Talk:Melungeon

Issues With Sources

Please provide good sources regarding the term Melungeon. Any studies, articles, dissertations, and the like belong in the popular culture section. Too many researchers are using this space as a way to legitimize their studies and beliefs and this is not the place for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StephanieTree (talk • contribs) 17:40, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

The article relies almost exclusively on only one source, a study by Roberta Estes, that was extremely limited in its reach. It only looked at the Melungeons of one or two very small communities in Eastern Tennessee and did not look at the genetics of Melungeons outside of those communities. Further, Estes herself has said they did in fact find one Melungeon family, the Sizemores, who did have Indigenous American ancestry. Not that many actual genetic studies have been done on these people and the only one that is being cited was 1. very limited in its scope and 2. does not support the statement that was in the article that no Melungeons have Indigenous American ancestry. I made some changes to the article to reflect upon this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C50:5CF0:7690:441F:920E:AA03:340 (talk) 19:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Cool. Please provide links to other published studies. All the unsourced conjecture needs to go. Yuchitown (talk) 00:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Misrepresenting sources

In this dif, User:Chalahbai15 introduced wp:self-published sources, but they also misrepresented published sources. For instance, they were trying to use Jill E. Rowe’s Invisible in Plain Sight: Self-Determination Strategies of Free Blacks in the Old Northwest to back up the statement that Melguneons have "roots in the Atlantic Creole communities of Portuguese, Spanish, and Sephardi Jewish lançado descent." The books only briefly mentions "Melungeons of East Tennessee" in a list of other groups. "The rise of the trans-Atlantic slave trade in Western Africa, 1300–1589" does not substantiate this statement either. Yuchitown (talk) 14:40, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Southwest Virginia vs. Western Virginia

Hi, coming here to discuss a disagreement as to whether to use "western Virginia" or "Southwest Virginia" in the infobox. I've explained my position in the edit history, and also linked to a source using the terminology (that was already linked in the infobox).

Can the other editors please explain their position on why "western Virginia" is a better term? In my head, "Southwest Virginia" makes more sense, as "western Virginia" could just as well refer to the counties of the state that border West Virginia. Whereas, the sources in the infobox, and elsewhere in the article, link Melungeons to the Cumberland Gap area and specify that the part of the state we're talking about here is where Virginia meets Kentucky and Tennessee, i.e. its southwest. Furthermore, why not link to the Southwest Virginia page but link to East Tennessee?

Appreciate the work done on this article to remove fringe theories. 2601:18D:4600:A610:3D50:F366:7820:7134 (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

My major concern at this point is the frequent reverting without discussion, which is why I asked you to discuss here. Yuchitown has made many improvements to the article recently, so let's wait for their comments. But don't revert again without a consensus here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:50, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Understandable, thanks. Would like to add to my previous comment that the book Other Souths, used a source that specifically uses the term "western Virginia" also refers to Albemarle County as being in "western Virginia near Charlottesville." Thus, for this author, western Virginia refers to a huge swath of area, including those northwestern counties of the state. Albemarle County, I think, is decidedly not in the territory associated with Melungeons or in Appalachia. Thus, I think this book actually lends more credence to using the term Southwest Virginia to be more specific. 2601:18D:4600:A610:3D50:F366:7820:7134 (talk) 18:12, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Honestly on this particular subject, I couldn't care less. Find decent secondary, published reliable sources and source the edit you want. I'm much more concerned about the wp:fringe theories creeping in and self-published sources. Yuchitown (talk) 23:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Okay, reverting to my edit that used the USA Today article as a source for "Southwest Virginia," which I made before I was asked to bring it to the talk page. 2601:18D:4600:A610:D12D:DE57:B8A4:C487 (talk) 16:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

loss of self-identification?

@Yuchitown: Per your revision of 15:17, 26 August 2023, it states:

[Plecker] directed the offices to reclassify members of certain families as black, causing the loss for numerous families of documentation in records that showed their continued self-identification as being of Native American descent.

I'm trying to parse this change. The reclassification of certain people of native American descent caused the loss of documentation of their self-identification as native Americans to be lost.

So they themselves are being identified (i.e. as "colored" or native American), but the issue is "by whom?". Adding "self" makes it seems like they're relying on the documentation as to how they identify themselves, whereas the issue is how they are identified by others who are going by whatever the documentation states. Fabrickator (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Native American is capitalized as per MOS. You appear very resistant to the verifiable truth that in the past certain Melungeon families self-identified as having Native American ancestry. No tribes identified them as such, so falls to self-identification. Yuchitown (talk) 19:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Au contraire! I am not resistant to any such claim, but the issue is how state officials identified them. Plecker insisted on changing their identification (on existing birth records) from "Indian" to "colored" with the result that subsequent offspring would, by law, be identified as "colored". Fabrickator (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Then what's the problem? Yuchitown (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Your change represents that changing the designation on birth certificates affected how they self-identified, when it actually affected how they were identified on official state records. In so doing, it also precluded descendants from being identified as "American Indian". Thus, the problem is not how they self-identify, but how they are identified by the state on their birth certificates. Fabrickator (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

But these families are the origin of the identification. The identification is not originating from any Native American tribe. Make it "self-identify on their official forms" if you want. Yuchitown (talk) 22:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown