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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 148.252.132.248 (talk) at 21:04, 25 August 2023 (→Mug shot of Donald Trump: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Mug shot of Donald Trump

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Mug shot of Donald Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Initially WP:BLAR'd by LilianaUwU, but contested. Per WP:NOPAGE, at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context. This is one of those times; the subject is adequately covered in the article Georgia election racketeering prosecution and it would be better to cover this as one topic rather than making what amounts to a premature content fork. For these reasons, this should be blanked-and-redirected to the aforementioned article, where the subject would be better covered. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Widely described as a historic photograph, the most iconic photograph of a US president ever taken. Highly anticipated and subject of extensive media commentary even for months before it was taken. Clearly notable as a photograph. --Tataral (talk) 02:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – Come on, this is all over national media and is historic for any U.S. president and is notable in its own right. Even Nixon never had a mug shot taken of him at any point. Being relevant to the prosecution of Trump doesn't make it not notable in its own right. Master of Time (talk) 02:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not contesting this photo's notability. To the contrary, WP:NOPAGE is about where we cover notable topics and how that information is organized on Wikipedia. There are cases, such as this one, where several related topics, each of them similarly notable, can be collected into a single page, where the relationships between them can be better appreciated than if they were each a separate page. It makes sense to handle this as one page rather than prematurely forking this. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Georgia election racketeering prosecution as the one who originally BLARed it. I've said it already, but indeed, the subject is covered well enough in the article I originally redirected it to, it doesn't need a fork. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 02:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As weird as it is, I'm switching my !vote to keep - there's way too many sources, and the article is pretty fleshed out, for this to be not an obvious keep. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 20:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The topic has incredible notability, sustained news coverage, and will likely keep its notability well into the future, to the point where it should be able to stand as an article of its own. The article can be reworked to focus on the photograph itself and the reactions to it, rather than the booking. Muhibm0307 (talk) 02:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close: This just happened. Wait until the buzz dies down. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 03:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as obviously notable and one of the most important images of a US president GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 03:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. Absolutely notable. RodRabelo7 (talk) 03:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. There is context in the existing article that probably isn't appropriate at the suggested merge target, so the WP:NOPAGE suggestion might not apply. Let's consider revisiting this once it's cooled a bit. Also, we need to stop nominating so many current event articles for deletion while they are current. These discussions generally go seven days. Let's try follow the spirit of WP:RAPID and wait until things have slowed down before bringing these to AfD. —siroχo 03:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Already recognized by many reliable sources as an iconic and historic photograph. Cullen328 (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The photograph has been widely covered in reliable sources and is widely recognized as historically significant. CJ-Moki (talk) 03:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pile on Keep Hardly any reason to contribute at this point, but yes this is a clearly major photo in it's own right, which already has many, many articles regarding it. Would recommend a speedy keep, as an AfD deletion while the page is no doubt being viewed a ton may come off as Wikipedia being a bit partisan (though I'm genuinely not sure in which direction, and do not feel at all this was the nominees intent). A MINOTAUR (talk) 03:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, seems to have jumped into iconic status already, and is being compared to some of the great photographs in American history. Didn't notice if the photographer is named on the page but certainly should be. An interesting instant-phenomena, and meets WP:GNG. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I understand the arguments made for this page's deletion, as we don't know the influence this will have on political events and media going forward just yet, but I think this is definitely notable enough to be its own page. In particular, we've had several news sources and commentators claim that this is a uniquely significant and/or extraordinary image of a president.[1][2][3] Independent of its subject, this image is notable as it will remain the first mugshot taken of any American president. Outside of that, we've had similar types of topics related to Trump that one could argue should be merged with other pages, but have stayed up due to having enough notability on their own. Pac-Man PHD (talk) 03:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, iconic, first of its kind for a current or former President of the United States, reliable sources are already publishing original and interpretive opinions on this and I fully expect (without going too WP:CRYSTALBALL) that this topic will only gain more detail, not less, over time. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:47, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak merge per NOPAGE. The information of this article can be easily placed into Georgia election racketeering prosecution. A stand-alone page is not needed. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 04:13, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep — International coverage of the image is already coming in. Historic, iconic, worthy of an independent article with analysis, reactions, and critiques. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 04:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution. First of all, Wikipedia is not a news site, and every single thing that is in the news does not have the long-lived notability that warrants inclusion in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia:Not every single thing Donald Trump does deserves an article. We already have an article about Donald Trump. We already have an article -- many articles -- about his 2020 election nonsense. Indeed, we have an article about the single exact criminal trial that this relates to. How about a compromise. We close the AfD now, I nominate it again in a year, we ping all the people who called it the most iconic photograph in history, and see if any of them remember this. Sure, it is the FIRST EVAR mugshot of a former president, but a lot of things are the first thing of another thing, and this doesn't make them significant or notable. In fact, this is the world-historic first-ever Wikipedia comment with the word "ggjlfedjdfs" in it (go ahead, check and see). jp×g 04:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I agree with above comments that current-events articles should probably be left alone for a few days prior to the AfD oubliette, but while we're here, we might as well go through with it. jp×g 05:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Historic event, and the length of the current article is enough to justify its existence. recentlyryan RecentlyRyan
  • Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution Much of the history section is only tangentially related to the mug shot itself and would be better covered in the main article per WP:NOPAGE. I also have doubts about the WP:SUSTAINED coverage of this. Will the case have more coverage? Absolutely. Will the mug shot in particular continue to be referenced nontrivially, such that there is more to add than dramatic descriptions of the image? I would question that, and it seems a bit premature to tell. —⁠PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 04:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sustained? This image will end up as a statue at Trump's presidential library or something, if a sculptor can get the eyes right. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a minute - the courts can refer to him as a r**ist in a written decision, but I can't? Nfitz (talk) 06:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Georgia election racketeering prosecution. Although this is a major event in American history, the mug shot should not have its own page, unless we were to also add separate pages for the mug shots of the rest of his inner circle. Consider WP:NETRUMP, and that Wikipedia is meant to be politically neutral. If I were to create a page devoted to Joe Biden stumbling as he climbed a flight of stairs, it would be speedily deleted and possibly (not likely) redirected to a section about his health in a larger article. The documentation of this event does have some merit, but not on its own. Please merge. Hotdog with ketchup (talk) 05:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The shortcoming of your argument, Hotdog with ketchup, is that the depth of coverage of the Trump mugshot is vastly greater and deeper than the depth of coverage of the mugshots of other RICO indictees. Cullen328 (talk) 07:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Sources already include:
I think the WP:RAPID section of the WP:EVENT guideline supports a keep of this article for now, because there are a variety of sources, including news analysis and commentary that indicate at minimum, further time is warranted to allow this article to develop, because international reliable sources are suggesting historical significance, and the coverage is placing this event in context. Beccaynr (talk) 06:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I think it is an important article to have given the significance of the photo. I do, however, think that a better title may be needed as the title is a bit off to me and doesn't seem like a Wikipedia article. Pacamah (talk) 07:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Unique event in U.S. history Art Smart Chart/Heart 07:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Already has articles in foreign languages claiming it is a historic photo, and it has been tweeted by the subject himself as his first post-Elon tweet. Jane (talk) 07:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and support IAR close as a significant historical photo. Happily888 (talk) 07:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I'm surprised that there have been several dozen comments and !votes, and yet no one has yet mentioned the most important and relevant policy that applies here: WP:BLP. Trump is a living person and, no matter how damning the evidence is, he is presumed innocent until proven otherwise. It is extraordinarily rare (possibly even a first here) that a mugshot of a living person who has not yet been convicted is even in consideration for inclusion (perhaps that speaks to the gravity of the moment). I do think the argument of artistic/historic/cultural value is very compelling and agree that the sources appear good for now, but am not comfortable !voting to keep a non-convicted living person's mugshot up, especially considering it is non-free. Is keep without the picture an option? Curbon7 (talk) 08:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Curbon7, the vast majority of mugshots are not notable photographs. This is the rare exception to the general rule. This particular photo is notable. A mugshot does not equate to guilt, and the presumption of innocence should always prevail. Some editors have already tried to add the mugshot to Donald Trump and various articles about his legal problems, and have been correctly reverted. But I believe that this image belongs in this well-referenced article about this iconic and historic photo, which is being embraced by both Trump's supporters and opponents. This is surely an example of a case where inclusion of a non-free image enhances the reader's understanding of the topic. Cullen328 (talk) 08:13, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I suppose so. Consider it a reluctant keep then. Curbon7 (talk) 08:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Various sources, including Reuters, report Trump is contributing to publicity of the image, so WP:BLP concerns for this WP:PUBLICFIGURE, including in WP:MUG, seem addressed by the particular context that can be developed from available sources, e.g. "Trump wasted little time using the mug shot for fundraising purposes, posting it on X, the site formerly known as Twitter, as well as on his own social media platform, Truth Social." (August 25, 2023). Beccaynr (talk) 08:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. A historic photograph, irrespective of what happens with his case. Much news coverage of that fact. 331dot (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As noted above, its historical significance is massive and it has already received immense media attention. 