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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ghostlystatic (talk | contribs) at 01:37, 24 October 2023 (→2023 - Operation Al-Aqsa Flood: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


2023 - Operation Al-Aqsa Flood

The Operation Al-Aqsa Flood has been added to the selected list by @Ghostlystatic and @DVDsilber. I suggest removing it since it is not a pogrom (violent riot) but a terror attack realised by the Hamas militia. Woodybz (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It is highly inflamatory to consider a terrorist attack by a subjegated people as a pogrom, especially if we're not listing all of the pogroms that Israelis commit against Palestinians. MfVicendese (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then, in addition to remove the terror attack of the 7th October, I suggest to add the pogrom perpetrated by Israeli extremist settlers in Huwara on the 26th of February. Fichs, the head of the IDF Central Command, define the settlers action as a pogrom. [1]https://www.timesofisrael.com/settler-extremists-sowing-terror-huwara-riot-was-a-pogrom-top-general-says/ Woodybz (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are hilariously biased. You are also not a Jew. Pogroms happen to Jews. I am a Jew. I know what a pogrom is. If you remove it, I will restore it, and I will call you an antisemite if you do. Ghostlystatic (talk) 17:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, that was a pogrom. It meets the definition of a pogrom. If you remove it, I will restore it. :-) I view removing it as an act of antisemitism by you. Ghostlystatic (talk) 17:47, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason that this is being brought up by you is to annoy Jewish people. That's it. You're not here to build an encyclopedia. Ghostlystatic (talk) 18:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise if I wrote something that might hurt you. The discussion on Pogrom is mainly from an encyclopedia point of view.
A pogrom is a violent riot. A riot is a form of civil disorder.
I don't see how the terror attack of an "organised" militia can be considered a civil disorder.
It would be more helpful if you could argue the discussion.
Moreover, you reported 1300+ Jews killed in the attack. The source did not mentioned the religion of the deaths. It would be more appropriate to replace "Jews" with "Israelies" since Arabs Israeli citizien were killed as well. [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/arab-israeli-hamas-attacks.html Woodybz (talk) 19:19, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They are Israelis, not "Israelies". Can't even spell it right.
I know quite well what an encyclopedia is. This was clearly a pogrom. If you can not understand that, that's not my problem. I will not step down from this. Ghostlystatic (talk) 19:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please, I am not here to escalate the discussion. I would appreciate it if you show some respect.
Do you mind explaining why the Hamas attack should be considered a pogrom?
The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is the military wing of the Hamas organisation. Their actions can not be considered a civil disorder. Thus, the attack should not be considered as a pogrom.
Otherwise, we should change the definition of pogrom. Woodybz (talk) 19:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From the first sentences of the article:
A pogrom is a violent riot incited with the aim of massacring or expelling an ethnic or religious group, particularly Jews. The term entered the English language from Russian to describe 19th- and 20th-century attacks on Jews in the Russian Empire (mostly within the Pale of Settlement). Similar attacks against Jews which also occurred at other times and places became known retrospectively as pogroms. Sometimes the word is used to describe publicly sanctioned purgative attacks against non-Jewish groups. The characteristics of a pogrom vary widely, depending on the specific incident, at times leading to, or culminating in, massacres.
Read the first sentence over again. 10/07 was a genocidal massacre against Jews. If you don't believe me look at the article for the war. I stand by what I said. Ghostlystatic (talk) 19:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I read it. A pogrom is a violent riot.
A riot is a civil disorder.
Please, could you explain how you can consider the organised terror attack of Hamas as a civil disorder?
I will agree to keep it on the list if you can explain it. Otherwise, it should not be considered a Pogrom.
It is a linear lessical logic. It is not a POV.
Moreover, according to the article you mentioned, the attack was against Israelis. It is not mentioned that it was against only Jews. Woodybz (talk) 20:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is semantics and pedantry. It was against the Jews, as per the Hamas charter. All of this is pedantry and chicanery. Ghostlystatic (talk) 20:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the definitions are important, especially in an encyclopedia.
I suggest providing a semantic argumentation; otherwise, I don't see any reason to keep the Hamas attack against Israel and its citizens in the list of Pogrom. Woodybz (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how else you can describe what they did as anything else than lawless, and thus a riot.
You are not listening to plain language argumentation.
As I said your position represents only pedantry, and I sense an axe to grind against the Jews. Ghostlystatic (talk) 23:37, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most pogroms such as Odessa pogrom or Kishinev pogrom weren't really so much riots as they were attacks of violent Cossacks who were basically a standing army of the Russian tsar, but roaming armed vigilantes, on, you know, horseback. It's hard to compare. The important question is. Do we have a majority of RS calling this attack a pogrom? So far, attack is the most common term. Andre🚐 01:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


  • What I think should be changed (that 10/07 was a pogrom against Jewish people):
  • 10/07 was a pogrom against Jewish people.:
  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):
[1] [2][3][4] [5][6][7][8][9][10]

Ghostlystatic (talk) 01:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a start, I'm going to hold off for now. There are a few sources in here that are either opinion pieces, or qualified minimal mentions. Also, I assume 10 people would revert it if I inserted this now. However, in the future, when more authoritative, academic sources says they consider it a pogrom, it'll show up and it'll get (disputed) tacked on there, maybe, who knows? Andre🚐 01:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay thank you at least for being reasonable, unlike the other guy. I will stop editing about this thing but I would like to keep this on here. I'm not the only one who has this opinion and I'm not the only one who would be offended some of the pedantry of certain editors of this platform. Ghostlystatic (talk) 01:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-rishi-sunak-calls-hamas-attacks-pogrom-confirms-10-brits-killed-israel/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20should%20call%20it%20by,for%20violent%20attacks%20targeting%20Jews.
  2. ^ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-death-toll-from-hamas-shock-onslaught-reaches-1300/
  3. ^ https://www.jta.org/2023/10/08/israel/was-hamas-attack-the-bloodiest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust
  4. ^ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/it-was-a-pogrom-beeri-survivors-horrific-attack-hamas-terrorists
  5. ^ https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-pogroms-holocaust-kibbutz-troen/index.html
  6. ^ https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/10/12/hamass-attack-was-the-bloodiest-in-israels-history
  7. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/opinion/hamas-israel-jews-massacre.html
  8. ^ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/10/a-21st-century-pogrom/
  9. ^ https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/all/the-hamas-pogrom-is-the-result-of-the-wests-refusal-to-accept-the-idea-of-evil-2HXpjrqVX2QVwC0q3WnTmO
  10. ^ https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/news/20231011-few-words-disaster-israel
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