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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2607:fea8:28e0:9170:5de1:71fb:9cf1:f80b (talk) at 10:31, 12 October 2023 (→Gaza: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Before writing a comment please read the comments below, and add yours in the most relevant section, or add a new section if nothing similar exists.


Child abductions in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Several sources referred to Child abductions in the Russian invasion of Ukraine as genocide. According to the Genocide Convention, child abduction is genocide, so it should be added to the list. Parham wiki (talk) 16:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this should be added now. Last week New Lines Institute published a report saying Russia is continuing and escalating genocide in Ukraine.[1]  —Michael Z. 14:47, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Related discussion: Talk:Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#Requested move 4 August 2023.  —Michael Z. 15:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 August 2023

Add Uyghur genocide to this article. Uyghur genocide has plenty of reliable sources. It is strange that Uyghur genocide was already added into the article last year, but someone else secretly removed it. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:357A:C9DF:9D11:1110 (talk) 20:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mzajac Courtesy tagging since he added it in last year. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:357A:C9DF:9D11:1110 (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. This was previously discussed:
Main objections were that this was then a list of genocides by death toll, although the inclusion criteria didn’t seem to require having one even then. Other objections were that this is not a genocide, although I’d argue that the title of the article Uyghur genocide and its inclusion in categories such as Category:Genocides in Asia indicates there is consensus to consider it as such, and therefore it is justified for inclusion in this list with its inclusion criteria in mind.
I added it on October 9, 2022,[2]. It was deleted by @Florian Blaschke on December 20, 2022.[3] Sorry I hadn’t noticed. The comment on removal was that it was unsourced, so I will restore it and try to find suitable reference from the main article. —Michael Z. 21:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done[4]  —Michael Z. 21:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting Removal of "Native American Genocide"

The article disclaimer states that the list "only considers acts which are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides by the legal definition of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide."

None of the sources show that outside of specific events, such as the California genocide, that the disease mortality estimates (for which there is extreme uncertainty given uncertainty of both population estimates and population decline) in any way shape or form meet the legal definition of genocide as per the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

The 'genocide' being referred to here is the interaction of tens of milillons of people across centuries of which most mortality is attributed to disease which likewise killed tens of millions in the 'Old World.'

To quote Grenke 2005, p. 199: "For the most part, however, the diseases that decimated the Natives were caused by natural contact. These Native peoples were greatly weakened, and as a result, they were less able to resist the Europeans. However, diseases themselves were rarely the sources of the genocides nor were they the sources of the deaths which were caused by genocidal means. The genocides were caused by the aggressive actions of one group towards another."

Even Russel Thornton has pointed out that there were disastrous epidemics and population losses during the first half of the sixteenth century “resulting from incidental contact, or even without direct contact, as disease spread from one American Indian tribe to another.”  Thornton has also challenged higher Indigenous population estimates, which are based on the Malthusian assumption that “populations tend to increase to, and beyond, the limits of the food available to them at any particular level of technology."

