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"Canadian terrorists"

WP:ONUS is very clear that the other party should be starting this discussion, but through their edit warring, they insist I do, so meh.

"Canadian ... terrorists" is a gross violation of NPOV and should not be in the article, let alone the lead. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  20:13, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute is not about the inclusion of new content; it is about the outright removal the old, long-standing[1] [2][3][4] and also well-sourced content. Here is the stable revision that includes the content before it was removed without any explanation.


Brief explanation of the removed content: A bomb was placed by Canada-based terrorists belonging to the Sikh-Khalistan nationalist ideology.


Your claim that this content is a violation of NPOV is baseless and wholly your personal opinion. The content is literally the most significant view mentioned in top relevant sources on Air India Flight 182. Not to mention it is fully backed-up by a plethora of best sources including the ones published by Oxford University Press and the Canadian government report.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][5][16][6][7] The bombing of the plane was indeed a terrorist attack and those who placed the bomb were based in Canada and were Khalistanis. (fully sourced; not disputed)
And yet you insist the this content should be removed simply because you believe it is "anti-Canadian" to state that the terrorists were based in Canada, and as such you have been disruptively removing the content and the sources that actually improve the article. Personal opinions should not matter here. Wiki policies should not be misused or misinterpreted to censor or hide significant viewpoints from an article.
Not including "who placed the bomb?" and hiding the identity of the perpetrators (as is discussed in many sources) is a violation of WP:Censor and NPOV. There is absolutely no reason why the content (planted by....)[8] should be removed disregarding the whole academic literature. Stormbird (talk) 09:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Smasongarrison We need your opinions here on this matter. An editor has removed a significant viewpoint that identifies who planted the bomb on Air India Flight 182, which is covered in many high-quality sources. I suggest the restoration of the removed content as per your revision Stormbird (talk) 10:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop pinging me on this, you've done so several times. I do not have opinions on this issue. My "revision" was updating the category. Mason (talk) 19:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They were ideologically motivated; their country has nothing to do with the plot and should not be given the incredible amount of WP:WEIGHT you are trying to give it in the lead. There is no reason to do so and it is not censorship to remove it. If you want to fix it to remove refences to country of origin, feel free, I won't oppose that. But you are trying to imply that Canada is a country which harbours terrorists, which is unacceptable and a violation of NPOV, since this is an Indian government talking point and not at all a significant viewpoint. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:46, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I explained in the article that the term Canadian means "based in Canada". This is quite different from saying Canada harbors terrorists.
The sources cited are of high quality, published by top universities in the world, and have nothing to do with the Indian government. It's isn't a violation of NPOV.
The original content you removed is clearly of due weight as it appears to be one of the most significant views in sources describing the Air India 182 attack. It isn't undue.
Your reason for the deletion is totally based on your own personal views and should not override what many sources say about the attack. Stormbird (talk) 06:07, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've already added "terrorists" back into the article. I recognize that I shouldn't have removed that word from the lead. So now what problem remains? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  06:31, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't really tell us anything about who those terrorists were. That terrorists were based in Canada is well-supported by several credible sources[17][18]Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).[19][20][9][21][22]. Unless there are other reputable sources disputing this content, it should be restored in the article as per the last revision. We can reword the content (if necessary) instead of outrightly removing it. Stormbird (talk) 07:18, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That can easily be explained in prose, without giving false implications though. The lead is fine as it is now, especially with the mastermind being added in this edit. Your version falsely implicated all Canadian Sikhs. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have already explained that it doesn't implicate all Canadians. The removal of the term Canadian and other content is a clear case of Wikipedia:Censorship. Stormbird (talk) 07:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia's policies (especially those on ... using a neutral point of view)" I have already explained that removing the word "Canadian" (and frankly, "Sikh" as well for that matter) violates NPOV by placing WP:UNDUE weight on nationality and religion. An example of a more appropriately neutral article is American Airlines Flight 11, which states "...by five al-Qaeda terrorists... rather than "Saudi Muslim terrorists". With respect to WP:OTHERSTUFF, we need not include the organization here, as the second paragraph covers this adequately, and in line with WP:BLPCRIME. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  08:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Frías, Ana Salinas de; Samuel, Katja; White, Nigel (19 January 2012). Counter-Terrorism: International Law and Practice. Oxford University Press. p. 335. ISBN 9780199608928.
  2. ^ Bell, Stewart (2014). "6. Leadership and the Toronto 18". In Bruce Hoffman; Fernando Reinares (eds.). The Evolution of the Global Terrorist Threat: From 9/11 to Osama bin Laden's Death. New York: Columbia University Press. p. 144. ISBN 978-0-231-16898-4.
  3. ^ Flight 182 (Canada), Commission of Inquiry into the Investigation of the Bombing of Air India; Major, John Charles (2010). Air India Flight 182: A Canadian Tragedy. Commission of Inquiry into the Investigation of the Bombing of Air India Flight 182. p. 21. ISBN 9780660199269.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
  4. ^ Laqueur, Walter (1999). The New Terrorism: Fanaticism and the Arms of Mass Destruction. Oxford University Press. p. 3. ISBN 978-0-19-514064-4.
  5. ^ Owens, John E.; Pelizzo, Riccardo (2010-06-21). The War on Terror" and the Growth of Executive Power?": A Comparative Analysis. Routledge. p. 158. ISBN 978-1-136-95694-2.
  6. ^ O'Kane, Rosemary H. T. (2014-06-06). Terrorism. Routledge. p. 91. ISBN 978-1-317-86057-0.
  7. ^ "Suspects in the Air India Bombing". ABC News.
  8. ^ "Investigation into the Kanishka Bombing 1985".
  9. ^ "Lessons to be learned".
  10. ^ Lewis, Zachary R.; Schwaeble, Kathryn L.; Birkland, Thomas A. (2020-06-30), "Crisis Agenda-Setting and Aviation Security Policy After the September 11 Attacks", Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Politics, ISBN 978-0-19-022863-7, retrieved 2023-09-20
  11. ^ Spencer, A. (2010-04-14). The Tabloid Terrorist: The Predicative Construction of New Terrorism in the Media. Springer. p. 18. ISBN 978-0-230-28130-1.
  12. ^ Spencer, A. (2010-04-14). The Tabloid Terrorist: The Predicative Construction of New Terrorism in the Media. Springer. p. 18. ISBN 978-0-230-28130-1.
  13. ^ Pauly, Robert J.; Jr (2016-03-23). The Ashgate Research Companion to US Foreign Policy. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-317-04116-0.
  14. ^ Owens, John E.; Pelizzo, Riccardo (2010-06-21). The War on Terror and the Growth of Executive Power?: A Comparative Analysis. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-136-95693-5.
  15. ^ Lombardi, M.; Ragab, E.; Chin, V. (2014-12-09). Countering Radicalisation and Violent Extremism Among Youth to Prevent Terrorism. IOS Press. p. 15. ISBN 978-1-61499-470-1.
  16. ^ Lombardi, M.; Ragab, E.; Chin, V. (2014-12-09). Countering Radicalisation and Violent Extremism Among Youth to Prevent Terrorism. IOS Press. p. 15. ISBN 978-1-61499-470-1.
  17. ^ Malji, Andrea (2022-09-30). Religious Nationalism in Contemporary South Asia (1 ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 31. doi:10.1017/9781108919050. ISBN 978-1-108-91905-0.
  18. ^ Cite error: The named reference :0 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  19. ^ Lewis, Zachary R.; Schwaeble, Kathryn L.; Birkland, Thomas A. (2020-06-30), "Crisis Agenda-Setting and Aviation Security Policy After the September 11 Attacks", Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Politics, ISBN 978-0-19-022863-7, retrieved 2023-09-20
  20. ^ Lombardi, M.; Ragab, E.; Chin, V. (2014-12-09). Countering Radicalisation and Violent Extremism Among Youth to Prevent Terrorism. IOS Press. p. 15. ISBN 978-1-61499-470-1.
  21. ^ Webb, Matthew J. (2016-10-04). Separatist Violence in South Asia: A comparative study. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-317-39311-5.
  22. ^ Cameron, David R. (2022). The Daily Plebiscite: Federalism, Nationalism, and Canada. University of Toronto Press. p. 256. ISBN 978-1-4875-2421-0.

