Talk:Abundance of elements in Earth's crust

Data from WebElements source

The archived page at https://web.archive.org/web/20070309033534/http://www.webelements.com/webelements/properties/text/image-flash/abund-crust.html (reference 5) shows no data and the original page no longer exists as such there is no way to check the reference (unverifiable) should this data be removed?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A wiki editor 42 (talk • contribs) 05:51, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, if it can't be verified it may be deleted. That would be the whole column then.

• BTW, column "Israel Science and Technology" source (reference 6) does not seem to be independent; just a reproduction of other source(s) if sourced at all. Delete? -DePiep (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

@DePiep I found https://webelements.com/hydrogen/geology.html (you can replace hydrogen in the URL with helium, lithium, and so on to get the rest of the elements) SVG-image-maker (talk) 13:42, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

There are problem with total %

CRC column does not give 100%, it gives more than 100%. So that this is some wrong numbers between first 13 elements. Just try to sums first 13 positions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.123.216.36 (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

The CRC column also doesn't sort properly; it seems like the table sorter is ordering entries lexicographically on that column rather than numerically, so for instance 585 (0.0585%) ranks as greater than 461,000 (46.1%); lastly, it's unclear why that column doesn't just list the percentages. 162.196.254.96 (talk) 08:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Problematic and confusing information

It seems from the archives of this page that the issue I'm about to flag has been raised before. Someone coming to this page wants to find out, quickly, the relative abundance of different chemicals. The first problem they have is that they encounter a table sorted in order, apparently listing the elements in order of abundance (so far so good). But on closer inspection, the table actually presents five attempts at a list from five different sources. Um, OK. Is one better or more reliable than the others? Why are there five? Why not one? Or fifty? Which one should be used by a school kid writing a report? If none of these is definitive or better than the others, how are we placed to present a table with rows apparently ranked in an order of abundance - if these sources disagree on the order (and they do, if you check the table around, say, nitrogen and cobalt). It's not even clear which of the sources has been used to come up with the numeric ranking of the table. In other words, wWhat does row 30 of the table actually indicate? It doesn't indicate that nitrogen is #30, because the sources seem to disagree on that. What we have is a table of apparently very accurate data (in the CRC column - to four decimal places) and yet wide disagreement - so the "accuracy" it seems to suggest is spurious? 45154james (talk) 11:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

The table is sortable on all columns. So, whichever column you sort on is the one you get. (It can also be sorted by name or Z.) If we try to say that one is better, that might be WP:OR. I don't see ones with four digits, but many have three or two, which might be too much. I am not sure that "crust" is defined accurately enough to say, and again suspect that one digit would be better. It is not required that we use the same number of digits as the source. I suspect that some are better at some elements, and worse at others. Gah4 (talk) 05:54, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Appreciate the clarification. But you see the problem. Suppose I am a school-kid writing my essay about vanadium. I come to this page, sort the table by each of the columns, and find vanadium ranks 19 (Darling), 20 (Barbalace), 18 (WE), 22 (IST) or 11 (CRC). So what do I write in my homework? :) Then I go to the article Vanadium and find "Vanadium is the 20th most abundant element in the earth's crust" - with an entirely different (random) source (none of the above). Yes, good point about WP:OR. Where the lead currently says "Estimates of elemental abundance are difficult because...", maybe it needs a few more words explaining that this is why sources differ, that there is no real answer...?? 45154james (talk) 11:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I suppose so. But also, note, that as well as is needed by such student, the difference between them doesn't really mean much. Consider the season results for some sport. It is interesting to know which team came in first, second, and third, but doesn't matter much between 18th and 21st. Though school kids might not know that, yet. Reminds me of the students in high school, or even early college years, doing labs, and then wondering what the "right" answer is. There usually isn't one. Much of these abundances vary depending on where you look. And people haven't looked everywhere, and especially deeper into the crust. Now, how much does this article need to explain it? I suppose it could do some.

As far as I know, most often people want the abundance itself, more than the rank. Lately I have (in another forum) answered a few questions about the abundance of uranium. It is interesting how high it is, much higher than gold, and close to tin, which we commonly think of as a cheap metal. However, more important than abundance is the actual concentration where you are looking Many metals have places where they occur in much higher concentration. There aren't so many of those for uranium. Much of it is in low concentration well distributed. But the article also doesn't explain that. Gah4 (talk) 14:31, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you're convincing me that maybe a short paragraph at the start of the article outlining some of these very points might be a good idea. I might try to draft a few ideas later. Thanks again! 45154james (talk) 08:03, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Barbalance part 2

I propose to remove the Barbalace column, due to some wildly different values for B, Br and W. Also we cannot tell where Barbalace got its information from, so it is not actually a reliable source. If no one objects or does it before me, I will act later in April 2023. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:14, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The column should be removed. The Boron abundance figure of 950 ppm sticks out like a sore thumb. It looks like a typo, given that the next column gives a figure of 8.7 ppm.

Also, and more importantly, the Barbalance column links to a website calling itself 'environmental chemistry' with a heavy bias to pollution issues. Even more importantly the link doesn't take us to a table with elemental abundance data, just a period table, and I couldn't easily find any such data on the site.92.12.82.119 (talk) 13:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Well you have to click on each element and scroll down to find the info. But I don't hold the navigation against it, just the data and lack of providence. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:36, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett It's entirely possible that they meant 9.50, they just forgot the decimal point. You can try to contact Barbalace if it was just a typo. (the link is at the bottom of [1]) There's a section at [2] called "Periodic Table of Elements Bibliography" which is where the data comes from. In addition, [3] shows another source, namely N. N. Greenwood and A. Earnshaw's Chemistry of the Elements, 2nd Edition. SVG-image-maker (talk) 13:53, 4 August 2023 (UTC)