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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Yupik (talk | contribs) at 12:03, 26 October 2023 (→The Sámi film section is a mess: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Were germanic people in scandinavia before the Sami?

Were germanic people in scandinavia before the Sami? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.40.211.17 (talk) 05:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's no account of either group specifically, since they were largely non literate. As a result it's difficult to tell who was there first Mr anonymous username (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Germanic peoples did not inhabit that area before the Sámi did, no. Sámi share most of their lineage with Eastern Hunter-Gatherers, much more than Germanic peoples do (who share more with Western Hunter-Gatherers and yamnaya culture peoples). Sami still have some western HG in them, as do Germanic peoples have some eastern HG, but this suggests that the two ethnicities haven't been in very close proximity for very long.
From what we can tell, the eastern HG's came to the south of Scandinavia through Norway's coasts during the last glacial era, and the western HG's came from the south, meeting in the south of what's now Sweden/Norway, being joined much later by the yamnaya peoples (who, by the way, are where the old Norse mythology seems to come from).
So no, the yamnaya peoples are the closest to what most people mean by Germanic peoples (between the three, with up to 60% of DNA and even more of the culture being from yamnaya heritage), and they came from the south. I recommend looking up maps on Indo-European languages and their spread through Europe for more info, since Norse heritage can be pretty much cut and pasted on to something like that, at least for a leyperson
Such myths come from those wishing to claim ancestral heritage from the north of Scandinavia, largely suggesting without any regard to evidence to the contrary, that the Norse peoples were from somewhere other than everyone else, as in not from Africa, but from space or something I don't know (sometimes they do suggest space). Unfortunately, it's an attempt at claiming that there's a separation in genetics so strong that there's a clear better and worse form of human, and you shouldn't trust such tales without knowing anything about the decades of research that has gone into creating the theories that we have today. Keep that in mind next time you hear about Norse people being somehow better than others, or descending from greater civilisations. 123.3.246.218 (talk) 13:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Karin Bojs writes in the article "Fjärde vågen bidrog till finnar och samer" ("The fourth wave contributed to Finns and Sámi") in the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter (2018):

In recent years, DNA research has shown how Europe has been populated in three waves. The first wave consisted of the Stone Age hunters, who started arriving already 43,000 years ago. The second wave was the Stone Age farmers, who started about 8,000 years ago. The third wave started about 4,500 years ago from the steppes of present-day Russia, and brought with it the basis of the Indo-European languages.

Each new wave was superimposed on the previous one. Therefore, all Europeans carry a mixture of different origins.

The three waves are of course a simplification, but a simplification that gets you very far in most of Europe. However, to describe the origin of today's Finns and Sámi, they are not enough. Then a fourth wave is required. A wave that came from Siberia.

(Translated using Google Translate.)

In her book Min europeiska familj Bojs writes about how today's Norwegians are the genetic descendents of the original inhabitants of Norway. 46.230.131.38 (talk) 07:25, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Errors

There might be errors in this article concerning the origins of the Saami. See Alessandro et al. (2005): «Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link” American Journal of Human genetics, 76:883–886. Jeroen et al. (2011): «A genome-wide analysis of population structure in the Finnish Saami with implications for genetic association studies” European Journal of Human Genetics, 19, 347–352. Lahermo et al. (1996): «The Genetic Relationship between the Finns and the Finnish Saami (Lapps): Analysis of Nuclear DNA and mtDNA” American Journal of Human Genetics 58:1309-1322. Sahnovic M "Lapps" and "Lapp" objects in northern and western Karelia, Recent perspectives on Sami archaeology 17 Sumkin VJ (1990) On the ethnogenesis of the Saami: an archaeological view. Acta Borealia Tambets et.al. (2004): “The Western and the Eastern Roots of the Saami - The Story of Genetic “Outliers” Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes”. American Journal of Human Genetics, 74: 661-682. Aina007Piano (talk) 11:53, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You have some citations here, but I have no idea what your point is. What are you suggesting? If you have some solid facts from your sources, why not add them in?
I myself was curious why the Saami immigrated into the area. Were they driven out be cultural expansion of others from the south? It seems they came long after the ice receded.
Billyshiverstick (talk) 00:39, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, pointing out that there might be errors and then dumping sources without context is rather vague. TylerBurden (talk) 15:46, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2023

PLEASE LET ME EDIT IT 98.3.103.238 (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made to the article. FatalFit | ✉ | ✓  12:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary issues - Claims not supported by the referenced source.

A sentence in that paragraph claims that language and culture loss caused by generations of Sámi children being taken to missionary and/or state-run boarding schools and the legacy of laws that were created to deny the Sámi rights (e.g., to their beliefs, language, land and to the practice of traditional livelihoods). but the source reference can no longer be retrieved in its entirety. The same document retrieved from a different sources, https://thenorthernreview.ca/index.php/nr/article/view/9, makes no mention of Sámi children being taken to missionary or state-run boarding schools. Nor does mention any legislation in either Sweden, Norway, or Finland that denied them their right to speak their own language, exercise their beliefs, or practicing traditional livelihood. The sentence should be removed. HaraldTheBlue (talk) 10:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not particularly hard to find sources for that information, even without trying. Here's a whole article about it on the Norwegian side of the border. The King of Norway even acknowledged it happened and apologized for it way back in 1997. Sweden admits it happened. There are even truth and reconciliation commissions in Norway and Finland because of it. So no, it shouldn't be taken out. - Yupik (talk) 13:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 October 2023

Sámi → Sámi peoples – When a group of peoples and the languages they speak have the same name, it is convention to use "name peoples" and "name languages". Here are a few of many examples:

  1. "Germanic peoples" and "Germanic languages"
  2. "Austronesian peoples" and "Austronesian languages"
  3. "Mongolic peoples" and "Mongolic languages"

Move per WP:CONSISTENT. – Treetoes023 (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom and WP:PRECISE. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Sámi film section is a mess

Many of the "Sámi" films on this list are made by non-Sámi and have little to nothing to do with the actual Sámi. Either the films should be split up into a section for Sámi films by the Sámi and Films made by non-Sámi or the films by outsiders should be removed since most of them just show some kind of made-up Sámi world á la the tourist industry. - Yupik (talk) 13:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If they have nothing to do with the Sámi they should be removed, the rest seems unnecessary as the section isn't named "films by the Sámi", but is rather evidently about the Sámi in films in general. I don't see the need to split this between the Sámi and "outsiders". TylerBurden (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No one would call Memoirs of a Geisha a Japanese film because it is not made by or for the Japanese. It is a movie made by an outsider, which is why it is categorized in Category:Japan in non-Japanese culture. Some of these have also been classified under Category:Orientalism. The "Sámi" films belong in similar categories, their articles need to make it extremely clear that they are not Sámi films, and they need to be removed from the list in this article. - Yupik (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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