Change name or Split Article to "1985 Air India Bombings"

More appropriate title as used in WP:RS sources is "1985 Air India Bombing: AI flight 182". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66909820 RogerYg (talk) 06:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The bombing of Air India Flight 182 was part of a larger transnational terrorist plot which included a plan to bomb two Air India planes. The first bomb was meant to explode aboard Air India Flight 301,

RfC about Changing page name

Air India Flight 182 → ? – Current page Title is misleading & does not mention the main issue of the Bombing. This RFC is about: Should the name of this Wiki page be changed to include "bombing" either as "1985 Air India Bombing: AI flight 182" or "Air India Flight 182 bombing RogerYg (talk) 07:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 14:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead sentence as per WP:AVINAME

The current lead sentence violated the lead sentence guidelines as per WP:AVINAME Style guidelines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Style_guide/Naming

  • Where an aviation incident article does not use a common name or descriptive name as a title, and instead begins with the opening sentence: Airline Flight XYZ...., it should go on to immediately describe the notability of the incident in as few as words as possible. For this reason, it is not necessary in the opening line to clarify that the flight number may still be in use, or where it is normally scheduled to fly - this is because the normal flight or flight number is not the subject of the article. For example:
  1. Correct: Madeup Airline Flight 123 was a passenger flight from Somewhere to Somewhere Else, that on such and such a day, failed/crashed/blew up/was hijacked.
  2. Incorrect: Madeup Airline Flight 123 is a regularly scheduled passenger flight from Somewhere to Somewhere Else. On such and such a day, the aircraft used on this flight failed/crashed/blew up/was hijacked.

