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Talk:7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2.55.164.196 (talk) at 18:20, 13 October 2023 (→Hamas document: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

History attribution

Article is a WP:CFORK from 2023 Israel–Hamas war per talk page consensus there; for history see that page. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 19:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 October 2023

Operation Al-Aqsa Flood → ? – There are concerns that the name "Operation Al-Aqsa flood" might be POV. So what should this page be moved to? Options are:

  • Operation Al-Aqsa flood (status quo)
  • A descriptive title like "October 2023 Palestinian attack on Israel":
  • Something like "2023 Hamas attacks on Israel" is probably fine- adequately describes the culprit (Hamas) and target- albeit to avoid any further attacks later in the war being ambiguous, "October 7, 2023 Hamas attacks" would work. I don't think using Hamas's operation name Al-Aqsa Flood is neutral but I remain open to being persuaded either way on the best alternative title. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 20:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Operation al-Aqsa flood" is used by Times of Israel[1], albeit in quotes.VR talk 22:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, "2023 Hamas attacks on Israel" describes the event best. Sheesheesh (talk) 12:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Invasion" is a somewhat incongruous term in the context, in that Gazan militants are less coming from the outside and invading anywhere so much as they are breaking out of the blockaded Gaza Strip. Invasion implies a much more external scenario, whereas this is occupied versus occupier. Incursion would be more passable, so something like 2023 incursion into (southern) Israel might be more the way to go for an WP:NCE title, much as Israeli intrusions into the Palestinian West Bank are often called 'incursions'. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This. All of this but I think your proposal could use some modifications. Hamas incursion into Israel, with or without the year sound much better and natural. Killuminator (talk) 20:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The whole sole association with Hamas is deeply murky, with the exact make-up in terms of group affiliation of the militants that made their way into Israel being basically unknown, but at the very least it is known that the PIJ was also involved - so having just Hamas in the title would be a misnomer unless it became 'Hamas-led' instead. The issues with finding a natural descriptive title is perhaps one of the points currently in favour of the operational name, since that is at least both recognisable and precise by default. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The good thing about 2023 incursion into Israel is that it wonderfully meets the criterion "titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that", since there was no other major incursion into Israel in 2023 besides this. But I'm not sure if its a common name, or if there is even a common name.VR talk 22:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We should use recognizable names instead of brainstorming what we think is the most accurate description of an event. The current name serves that function well, for now at least. Pages like Case White, Case Black, Operation Southeast Croatia andOperation Corridor 92 are all pages about controversial events and they're named after code names used by people who carried out these events. Using the easily identifiable names for these historic events is not the same as endorsing them. None of the proposed names are persuasive either, especially invasion. Killuminator (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Killuminator: can you provide some evidence that this name is recognizable? VR talk 22:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vice regent: — Al Jazeera, Reuters, & The United Nations (UN) are a few WP:RS examples. Copied from my oppose !vote below this reply. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How is it POV? It’s the name of the military operation The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 08:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's POV but its allowed if its reported by most reliable sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:10, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’d say 2023 Hamas offensive in (or) into Israel 78.171.249.53 (talk) 11:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support naming back to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. We don't know yet what the common name will be. Until we know, the name should be descriptive and neutral, even if that means less precise. –St.nerol (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment, it's interesting they don't mention anything like "Hamas" or "Palestinian militant" in the name.VR talk 22:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The present name is used by several reliable sources including: Al Jazeera, Reuters, & The United Nations (UN). Heavily biased/one sided operation names are articles on Wikipedia (example is Operation Overlord). The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 14:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note that we have a redirect Hamas attack on Israel, 2023. My very best wishes (talk) 17:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, based on the usage in sources (e.g. [2]), "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" is NOT applied to the actions by Israeli forces ("The sword of iron"), which are the most significant part of the war right now. This is not a common name for the entire war. My very best wishes (talk) 16:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article was specifically for the Hamas operation, where “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” is the WP:COMMONNAME for their specific operation. Same as how we (Wikipedia) have an article Operation Overlord, which is the name of an allied invasion in WWII. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sure. This article is specifically for the Hamas (and allied militant groups) operation that started the war. My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To make this nonsensical argument work, you need another separate article for the Israeli operation as well as the war article which is both operations together...duh. Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why? We have a separate big page about the war already. As about the Sword of Iron - that's irrelevant. We may or may not have such page in a future. My very best wishes (talk) 17:04, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If that's irrelevant so is this. Selfstudier (talk) 17:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS says we do not. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that people searching online would know this name or search it, they would search for an attack/massacre because these are the words used by media. Sheesheesh (talk) 17:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most would just be searching Israel Gaza/Hamas war by now. Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Searching for it is irrelevant. Would you randomly search for “Operation Overlord”? Probably not and not many people would because the most famous part of Operation Overlord is D-Day. That said, Wikipedia still has an article about it, despite not being the most “searched” item. The WP:COMMONNAME, even proved by several secondary reliable sources (Al Jazeera, Reuters, & The United Nations (UN)) show it is a common term for the Hamas attack on 7 October. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Reuters article you linked to shows the conflict with using the term operation al-aqsa flood: "Israel calls last week's devastating attack by Hamas its 9/11 moment. The secretive mastermind behind the assault, Palestinian militant Mohammed Deif, calls it Al Aqsa Flood."
Calling it a massacre/attack describes what happened, it is neutral not taking a side or using a name from any side.
I don't understand the logic yet of using operation al-aqsa flood as the title. Sheesheesh (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
this current title is completely insensitive. it wasn't some miliary operation, it was a horrible and barbaric massacre of civilians. to use their name for it would be as if we are supporting it. 2603:7000:6400:E058:A82E:923C:6040:C38B (talk) 17:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@2603:7000:6400:E058:A82E:923C:6040:C38B: — Do you have a source specifically stating “it wasn’t a military operation”? The United Nations stated and I quote, “On Saturday, 7 October — a Jewish sabbath day, the end of the weeklong Jewish festival of Sukkot, and a day after the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War — Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups launched Operation al-Aqsa Flood, a coordinated assault consisting of land and air attacks into multiple border areas of Israel.” Obviously this comment is very opinionated, but as far as Wikipedia policy (and the United Nations is for that matter) concerned, this was a military operation. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This whole article is just a POV fork, I am thinking deletion/merge nomination is the way to go here. Selfstudier (talk) 17:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Selfstudier: Do you have a reliable source for the accusation that it is a POV fork? If your argument is based on common name and/or not being a military invasion, then you just accused the UN of being POV when it also stated the name of the operation was this. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominated for deletion/remerge. Selfstudier (talk) 17:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Selfstudier: Why on earth would you start an AfD in the middle of the RM? That is blatant disruptive editing and serves no purpose except beating the point because of a “I have to be right” mentality. I urgently request you withdraw your AfD until the RM concludes, at which point, you can continue the AfD. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:15, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some name ideas

South Israel Massacres

South Israel Attacks

2023 South Israel Massacres

2023 South Israel Attacks

The Rape of Israel(not for an article title, but it's a common nickname in Israeli circles referencing the similarly horrific Rape of Nanking and should probably be included in bold as an alt name)

And whatever Hebrew term gets settled on in like, a year 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:3D5F:6959:A5A9:4E9B (talk) 04:34, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Minor grammar mistake

Please make the edit below

−
"No residents of Nir Am were harmed. Inbal Rabin-Lieberman, the 25-year-old security coordinator, alongside her uncle Ami, they led a guard detail so alert that killed two militants attempting to infiltrate a nearby chicken farm."
+
"No residents of Nir Am were harmed. Inbal Rabin-Lieberman, the 25-year-old security coordinator, alongside her uncle Ami, led a guard detail so alert that killed two militants attempting to infiltrate a nearby chicken farm."

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 13:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on including the attack in the list of major terrorist incidents

See here. François Robere (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hamas document

"The mission of the department - to attack Kibbutz Alumim with the aim of obtaining as many casualties as possible, taking hostages and preparing within the Kibbutz until further instructions are received." publish at kan. https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/566768/ 2.55.164.196 (talk) 18:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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