PresidentCoriolanus (talk) 01:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed per the outcome of this RFC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Freoh and KetchupSalt:, I see in the archive that you two discussed this, so I'm letting you know why I removed it. This was a long running dispute, so I opened an RFC to determine consensus. The result was pretty solidly not to include it as a single event on the list. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:14, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For a while I read what PresidentCoriolanus wrote as claiming that there was no genocidal intent whatsoever, which would be silly. For example Hernán Cortés' conquest of the Maya used the already spreading diseases to great effect. Likewise the deliberate spread of disease by English colonists is well documented, and there can be little doubt that such acts did not have genocidal intent. But these are more isolated events. The Indian Wars may serve as a good entry, and I wouldn't be surprised that there are sources listing the number of dead, and the genocidal intent is clear. The introduction of distilled alcohol also plays a role in the destruction of the aboriginal American nations.
I agree the extrapolation of population figures, especially for a largely hunter-gatherer economy, is dubious. Some authors may unwittingly apply capitalist mores on a pre-capitalist continent. Just because England experienced immense squalor thanks to industrialization and the dispossession of the peasantry does not mean the pre-contact Americas was anything like England. The myth of the tragedy of the commons follows a similar incorrect line of thinking that peasants (and hunter-gatherers) are stupid.
I will point out that not fitting the UN definition of genocide has not been a hindrance to adding other events to this list. Lack of intent is no hindrance to some editors, logic be damned. KetchupSalt (talk) 10:48, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are many instances of genocidal intent and massacres committed by European-American and Native American populations alike in the 500 years of post-contact history. The California genocide and other identifiable genocides are already included in the article. There are grounds to include other massacres as well.
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But even with massacres such as the Conquest of the Desert we should be careful when earmarking them for inclusion. Initially, I thought that should be included, but after further reading, it is clear there was not a genocidal intent with Adolfo Alsina, Minister of War under President Nicolás Avellaneda, stating the goal was "to populate the desert, and not to destroy the Indians." Like many conflicts in the Americas, they are complex, in this case the government signed a peace treaty with a Chieftain but he broke it a short time later and massacred 400 Argentinians. Yet in the subsequent retaliation, 1000 Mapuche including civilians were killed. It would be an autochthonous bias to list one massacre in the conflict and not the other.
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The consideration of the ongoing spread of disease in the planning of strategy for conquest is not necessarily genocidal. According to the Spanish conquest of the Maya page, conquistadors wanted to 'convert and pacify' the population (which I would consider a form of cultural genocide). The page states that "although disease was responsible for the majority of deaths, Spanish expeditions and internecine warfare between indigenous groups also played their part" which is correct, but this is applicable to most of the world. The tens of millions of deaths from the same diseases in the old world occurred across centuries too, centuries with thousands of conflicts.
"Likewise the deliberate spread of disease by English colonists is well documented" - KetchupSalt
A proponent of the characterization of coexistence, conflict, and tens of millions of interactions across 500 years of history, Jeffery Ostler, himself states in his book, Surviving genocide : Native nations and the United States from the American Revolution to Bleeding Kansas:
"Some writers have provided examples of Europeans intentionally inflicting Indians with disease (usually through blankets infected with smallpox) and argued for their typicality. But the evidence marshalled thus far has failed to dislodge a scholarly consensus that the intentional infliction of disease was rare."
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There is at least one documented instance of military commanders discussing the possibility, but not as far as I am aware any proof that it was ever actually carried out. According to an interview for History.com, historian Philip Ranlet of Hunter College says that:
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"'There is no evidence that the scheme worked,”'Ranlet says. 'The infection on the blankets was apparently old, so no one could catch smallpox from the blankets. Besides, the Indians just had smallpox—the smallpox that reached Fort Pitt had come from Indians—and anyone susceptible to smallpox had already had it.'"
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"'That’s the one documented case that we have,' says Paul Kelton, a historian at Stony Brook University, and author of two books on the role of epidemics in the European takeover of the Americas. It’s not known whether Bouquet actually followed up on Amherst’s letter and made additional attempts on his own to spread smallpox to the Native Americans, he says."
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If the Indian Wars are included, which involved a variety of conflicts with a variety of objectives, with massacres conducted by both sides. the list should then be expanded to include all wars in history that involved displacement or massacres. Or every instance of displacement should be included (that of Pied Noirs, the Roman exile of the Jews, etc). Thousands if not tens of thousands of wars of territorial expansion have occurred in history (the ancient Chinese wars of expansion were actually some of the most deadly and should then be included). Not against inclusion, just the list should then be consistent. PresidentCoriolanus (talk) 01:07, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We still can't do line breaks here... PresidentCoriolanus (talk) 01:07, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Try using {{pb}} instead of <br>. It looks like whatever editor you're using is applying nowiki tags to the line break tag. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:11, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is at least one documented instance of military commanders discussing the possibility, but not as far as I am aware any proof that it was ever actually carried out. It was at least attempted, but yes we don't know whether it was effective or whether it happened more than once. The fort Pitt incident may have been one of expedience. I did a quick search and came up with this history.com article (which I guess is the one you mention) and this allthatsinteresting.com article. But this is mostly an aside.
I agree we shouldn't inflate the meaning of genocide. In fact doing so is a popular tactic of Holocaust deniers. In the end we have to go with what reliable sources say. KetchupSalt (talk) 11:27, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thinking a bit about it, estimating the pre-contact population is similar to counting trees in a forest. This text by Lewis Lord even mentions planimetry, which is the tool traditionally used in forestry. Kroeber's one person per 256 ha estimate sounds quite low, just on the grounds of game yield. An interesting question, but still, population decline alone does not a genocide make. KetchupSalt (talk) 11:04, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting input on the addition of specific genocides in the Americas

The following seem to meet our criteria for inclusion in the list, but II want others input before I add any of them:

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Conquest of the Desert might not qualify per the discussion above and per WP:LISTV, especially these parts: Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics and Ensure that the criteria for inclusion in the list are neutral and based on widely accepted definitions of terms. I see that we now explicitly list the UN definition of genocide, so we should be careful that sources list a) intent and b) destruction of peoples as such. Mere military conquests do not qualify, nor does mere ethnic cleansing of an area.
The other four examples look fine to me. KetchupSalt (talk) 14:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Girard, Philippe R. (2005). "Caribbean genocide: racial war in Haiti, 1802–4". Patterns of Prejudice. 39 (2): 138–161. doi:10.1080/00313220500106196. ISSN 0031-322X. S2CID 145204936. The Haitian genocide and its historical counterparts [...] The 1804 Haitian genocide
  2. ^ Moses, Dirk A.; Stone, Dan (2013). Colonialism and Genocide. Routledge. p. 63. ISBN 978-1-317-99753-5.
  3. ^ Forde, James (2020). The Early Haitian State and the Question of Political Legitimacy: American and British Representations of Haiti, 1804—1824. Springer. p. 40. ISBN 978-3-030-52608-5.
  4. ^ Andermann, Jens. Argentine Literature and the 'Conquest of the Desert', 1872-1896, Birkbeck, University of London. Quote: "It is this sudden acceleration, this abrupt change from the discourse of 'defensive warfare' and 'merciful civilization' to that of 'offensive warfare' and of genocide, which is perhaps the most distinctive mark of the literature of the Argentine frontier."
  5. ^ The Argentine Military and the Boundary Dispute With Chile, 1870-1902, George V. Rauch, p. 47, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1999
  6. ^ Carroll, Rory (13 January 2011). "Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer". The Guardian.
  7. ^ "Pruebas irrefutables demuestran el genocidio de la población charrúa". LARED21 (in Spanish). 2009-08-30. Retrieved 2021-01-13.
  8. ^ Albarenga, Pablo (2017-11-10). "Where did Uruguay's indigenous population go?". EL PAÍS. Retrieved 2021-01-13.
  9. ^ Rospigliosi, Fernando (1996). Las Fuerzas Armadas y el 5 de abril: la percepción de la amenaza subversiva como una motivación golpista. Lima, Peru: Instituto de Estudios Peruanos. pp. 46–47.
  10. ^ Gaussens, Pierre (2020). "The forced serilization of indigenous population in Mexico in the 1990s". Canadian Journal of Bioethics. 3 (3): 180+. doi:10.7202/1073797ar. S2CID 234586692. a government plan, developed by the Peruvian army between 1989 and 1990s to deal with the Shining Path insurrection, later known as the 'Green Plan', whose (unpublished) text expresses in explicit terms a genocidal intention
  11. ^ Burt, Jo-Marie (September–October 1998). "Unsettled accounts: militarization and memory in postwar Peru". NACLA Report on the Americas. 32 (2). Taylor & Francis: 35–41. doi:10.1080/10714839.1998.11725657. the military's growing frustration over the limitations placed upon its counterinsurgency operations by democratic institutions, coupled with the growing inability of civilian politicians to deal with the spiraling economic crisis and the expansion of the Shining Path, prompted a group of military officers to devise a coup plan in the late 1980s. The plan called for the dissolution of Peru's civilian government, military control over the state, and total elimination of armed opposition groups. The plan, developed in a series of documents known as the "Plan Verde," outlined a strategy for carrying out a military coup in which the armed forces would govern for 15 to 20 years and radically restructure state-society relations along neoliberal lines.