The lead sentence of this page followed INCORRECT guidelines and needs to be updated to CORRECT guidelines. RogerYg (talk) 03:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Updated the lead sentence as per CORRECT guidelines. RogerYg (talk) 03:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Air India Flight 182 was a passenger flight operating on Montreal–London–Delhi–Bombay route that was bombed on 23 June 1985 en route from Montreal to London killing all 329 people aboard.
    We can discuus improvements here: should include main incident: bombing / bombed as per as per WP:AVINAME. Details of compression do not seem neccessary as per WP:AVINAME RogerYg (talk) 07:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Your version introduces grammar errors and duplicate information. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  10:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, as per Grammarly, there is no grammar errors; and you did'nt mention which error. Only "329 people" is duplicate, and important information is often duplicated from lead sentence, which is a summary of the main topic. Anyway, I am not reverting fully, only decompression bit which is undue detail as per WP:AVINAME. Will wait for others editors to give their inputs. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 04:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    1) You removed the word "the" from "...operating on the Montreal–London–Delhi–Bombay route, ...". 2) Your latest edits mischaracterized the incident entirely. Nothing on the plane exploded except for the bomb that was planted on it. There is absolutely nothing wrong or out of line with the current version as it is, and frankly it was fine before you started editing it since your edits have previously repeated information found in some cases only a few lines down[11]. The current version takes your concerns into account while still accurately depicting exactly what happened in as few words as possible. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  05:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    On Wikipedia we have to follow WP:RS as per the Sources
    As per BBC's exact quote below, the Air India Flight 182 EXPLODED.
    If you have a problem, please contact BBC, and ask them to update their article. Meanwhile, we have to follow WP:RS sources such as BBC.
    • On 23 June 1985, an Air India flight travelling from Canada to India via London, exploded off the Irish coast, killing all 329 people on board. Hrishikesh, Sharanya (September 27, 2023). "Air India flight 182: 1985 bombing back in news after Canada row". BBC. Retrieved October 8, 2023. On 23 June 1985, an Air India flight travelling from Canada to India via London, exploded off the Irish coast, killing all 329 people on board.</ref>
    Thanks RogerYg (talk) 09:36, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Further, "catastrophic decompression" is a technical detail of the explosion, which should not be in the lead sentence as per WP:AVINAME and WP:Readability. Please see the Correct Lead Sentence options on WP:AVINAME. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 10:16, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You have not demonstrated how your preferred version which omits this is "correct" per any policy. Only your repeated, evidence free assertions. Please stop restoring this version which is factually incorrect. Additionally, you are effectively replacing "catastrophic decompression" with a repetition of the number of casualties, despite that number, as I pointed out earlier, exists only a few lines further down in the lead section and uses up more words than "catastrophic decompression," so I genuinely don't understand your concerns. Please stop forcing through your edits which have editors opposed to them. That is not in line with WP:BRD. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:33, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It still stands that this is a relative factual error in that it was the bomb that exploded, not the plane. Something that I would say better fits the profile of the plane exploding is TWA Flight 800. Let me give an analogy for easier understanding: Suppose you have some chemicals in a flask that violently reacted and caused an explosion. Is it the flask that exploded?
    Also, CNN said that "In the early hours of June 23, 1985, a bomb planted in the cargo hold of Air India flight 182 traveling from Montreal to New Delhi exploded off the coast of Ireland, killing all 329 people on board.". National Post stated here that "On June 23, 1985, a Boeing 747 going from Toronto to London was approaching the coast of Ireland when a bomb placed in an unaccompanied checked bag exploded, plunging the plane into the Atlantic Ocean below." We have reliable sources saying that the bomb was the one that exploded, so it seems like we're going for the contrary. S5A-0043Talk 13:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I guess we can agree on National Post [12] language: "plunging the plane into the Atlantic Ocean" or crashed into Atlantic Ocean RogerYg (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess we have some consensus on this as there is Similar language in Washigton Post "Air-India Jet Carrying 329 Crashes Off Ireland". The Washington Post. 1985-06-24.
    You still have not demonstrated why the previous version violated any policy. This change is wholly unnecessary. From a factual standpoint "catastrophic decompression" is the only correct term. I do not understand your persistent crusade against this. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    None of the WP:RS sources mention "catastrophic decompression" in the lead sentence of AI 182 bombing artcles, and therefore there is no reason to include in on Wiki page lead sentence. It violates WP:RS, WP:Readability, WP:TALK, WP:BRD among many Wiki policies RogerYg (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Per S5A-0043, the majority of reliable sources correctly describe the incident. Cherry-picking an outlier would go against WP:UNDUE. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Washington Post , National Post & CNN all have this language of plunged / crashed. and it was mentioned by S5A-0043Talk This is not cherry picking RogerYg (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That was a reply to your comment from a week ago, when you tried to place UNDUE weight on the BBC source and then tried to force that change live, as you're again doing now. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:26, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    None of the WP:RS sources mention "catastrophic decompression" in the lead sentence of AI 182 bombing artcles, and therefore there is no reason to include in on Wiki page lead sentence. It violates WP:RS, WP:Readability, WP:TALK, WP:BRD among many Wiki policies RogerYg (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. Repeated re-additions of "the airplane exploded" which is a factual error is extremely inappropriate. @Kautilya3: it was the bomb that exploded. Stop reintroducing this factual error from an outlier source. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  00:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree with @Kautilya3:, who is right in citing from WP:RS sources which mention the plane exploded, due to the bomb.The cited sources, Washignton Post, BBC, National Post are in no way outliers. We need to follow WP:RS sources. WP:BLUESKY argument cannot be misused to push a certain language. WP:NOR does not allow editor assumptions over WP:RS. RogerYg (talk) 06:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, None of the WP:RS sources mention "catastrophic decompression" in the lead sentence of AI 182 bombing artcles, and therefore there is no reason to include it in on Wiki page lead sentence. It violates WP:AVINAME policy for lead sentence. Also, it violates WP:RS, WP:Readability, WP:TALK, WP:BRD Wiki policies RogerYg (talk) 06:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yesterday you wanted to say that the plane crashed, now you want to restore the factual error that the plane somehow exploded by itself despite a bomb being planted on it. You are also splicing comments to fit your arguments. I only said that the BBC, in this particular instance, is an outlier in that its language is that "the flight ... exploded... which is a factual error. You're also completely ignoring what S5A-0043 said now about what the other sources say, just because Kautilya3 started editing the article. You also continue to edit the article immediately after posting without giving anyone a chance to respond and oppose your proposals, which is disruptive. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Currently have Sikh terrorists. Replace with pro-Khalistan terrorists or Babbar Khalsa terrorists in first paragraph

