I usually reply to posted messages here, but if the message is important I'll notify you on on your talkpage as well.
If I posted a message on your talkpage I will reply there, but feel free to notify me on my talk if you feel it is urgent.
I'd prefer it if noone removed content here, but naturally I have no objections if it's just grammar.
Please don't revert my edits on this page.
Finally: no insults. I can take criticism as much as the next guy, but outright personal attacks will be reverted and reported.
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RfC started on WikiProject Yugoslavia
Since you have taken part in substantial discussion on this matter, I am informing you that an RfC has been opened on WP Yugoslavia
[1]
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G'day Direktor. Please just work through the 21st one with me rather than going around reverting my work, which is based on reliable sources. I would appreciate it if you would revert the other one. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:35, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh fine. But, Peacemaker me old mate - you're wrong about this one sorry to say: [2]. Sure, attested as vehicle symbols your "negatives" may be, but they were not the divisional insignia (patches). -- Director(talk)08:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing: I apologize for the tone of the comment on my initial revert to the black patch. I had no idea it was you, I thought it had to have been some SS-worshipping Albanian nationalist who'd changed the symbol such that it'd be a black double-headed eagle (the Albanian eagle) - as opposed to a white double-headed eagle (which happens to be the Serbian eagle lol). -- Director(talk)09:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They are two different things, old fruit. The uniform patches were worn by troops of that "nation" within an SS division, ie in the 5th SS "Wiking" division, Finnish troops wore the Finnish patch (a lion rampant), the Dutch wore the Dutch patch (a Dutch tricolour shield). But the unit symbol was the one other units recognised them by, and it was stencilled on their vehicles and guns etc and used as a sign on the road to where the division was deployed, ie the Wiking division symbol, the Sonnenrad. Members of the Wiking division did not wear the Sonnenrad on a sleeve shield or anywhere on their uniform actually. Unit symbols have to be simple and easily cut out and stencilled. It is the same today. The paint goes inside the cut out eagle, not around it, although sometimes they would paint a darker square or circle on which the lighter unit symbol was stencilled. While there were "rules" the Waffen-SS used whatever paint was available, usually something that would stand out to an extent on camouflage or green/grey vehicle paint, white, cream, pale yellow, whatever. See File:SS Viking motorbike.jpg and File:Bundesarchiv Bild 101III-Altstadt-055-37, Russland, Panzer III, Waffen-SS-Division "Wiking".jpg for examples from the Wiking division. In any case, you can say it implies what you like, but as far as WP is concerned that is OR, and you do not have a reliable source for it. However, Keegan depicts the unit symbol exactly as it is in 21st Waffen Division of the SS vehicle symbol.svg. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:56, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the thing: they wore both. At least the Skanderbegs and similar "international" SS units did. On the collar or right sleeve you had the divisional patch (with very few exceptions white symbol on black) - and on the left some sort of national arms. This was the case with the Bosniak Handschar and Kama divisions (who carried the Croatian checkerboard), and the Skanderbegs with their Albanian black-on-red double-headed eagle. Sometimes they had both, sometimes they didn't, but either way those are two different patches both of which would ideally be worn [3][4]. From the actual preserved militaria of the division, it's patch/symbol is obvious. Also have a look at the cover of a published book specifically dedicated to the history of the 21st [5]. I'll grant you it's not Keegan, but neither does it contradict him because, from what I can gather - he only describes their vehicle symbol. Whereas, yes, the SS Divisions actually did, as a rule, have "logos". Their divisional insignia. Far from OR, I'd say this WP:BLUE. You can literally just look it up with a quick search. I figured this actual pennant of the Skanderbeg division would resolve the issue [6]. -- Director(talk)10:23, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're just wikilawyering. There is such a thing as common sense: the SS divisions had actual specific insignia as seperate from their vehicle symbols - and they're not a mystery. Looking at the matter more carefully I find these collar tabs (depicting Skanderbeg's fabulous helmet plumage) also appear [7]. One way or another I don't see why we should use the vehicle symbol. The divisional insignia was certainly either a white eagle on black or the Skanderbeg's helmet - white-on-black. Just like virtually all SS Divisions.
If you want to be technical, Keegan isn't a "source" for this at all: he describes symbols they painted on vehicles, not the divisional emblem proper. -- Director(talk)10:45, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be 100% accurate, the title of the table that bears the symbol is "Badges of the Schutzstaffeln Divisions". Littlejohn shows exactly the same symbol as Keegan, and the caption says "official vehicle sign of the division". They are both reliable sources for this being the symbol/badge/sign of the division. The Skanderbeg helmet collar patch was not issued or worn by members of the division. As far as I am concerned, you have no reliable source for your contention. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:08, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
![[3]](https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Celler_Garnison_Museum_Celle_Niedersachsen_29_Germany_German_WW2_uniforms_Africa_Middle_East%2C_13th_SS_Handschar_Division%2C_fez%2C_Wehrmacht_Afrikkorps_etc._Photo_www.euro-t-guide.com_2009_Free_use_No_known_copyright_restrictions.jpg){kind=link}
![[4]](https://i.pinimg.com/564x/93/36/10/933610e7bfc177a14ec7d85eb0470f2a.jpg){kind=link}
![[7]](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/WaffenSS/photos/S008084A.jpg){kind=link}