Talk:Upside-down question and exclamation marks

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Removed this

I removed the following from the article: "Although it has now fallen into disuse, it is actually correct usage in Spanish to begin a sentence with an opening inverted exclamation mark ('¡') and end it with a question mark ('?'), or vice-versa, for statements that are questions but also have a clear sense of exclamation or surprise such as: ¡Y tú qué te crees? ("Who do you think you are?!")."

This comment was surely made by a person who is uneducated/unknowledgeable in the subject. As a native Spanish speaker, I can assure you that '¡' and '¿' are well alive and failure to use it is an error. I NEVER ever saw such a thing as opening with '¡' and ending with '?'. The correct usage in that case would be to open with '¡¿' and end with '?!' F15x28 04:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know if the ! ? thing is correct or not, but its going to be removed, the "Adaptation in English" needs to be removed, too. That makes little sense without the !...? section.

Maybe F15x28 is a native speaker, but the fact that s/he "NEVER ever saw such a thing as opening with '¡' and ending with '?'" doesn't mean anything (or maybe, that s/he doesn't read enough...).

In any case, I reverted his edits. See this entry, section 3 b. --193.86.75.124 11:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link given above ("http://buscon.rae.es/...") does indeed mention the possibility to use mixed question and exclamation marks, and it lists other possibilities, such as double marks, but I, like F15x28, have never seen anything like that, and upon seeing it, would deem it very bad Spanish, or very bad marketingoid typography. I would suggest to change the wording of the article, so that, even if the possibility is mentioned, it is said that it is not at all customary and it is clearly very bad style.--87.217.128.39 21:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a native spanish speaker, and I've never seen this usage of mixed marks. Even if RAE claims that this is allowed, it must be noticed that a writer can choose any weird use that conveys the idea she is trying to present, without asking permission to the Academy, so the fact that one could use ¿...! isn't more interesting that the fact that one could use ¡¡¡...!!!, ¡¿...?!, ¡!¡!...!¡!¡ or any other combination, despite what RAE allows or disallows. Non-spanish speakers must notice that RAE is just a (prestigious) institution that studies and regulates the language, but its claims of what's correct and what's not are just a matter of institutional opinion. RAE rules are often refered as "the RAE says..." or "according to the RAE..." when discussing the appropriateness of some usage of the language, not as the truth about how Spanish must be spoken, and many (including me) disagree with many (including this one) of its regulations. In conclusion: the criteria for mentioning ¿...! in this article should be the actual use of this form in the language, not what an obscure regulation says. Without a source that supports the frequent use of ¿...!, that paragraph should be deleted. rbonvall 22:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One sentence?

In "Usage", second paragraph, "We're going to the beach, ¿would you like to come with us?" is surely not a "good example" because it is actually two sentences anyway. How about, "Although I don't want to, ¿would you like to go to the beach?"? I don't speak Spanish in order to do the translation.

I see what you mean; I'll give it a whirl.4.243.146.157 03:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quién vive?

In "Usage", last paragraph, "Quién vive?" is being translated as "Who's alive?", which is incorrect. "Quién vive?" is a very old (or at least very unused here, as I've never heard it) way of asking "Who's there?". "Who's alive?" would be "Quién está vivo?" --200.83.171.77 07:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Maybe a different example would make things easier: "Cómo estás?", "Quién es?".--87.217.129.39 01:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"¿Quién vive?" is the Spanish equivalent to "Who goes there?". I edited it accordingly. - Andrés D. 00:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate typography

I've seen in internet chat the use of the lower-case letter 'i' to substitute for the inverted exclamation mark '¡' - usually, however, by Anglos who are parodying Spanish. (i.e. "iiiiiGOOOOOOOAAAAAAA*cough*AAAALLLLLL!!!!!".) Not sure if this usage exists in real Spanish under situations where the actual inverted marks are difficult to type quickly or not, but I figured it might bear mentioning in the talk page. 76.21.170.28 06:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Galician language

Actually, Spanish is not the only language that uses "¡" and "¿" symbols. Galician, which is quite similar to Spanish, but itself a distinct language, uses them also. Other languages spoken within Spain, like Catalan or Basque, do not use them. No clue about Asturian and Aragonese. Maybe a short paragraph about this could be useful?

¡Split Article?

Just a suggestion: I think that there should be two separate articles here, one labeled "¡", and the other labeled "¿". What do you guys think? I won't start a vote or anything serious until i get some other views. -- Kevin ^(TALK)_(MUSIC) 20:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inverted mark -> opening mark

I propose changing the article name from Inverted marks... to Opening marks.... In Spanish it doesn't make sense seeing one mark as the normal one and the other as the inverted one, just as one doesn't refer to [ as a reflected bracket. Besides, the new name would reflect more precisely what the semantics of these marks are; the current title suggests that ¿ could have a meaning on its own, and could by used by itself like when one uses ? in English. rbonvall 23:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]