Currently we have Sikh terrorist as per the sources. Some editors want to Replace with terrorist or pro-Khalistan terrorist in first paragraph. We need to discuss the same with reasons and WP:RS sources RogerYg (talk) 06:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Sikh as per previous editor, replaced by Babbar Khalsa since that appears most factual and neutral.
as per Neutral BBC source & also several Canadian Sources. Completed Canadian Investigation considers Talwinder Singh Parmar of Babbar Khalsa as the mastermind of the AI 182 blast, and most Western sources have accepted that finding, so that's good with WP:RS and WP:NPOV RogerYg (talk) 07:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is already explained further down in the lead section. Stop forcing theough these poor changes. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  10:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there is a strong argument that Wiki editors need to follow high-quality WP:RS sources, and may not censor perpetrator identity. Removing both Sikh and Babbar Khalsa seems to be an attempt to hide identity, and I think we need to include at least one qualifier for terrorists. Probably, as other editors have noted, we should follow the WP:RS high-quality sources RogerYg (talk) 15:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a question of reliable sources, it is a question of WEIGHT, and duplicated information in the lead is WP:UNDUE as well as makes the article clunkier to read. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Stormbird: There is an entire paragraph in the lead which outlines the perpetrators which states only one person was convicted. Your version places WP:UNDUE weight by once again duplicating information. Again, only a single person was convicted. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GhostOfDanGurney, WP:WEIGHT asks you to defer to sources. It is not an invitation for WP:OR. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How is removing duplicate information adding OR? lol ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  23:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think Kautilya3 (talk) has a strong argument about WP:WEIGHT and defering to sources WP:RS RogerYg (talk) 06:46, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That only one person was convicted for making a bomb doesn't mean other people were not involved in the bombing attack. The sources clearly mention "terrorists". There is no duplicate information. The mention of Khalistan/Babbar Khalsa merely adds additional information and there is no reason why the perpetrators, their group and their ideology should be removed from the upper part of the lead. The original lead in [this revision ] was perfect and well-sourced before someone removed its content without explanation. Stormbird (talk) 07:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, at least We need to mention "Babbar Khalsa" in the first paragraph, as the group claimed responsibility & was implicated. The entire first paragraph appears to be hiding their identity as also noted by @Stormbird:. Currently its in second paragraph. RogerYg (talk) 17:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, an entire paragraph dedicated to answering the question "who?" That is more than sufficient and is not an attempt to hide anything. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  23:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't any paragraph dedicated to answering who in the intro. And none of the information you removed is undue, as it has significant value from multiple reliable sources. Stormbird (talk) 08:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The citation [1] has been present in September before the current editing spree has started. It is a respectable scholarly source.[1] Here is what it says:

By the time of the Ressam plot, Canada already had a long history of political violence. Aside from domestic extremists such as the separatist Front de Libération du Quebec and the leftist Squamish Five, most major foreign terrorist groups operated in Canada, where they were engaged in fund raising, propaganda, recruitment, procurement, and collection of intelligence. Further, they generally tried to harness diaspora communities to support homeland causes, resulting in a "spillover effect" in which foreign conflicts were imported into Canada. Rarely but devastatingly, they engaged in mass-casualty violence, the most notorious example being the 1985 bombing of Air India Flight 182, which was outbound from Toronto. Canadian Sikh terrorists were responsible for the attack, which killed 329 and until 9/11 was the deadliest terrorist incident in modern history. More recently, Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers have conducted fund-raising, propaganda, and weapons procurement in Toronto and Montreal.'

