Talk:Freedom of Russia Legion

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Freedom of Russia Legion article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Russia Low‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Ukraine Low‑importance

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: European / Russian & Soviet / Post-Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	European military history task force
	Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

On 11 April 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from "Freedom of Russia" Legion to Freedom of Russia Legion. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 11 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Tol (talk | contribs) @ 20:01, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Freedom of Russia" Legion → Freedom of Russia Legion – I think the quotation marks should be removed. Super Ψ Dro 14:28, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. According to WP:TSC, the use of quotation marks in titles should be avoided, and they don't seem absolutely necessary here. — Ætoms ^[talk] 18:57, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. This use of quotes is a very European thing that is not intuitive or common English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:32, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a direct borrowing from Russian Легион «Свобода России» where the quotation marks are normal editorial practice, but in English they are not. A translation should follow English-language conventions. —Michael Z. 23:31, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Nice work.

North8000 (talk) 02:08, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. echidnaLives - talk - edits 06:55, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Freedom of Russia Legion → Liberty of Russia Legion – Official sources of the legion translate the name into English as "Liberty of Russia Legion" See ^[1].

References

^ https://twitter.com/legion_svoboda/status/1591482729287544833

Limonizia (talk) 17:11, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While the official name uses "liberty", we don't always go with the WP:OFFICIALNAME when the name used in English-language reliable sources is different. How is this covered in English-language reliable sources, and by what name is it typically referred? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. No valid rationale. I have set up a redirect from the official name and from another alternate name from the article lead but IMO that is enough. (If this move were to go ahead the redir is easily overwritten). Andrewa (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. Common name appears to be the present one. — Amakuru (talk) 12:30, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Do they officially belong to Ukrainian army?

While some of them were trained by Ukrainian instructors and helped by Ukrainian authorities [1], I did not find any recent sources (preferably some official info by Ukrainian government) saying they belong to Ukrainian Armed Forces and to which part of these forces. They are frequently described merely as "a Ukraine-based Russian militia" [2]. So, perhaps they should be described as such, i.e. as irregular Russian forces supported by the Ukrainian state? My very best wishes (talk) 20:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[3] - yes, thank you, that answers my question. My very best wishes (talk) 22:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Ukraine passed a law in August allowing Russian citizens to join the Free Russian Legion as part of the International Legion. They are legally Ukrainian soldiers. The fact we might all grin at Ukraine now that they're denying it doesn't change the legal facts. Whoever deleted the part about them being part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is being dishonest and spreading propaganda instead of sticking to objective truth. Dantai Amakiir (talk) 23:57, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"They are legally Ukrainian soldiers." Yes, if someone (this applies to an individual) signed the official contract with the Ukrainian state, and Ukrainian army says "he is our soldier". However, based on statements by Ukrainian officials, this is not the case for this detachment, meaning they are not an official part of Ukrainian army. My very best wishes (talk) 15:33, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So, this makes them not a part of Ukrainian forces, at least during operations in Russia. If they are captured, they are not POWs, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Involved in the Belgorod attack

This should be noted. 2A02:3030:809:C0BF:1:0:1CFA:FC04 (talk) 21:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is an entire section about it... TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 15:57, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is probably incorrect to call this unit a Russian paramilitary group.

This group is based in Ukraine and so would more correctly be called a Ukrainian paramilitary group. Liger404 (talk) 07:56, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is composed of Russian citizens, however. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 15:57, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is disputed actually. We don't know that. We don't know the nationality or names of any of the members of this group. The one member we do know lives in Kiev. But as I have pointed out in other discussions, the US members of the foreign legion does not make them a US paramilitary group. They are part of the Ukrainian army. As you can see the page has already been fixed. From the NYT "The Free Russian Legion operates under the umbrella of Ukraine’s International Legion, a fighting force that includes units made up of American and British volunteers, as well as Belarusians, Georgians and others. It is overseen by Ukraine’s Armed Forces and commanded by Ukrainian officers.". https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/world/europe/free-russia-legion-ukraine.html Liger404 (talk) 02:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Commander (incorrect info)

Current version defines Tsezar as a commander of the unit. However, most references define him merely as a spokesperson. One of cited refs in the infobox [4] defines him as just a member of the group and a spokesperson. Another ref [5] calls him (probably by mistake) "a self-proclaimed commander", which is not the same as commander, and a media spokesperson for the group. The Ukrainian version of this page provides "secret" for commander in the infobox, Russian version provides nothing. Apparently, if the detachment is a part of Ukrainian International Legion, the commander is appointed by Ukrainians (nothing "self-proclaimed"), and this is not Tzezar. My very best wishes (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Group's claims - recent edits

I removed the statement that the group's "estimated size is several hundred to 1,000 soldiers" in this edit; my rationale was: "insufficient sourcing to make this claim in wiki voice"

The source states:

One of the legion’s most closely guarded secrets is its size, with estimates placing it anywhere from several hundred to over 1,000 soldiers. Ukrainian Presidential Adviser Oleksiy Arestovych said in June that the group had a “few hundred” members. But the legion claimed last month it consisted of two “fully manned battalions,” which could potentially mean more than 1,000 fighters. Source.

Arestovych is not a reliable source to begin with, while "...could potentially..." does not translate into a reliable estimate. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further reductions of poorly sourced claims; see diff. The second source, Berliner Zeitung, mostly details the group's self-promotional efforts and cites the same Arestovich, who does not appear to be sure of his claims, i.e.: Alexey Arestovich, one of the most important advisors to the Ukrainian presidential office, suggests that the arsonists and saboteurs could be Russians.; "These are very serious people," not amateurs, Arestovich said.; etc. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In general, the article seems a bit uncritical in re: group's various claims, extensively citing them. Some analysts, such as the Conflict Intelligence Team, in fact doubt the group's existence as an independent military formation; see this report from Radio Liberty. See also The Telegraph: "The ‘TikTok’ soldiers who may have invaded Russia's Belgorod region for ‘likes’. One is a failed actor, one was in a metal band but they all have a Russian far-Right history and are well known on social media. The latter source covers both groups involved in the recent incursions, the "Liberty Legion" and the "Russian Volunteer Corps". -- K.e.coffman (talk) 20:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Self-Presentation and the Reality

The members of that military volunteer unit are no Russian Nationalists because they are fighting on the side of a corrupt Regime, which discriminates ethnic Russians and Russian-speaking People, suppresses Russian Culture, defines Russia as the main enemy of Ukraine and is allied with the USA, which is considered by Russian Nationalists as the main enemy of Russia. Russian Nationalists dont necessarily like Putin but as a general rule they doubt the point of view of the so-called Liberal Opposition in Russia that Russia is a dictorial state and they reject the Atlanticist Narrative on the war in Ukraine (illegal Aggression war). Its likely that the defectors are Ukrainian Ultra-Nationalists, Turkic Neofascists and North Caucasian Islamists or Russian "Liberals" who pretending to be Russian Nationalists.--92.211.154.66 (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://twitter.com/legion_svoboda/status/1591482729287544833

[1]