  12. ^ Getgen, Jocelyn E. (Winter 2009). "Untold Truths: The Exclusion of Enforced Sterilizations from the Peruvian Truth Commission's Final Report". Third World Journal. 29 (1): 1–34. This Article argues that these systematic reproductive injustices constitute an act of genocide ... those individuals responsible for orchestrating enforced sterilizations against indigenous Quechua women arguably acted with the necessary mens rea to commit genocide since they knew or should have known that these coercive sterilizations would destroy, in whole or in part, the Quechua people. Highly probative evidence with which one could infer genocidal intent would include the Family Planning Program's specific targeting of poor indigenous women and the systematic nature of its quota system, articulated in the 1989 Plan for a Government of National Reconstruction, or 'Plan Verde.' ... The Plan continued by arguing ... the targeted areas possessed 'incorrigble characters' and lacked resources, all that was left was their 'total extermination.'
  13. ^ Carranza Ko, Ñusta (2020-09-04). "Making the Case for Genocide, the Forced Sterilization of Indigenous Peoples of Peru". Genocide Studies and Prevention. 14 (2): 90–103. doi:10.5038/1911-9933.14.2.1740. ISSN 1911-0359. a genocide did occur ... there was a case of genocide that involved the state against the reproductive rights of an ethnic minority, an institutionalized genocide via a state policy.
  14. ^ "La esterilización forzada en Perú fue el mayor genocidio desde su colonización". Centro Amazónico de Antropología y Aplicación Práctica (CAAAP) (in Spanish). 2016-05-31. Retrieved 2021-08-04.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  15. ^ Back, Michele; Zavala, Virginia (2018). Racialization and Language: Interdisciplinary Perspectives From Perú. Routledge. pp. 286–291. Retrieved 4 August 2021. At the end of the 1980s, a group of military elites secretly developed an analysis of Peruvian society called El cuaderno verde. This analysis established the policies that the following government would have to carry out in order to defeat Shining Path and rescue the Peruvian economy from the deep crisis in which it found itself. El cuaderno verde was passed onto the national press in 1993, after some of these policies were enacted by President Fujimori. ... It was a program that resulted in the forced sterilization of Quechua-speaking women belonging to rural Andean communities. This is an example of 'ethnic cleansing' justified by the state, which claimed that a properly controlled birth rate would improve the distribution of national resources and thus reduce poverty levels. ... The Peruvian state decided to control the bodies of 'culturally backward' women, since they were considered a source of poverty and the seeds of subversive groups
  16. ^ "Editorial - Genocidio Arana". La Nación (in Spanish). Retrieved 10 June 2020.
  17. ^ FG (5 April 2017). "La fiebre del caucho y el genocidio indígena del Putumayo, Colombia". Red Filosófica del Uruguay (in European Spanish). Retrieved 10 June 2020.

Cdjp1 (talk) 12:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1793-1794 French Genocide: The Vendée

2600:1003:B134:1EE8:C8CD:800D:FC8E:E5F8 (talk) 01:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 September 2023

Change [Turkey]] in the Greek/Pontic Greek Genocide entry to [[Turkey]]. SRG372 (Talk • Edits) 21:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 21:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Boxer Rebellion

I believe the Boxer Rebellion should be added as a genocide. It was ethnic cleansing of Christians and foreigners in Norther China, & it definitely fits the definition of a genocide. Just because it was also a war doesn’t mean it wasn’t a genocide, for example take the Bosnian War. 67.226.222.24 (talk) 04:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Christians are not a nation. Also please provide a source. The Boxer Rebellion makes zero mention of it being a genocide and a quick Web search on "Boxer Rebellion genocide" yields nothing. Finally ethnic cleansing and genocide are not the same thing. KetchupSalt (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza

Please be watching as it seems we are witnessing a genocide of massive proportions happening in Gaza right now. With no power water and food gas or media coverage , we likely won’t know the numbers for weeks or months but it will be grave. 2607:FEA8:28E0:9170:5DE1:71FB:9CF1:F80B (talk) 10:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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