GhostOfDanGurney has made half a dozen attempts to remove the mention of "Canadian Sikh", whereas it is mentioned at the forefront in pretty much all the sources mentioned here.People familiar with the episode clearly see this as a blatant attempt at whitewashing.

GhostOfDanGurney, this is your last warning. You are editing against Wikipedia policies, and against editor consensus. One more attempt, and you will be taken to WP:AE. You are welcome to discuss here, and make edits only after you obtain CONSENSUS. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of escalating this by threatening me with AE (which I am also well within my rights to start a report at given the behaviour of RogerYg in here, for forcing through edits without consensus), you could have responded to my post above, which was in reply to Stormbird in the first section of this talk page, where I reiterated my reasons for removal. Here it is:

I have already explained that removing the word "Canadian" (and frankly, "Sikh" as well for that matter) violates NPOV by placing WP:UNDUE weight on nationality and religion. An example of a more appropriately neutral article is American Airlines Flight 11, which states "...by five al-Qaeda terrorists... rather than "Saudi Muslim terrorists". With respect to WP:OTHERSTUFF, we need not include the organization here, as the second paragraph covers this adequately, and in line with WP:BLPCRIME.

You similarly have no consensus to edit in the phrase was a passenger flight operating on the Montreal–London–Delhi–Bombay route, that on 23 June 1985, exploded over the Atlantic Ocean. As I and another editor (who was at first listened to, then ignored by the three of you) have stated multiple times, this is a factual error which is only supported by a single source out of many. The version from before I started editing included the wording "catastrophic decompression" which is why I reverted to that wording. There is no consensus for any of the changes made by You, RogerYG or Stormbird since September 19th. I removed content and have explained why, and per WP:ONUS, consensus MUST be formed to re-include it, in the case of "Canadian Sikh" or introduced, in the case of the "exploded" wording, which has not been done despite the repeated assertions, often made in edit summaries while forcing through these changes minutes after a comment is made, with no time for actual discussion.
This misrepresentation of the situation by you, and your continued editing without consensus will also be used in any AE statement made by me. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  10:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3: I appreciate your edit here which went live the same moment I made the above reply. I still vehemently oppose the word "Canadian" in the lead sentence. There was never a consensus made for this inclusion on the talk page archive and I have outlined my reasons for removal above. Can you please respect WP:ONUS on this? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  10:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) You can be reported right now for violation of WP:3RR, which you seem to have crossed a long time ago. So, I suggest you chill for a while.
"Exploded" was used by BBC in a recent article, but I agree "disintegrated" is better, and I have reinstated it.
There is no principle either on Wikipedia or in scholarly sources that religion and terrorism should be delinked. We have a page called Religious terror, and another page was recently renamed to "Hindu terrorism" despite many people's objections. A page on Sikh terrorism does not exist yet, merely because nobody got around to writing it. But I can assure you it is a huge subject, next only to Islamic terrorism. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue that I was in line with WP:3RRNO as I was removing a factual error from the lead sentence of an article, but regardless, I reiterate my appreciation for your changing it. May I propose a compromise?
...disintegrated over the Atlantic Ocean as a result of an explosion from a bomb planted by Babbar Khalsa terrorists.
This proposal fully satisfies my concerns about undue weight on nationality and religion. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  10:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Bell, Stewart (2014). "Leadership and the Toronto 18". In Bruce Hoffman; Fernando Reinares (eds.). The Evolution of the Global Terrorist Threat: From 9/11 to Osama bin Laden's Death. New York: Columbia University Press. p. 144. ISBN 978-0-231-16898-4.
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