoosh and others (Richfield in the Cariboo among them), hence the resentments that led to Tulameen. The point is that much ethno-history about Asian Americans or Asian Canadians has been heavily biased, with nearly all comments or behaviour by non-Asians in those histories cast in a critical light, and the Chinese rarely criticized and/or their action which led to hostilities against them dismissed with a wave of the magisterial hand and a recitement of the magical mantra "racism"; the academics are the worst of the cherry-pickers, ignoring inconvenient facts and throwing judgemental/biased opinions over events as if those opinions constituted facts; certainly they get repeated that way, as with thet dictionaries aping the claim that Chinaman is "usually offensive" without also saying "but often inoffensive"Skookum1 21:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"racial term"

I've renamed the article to "Chinaman (racial term)", like how Sambo (racial term) is named. Also, I would appreciate it if comments are made more to-the-point. If there are suggestions, please provide the sources and just state the point. I can't really reply to these long comments point-by-point. Also, please realise that the intro of the article does cover that it was not defined as offensive by an old dictionary. However, just the existence of usage itself does not mean it was not offensive. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And just because people like you find it offensive, that doesn't mean that everybody always did, which has clearly been your position; examples of passive/casual use are legion; rar more than cites from the same period which say "Chinaman is a bigoted term". Easy to find such comments post-1970, but are such comments valid as cites for a period which did not have the same value system/worldview? Of course not, it's a latter-day prejuduce that demands that certain words be labelled "offensive". Just because it was used doesn't mean it was always offensive, whether used to give offense or, when heard, as giving offense. But your insistence on citations comes back on you here - now yo'ure obliged to cite "the existence of usage itself doest not mean it was not offensive". Would you care to cite an academic paper to that effect, or indeed concerning any such word? No doubt there are some, but whether that's valid argument or not still remains; and there's lots of academic papers with faulty logic, and bad evidence/readings of evidence too. Ma Murray did not use it offensively, the Chinese in town didn't take it offensively (and still don't), but somehow you're maintaining that, by default, Ma's usage of it doesn't mean it wasn't offensive. What a load of pretentious crock.Skookum1 00:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that acceptance of usage means it's not offensive seems to be a point you're trying to prove, so I believe the burden of proof is on you. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, the burden is on you to understand and accept the proof/arguments already presented, instead of maintaining they don't exist of have no validity. Further examples than the Murray one are coming; I know the reality of the situation and while I may have to demonstrate it, I don't have to prove it because it's established material, and there's tons of it (including those census records your new article makes no mention of, curiously). The burden of proof is on YOU to demonstrate that all these other usages were "offensive", either meant as such or perceived by the people described as such; such cites do not exist, and cites of "offensiveness" are only to be found post-WWII, much more like post-JFK.Skookum1 01:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Coming from you, I'm very sorry, but it's clear the pejorative choice of phrasing "racial term" seems meant to underscore the r-word, i.e. "racism". I don't see why the neutral Chinaman (person) or Chinaman (ethnonym) are les preferable to you, except for the agenda you have which clearly needs to see this word only in racial terms; I oppose this title change; why didn't you consult before going ahead with it, as in "what about Chinaman (racial term)?" as a proposition, not an accomplished fiat. I think it's unsuitable and since "ethnonym" means the same thing without the r-word taint, I don't see why that wasn't used even though it's far preferable (obviously, you'd think, but a lot that's obvious on this side of the Pacific apparently isn't on yours).Skookum1 00:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Ethnonym" is about as POV as calling it a slang, as that implies this is the proper term to refer to Chinese people. And using "person" is not accurate because it doesn't refer to any specific person. That would be a good redirect page for Mark Britten though. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Slang" wasn't POV, it was just wrong, and "ethnonym" doesn't at all imply that it is the "proper" term to refer to Chinese people; it simply means "name for a group" and has no POV connotations unlike "racial term". I'm getting used to your disingenuous and definition-moving, but it really gets comical sometimes. How can you claim that "ethnonym" is POV while "racial term" isn't? Sheesh.Skookum1 00:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, slang was correct usage. As the proper name would be "Chinese" or "Chinese man". Also, I wonder when you'll stop assuming bad faith. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

more misdirected insults/allegations that would be better directed against yourself. How can someone show good faith tro you when you pull stuff like using "racial term" instead of "person" or "ethnonym" or other possibilities? How can you expect good faith when you marginalize evidence of non-offensive use and concentrate on definition-entries which validate your position that this word is offensive? And in the 19th Century, "the proper name" would be either "Chinese (man)" or "Chinaman"; it was no less or more proper than anything else in those days. Wrap your head around that and consider your in-built biases. And change the damned name or I will.Skookum1 01:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't take out your post; it seems that I hit "save" at the same time you did, and somehow mine overwrote yours without giving me the edit-change warning; this has happened with myself and I know other poeple in the last few days; I know one big edit of mine on another page didn't show up at all because someone else had posted at the same time, and I didn't get an edit warning; must be something going on in Wikispace; either that or I accidentally select-deleted but I was only adding at the bottom of the open section of edit page, not anything higher.Skookum1 00:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Amd NO, "slang" is NOT the proper usage. It's not slang. It may be archaic, it may be rare, but it's not slang.Skookum1 00:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If Chinaman is offensive, then what do you call someone from China? This is a serious question... I really would like to know how to refer to a Chinese person in polite conservation. I can say, "I met an Englishman today" so how do I say politely, "I met a Chinaman today."

POV phrasing

This in the wake of the one edit comment "POV phrasing" - it's incredible that even in that first sentence you have tried to skew the POV concerning this word; in fact, I'd venture that you are unable to step outside your POV to write in an objective-language fashion; it's like in each phrase you need to underscore the condemnation of this word that you so ardently feel (and which is so inappropriate). Focusing on negativity is a feature of ethno-biased writers; objectivity is rarely a strong suit when ethnic-agenda tub-thumping is at stake; the point is that the language you have written this new article with is even more POV than the phrasing at the DAB page which began this latest round of controversy. You just can't admit that the other side even exists, or has a right to, do you? I'll be ready for "good faith" in your case when I see you write something that doesn't have your usual POV=flavoured "objectivity" running and when you've written something conscionable and non-condemnatory about uses like the comedian, the Murray quote, the census and marraige records usages, etc. But no, all you want to do is focus on the controversy in the media, as if that were all there were to know about this word. Try rewriting that first paragraph without the POV tone that's so obvious; of course you won't, or can't.Skookum1 01:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Provide sources for your additions. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

De-POVize yourself and your content-additions, and consider trying to write something about the cited material on non-offensive usages I've already provided; or perhaps you don't regard the US Census as a valid source?Skookum1 01:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Provide a source. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pffft. Now I know you need a pair of those glasses ;-| Or did you just not bother to read this, which contains the genealogy.com refs to the US census files. Oh, and Ma Murray, she's cited right above me on this same page. What's your problem? Something in your eye? A little POV maybe?Skookum1 01:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, existence of usage does not imply that it's inoffensive. Nothing you've provided say that the term is not offensive. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Skookum1, whether someone needs glasses should not be part of a discussion on Wikipedia. Even if HongQiGong is a vandal, this kind of talk would still be considered a personal attack. Now my patience is wearing thin; please don't force anyone to block you. Thank you. Xiner (talk, email) 01:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]