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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beit Rima massacre

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This is the current revision of this page, as edited by The Wordsmith (talk | contribs) at 04:41, 22 December 2023 (Beit Rima massacre: Closed as no consensus (XFDcloser)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version.

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Merge !votes clearly outnumber Keep. As this is not a vote, the arguments must be weighted according to their strength. Keep supporters presented a number of additional sources, as well as analysis of them. They demonstrated that the article does meet WP:GNG, which was not refuted by the Merge !votes.

Merge supporters had a number of !votes that were WP:PERX with no actual arguments. A few were even "Per X", where X was just "per Y". Some other !votes had invalid rationales, including one that incorrectly claimed there were no secondary sources. Generally, merge supporters did not adequately address the sources presented or analyzed in the discussion. However, they did make a compelling argument that the article failed WP:EVENT. This was partially addressed by Keep supporters, but not fully refuted.

As far as weighing the strength of arguments, on one hand the article passes GNG. WP:EVENT gives additional tests on top of GNG, so it must meet both. As the author of WP:EVENT, I think it probably does barely pass but the arguments that it may fail on lasting effect and persistence of coverage are compelling and were not refuted.

This AFD has been open for nearly a month, though there were issues due to the malformed listing. Another relist seems unlikely to make a consensus materialize. The best way forward is to incorporate the new sources into the article, and a future AFD (if necessary) can determine whether it meets WP:EVENT.

Disclaimer: I had my whole rationale typed up but XFDcloser ate it, so my rewrite might not be as polished. The WordsmithTalk to me 04:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Beit Rima massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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The article fails notability per WP:NOTNEWS (three sources date for the day of the event or the day after), as well as being grossly miscategorized - categories mark it as 1991 while 4 news sources say October 2001. One sentence mention in the Second Intifada article could be sufficient.GreyShark (dibra) 09:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: It is extremely unlikely that the nominator performed an adequate WP: BEFORE, since this event is a long-term case study used in sources such as this 2014 Springer-published journal on psychological warfare: "The first major use of this theme came after an IDF raid on the village of Beit Rima north of Jerusalem in October 2001...", in this Brill source, in this 2003 report by HaMoked, etc. The WP:NOTNEWS claim is wholly untenable. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep this article of a highly controversial raid conducted in response to a major political assassination. In addition to the references already present in the article and those found by Nableezy and Iskandar, a simple search turns up multiple sources (ProQuest 319333583, ProQuest 319337465, ProQuest 425349073 ProQuest 413926692). I'm not sure about massacre being the correct title though, since raid and incursion are also mentioned in these sources, but this is already being discussed on the talk page. Havradim leaf a message 13:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Justanotherguy54 (talk) 19:04, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The merger votes being provided here are thin on policy. For starters, the proposed merger target already has 74kB of readable prose, so per WP:TOOBIG is itself a candidate for trimming/splitting, not expansion. On top of this, not a single WP:MERGEREASON has been provided. There were some early merge votes that cast doubt on notability, and subsequent merge votes seem to have merely echoed that despite ample additional sourcing being provided. The latter in turn raises another point: that of the clear WP:NOTMERGE argument that is available based on the additional sourcing - that the material has plenty of room to grow as a standalone topic. So: no particular reason to merge + good reason not to merge. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Am I missing something? This seems to clearly pass GNG and the reports after the attack show a strong case for WP:LASTING. I don't think a merge is a good solution, this is not significant enough as an event in itself for a section in the proposed target, but it does have sources for content and meets GNG so a link in the proposed target to this article seems like the best way to present the material SUMMARYSTYLE.
Source eval from article:
Comments Source
A full article from the Washington Post, clearly WP:IS, WP:RS, article unquestionably has WP:SIGCOV (16 full properly written paragraphs) 1. Hockstader, Lee; Williams, Daniel (25 October 2001). "Israelis Kill 6 in Raid on Village". Washington Post.
I have doubts about the NPOV of this source, but it is an WP:IS with WP:SIGCOV, it also is years after the event, showing LASTING. Defending Human rights in Palestine since 1979.
A full article from the Guardian, clearly WP:IS, WP:RS, article unquestionably has WP:SIGCOV (19 full properly written paragraphs) 3. ^ Jump up to:a b c d Goldenberg, Suzanne (October 25, 2001). "Israel defies US with bloody raid for killers". The Guardian.
A full article from the New York Times, clearly WP:IS, WP:RS, article unquestionably has WP:SIGCOV (30 full properly written paragraphs) 4. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g h Bennet, James (October 26, 2001). "Israeli Raid Made Village a War Zone". The New York Times – via NYTimes.com.
Didn't bother to look due to the above sources, but this is a RS. 5. ^ Jump up to:a b c Human Rights Watch. Israel, the Occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Authority Territories. 14:2. April 2002. pp. 9-10.
A full article from the New York Times, same author as above but they are different articles (they contain much of the same info), clearly WP:IS, WP:RS, article unquestionably has WP:SIGCOV (28 full properly written paragraphs), the information that is in this article that is not in #4 above would be considered SIGCOV on its own. 6. ^ Bennet, James (October 25, 2001). "Israelis Storm Village in the West Bank". The New York Times – via NYTimes.com.
  • Because of the above, I just gave a cursory look at the sources Nableezy presented and they also seem to be WP:IS WP:RS with WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth even if there are some NPOV questions. The report seems to show LASTING.
  • We all know NOTNEWS is interpreted and applied very subjectively, editors often disagree in gf, In this case I think the event rises above routine news.
  • I didn't do a BEFORE because this seems to be a keep based on the above.
  • I do agree the article should have a better name, the massacre was part of a larger event. I would suggest something along the lines of 2001 raid on Beit Rima, not wedded to any particular phrase, but to meet WP:PRECISE this should be named differently.
Again if I'm missing something, ping me.  // Timothy :: talk  06:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. Although this AFD was opened in November, apparently, it wasn't added to the daily AFD log page so this is the first relisting. Right now, opinion is divided. I'd like to see those advocating Merge respond to the source evaluation and latest arguments in this discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:58, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per @TimothyBlue Homerethegreat (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Upon second revision, perhaps it is actually due and better to merge and therefore I change my vote to merge per arguments above. Homerethegreat (talk) 08:49, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.