172.58.111.202 (talk) 08:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Not only is the topic notable, but the article is well-written with a lot of interesting commentary on the photo itself, not just on the context for it. Deserves to be a separate article, one that will clearly be widely read. NightHeron (talk) 08:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the photo itself is receiving international attention and is already a historical photograph. I wouldn't mind a merge but there's already too much information about the photo and it's likely to expand further, so a merge with the article about the case would bring undue weight to the photo which is, by any means, very marginal to the case. So a keep is the best way to keep things tidy and clear. Rkieferbaum (talk) 11:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution per WP:NOTNEWS. Yes, this has got significant coverage in reliable sources, but that doesn't mean we should have an article on it. For that it needs to have longterm significance, and even then it may be better to cover it in the article on the prosecution. The image was only taken yesterday and claims the image has enormous historic significance are premature. This is a very high profile news story and even small parts of it are likely to have substantial coverage in reliable sources. Wikipedia is not a news organisation and doesn't write articles on things just because they are in the news. Hut 8.5 11:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep firstly per WP:RAPID. This page was nominated for deletion only one hour after it was created; if a page isn't eligible for speedy deletion, then that is obviously too quick to either delete it or decry it a content fork as the nom rationale did. Beyond WP:RAPID, this probably deserves to be kept long-term as well as the photograph is likely notable on its own merits (using the weasel words like "probably" and "likely" deliberately because it's just not possible to know how notable something will be in the distant future, certainly not after less than one day, hence what WP:RAPID is for). It's not only notable for being a first for America, it's being covered around the world. It also helps that it's not just being described, but analyzed. But again (again), any claim one way or the other on notability is premature. We shouldn't be having this discussion today. Don't rush to deletion.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 11:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: historically significant in the U.S. in and of itself – shouldn't be mashed into a larger article. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 12:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: my support for keep is weak-to-moderate.
I can understand the side of delete: The most important aspects about the mugshot certainly can be summarized quickly elsewhere. And not all “firsts” related to Trump-related norm-breaking need articles. If one thinks the more detailed analysis of the photo is not necessary to preserve on Wiki and that the only notable content about it is is its existence, than it definitely would appear that this would only need a short mention in other articles rather than a spun-off article.
However, the side of keep seems stronger. This is widely discussed with analysis occurring. So there is a strong chance there’ll be lasting notability. At the moment, it indeed seems on track for lasting independent notability that lies somewhere above the threshold on notability for the project. There appears enough content and independent analysis (with more coming) than can be successfully merged: the ultimate question on whether something needs an independent article or should merely be mentioned within another.
I would not have taken the initiative to spin-off this subject. But I guess that doesn’t mean it needs deletion at this moment. SecretName101 (talk) 13:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closing admin - this discussion was closed for approximately 7 hours on 25 August 2023. I advise allowing an additional 7 hours after the usual 7 days is up to allow for this. WaggersTALK 20:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's already covered in the uk guardian and the title subject of a newsagents podcast. The subject is clearly notable and we need time to see if it's a notnews case or an enduringly separately notable subject. Keep for now. Spartaz Humbug! 20:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Mistakenly, I said my arguement on the articles Talk page but I'll copy-paste it here.
I believe its WP:Notable because he's the first president/former president in atleast 150 years to be arrested, although the mugshot having its own article is kinda Wikipedia:Silly Things it should maybe be renamed to "Prosecution of Donald Trump" or something like that, and have the whole page be about his arrest and the timeline and the events that occurred so people know what happened, sort of like Arrests of Ulysses S. Grant or, we could keep this article up, as the image is getting a lot of notoriety and fame, and there are a lot of Wikipedia pages about popular images or memes. sexy (talk) 20:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - More sources include:
Beccaynr (talk) 20:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: WP:NOTNEWS Already included in Donald Trump and Georgia election racketeering prosecution and may be appropriate elsewhere. soibangla (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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