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@PadFoot2008: despite the fact that some important official decrees in the 16th century (like the 1555 Augsburg interim) used the title "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation", it is controversial if this became ever the official title of the Empire. To cite Peter Wilson in "Heart of Europe" (2016), p. 255: "Much has been made of the addition of the words ‘of the German Nation’ to the title ‘Holy Roman Empire’. Appearing in 1474, this combination was used more frequently after 1512 without becoming the Empire’s official title – despite numerous later claims to the contrary. Protestants were far more likely than Catholics to add ‘of the German Nation’ when discussing the Empire, but even their use was inconsistent. Only one in nine official documents issued after 1560 included any reference to Germany, usually referring simply to ‘the Empire’."
If most official documents after 1560 did not use the addition "of the German Nation" you cannot argue that it "stayed that till its dissolution" The quote that you added also simply says "reflected in the official name used in the 16th century". So we both agree that it was used in official documents, predominantly in the 16th century. But I doubt one can argue that it served as a replacement until the end of the Empire in 1806.
Lead and infobox of the article have also to reflect the body of the article where it is mentioned that "By the end of the 18th century, the term "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" fell out of official use. Contradicting the traditional view concerning that designation, Hermann Weisert has argued in a study on imperial titulature that, despite the claims of many textbooks, the name "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" never had an official status and points out that documents were thirty times as likely to omit the national suffix as include it."--Palastwache (talk) 18:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wasn't a decree issued adding the suffix? Was a decree ever issued removing the suffix? Most, probably all Indian official documents never refer to "Republic of India", but it still called the official name, being probably only used in the passport. All official names are like that. Most official documents never refer to it. If you'd like, we could add the both names but without mentioning the timespan (except for "after 1512" in case of the second name). PadFoot2008 (talk) 02:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why is "also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation after 1512" in the first line insufficient? Srnec (talk) 04:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The current text of the article suggest that the name was changed by decree - it was not. That's not what the given source (footnote 43: Wilson, 1999 - the same Wilson I cited above) and other literature say (e. g. an extensive study from 1910 at Wikisource, unfortunately in German). "Of the German Nation" was an addendum first used in the 15th century that established itself after it was prominently used in the "Reichsabschied" that ended the Imperial Diet of 1512 and documented its decisions.
The Abschied/Recess of 1512 did not declare "this is the new name", it just used it as a long form. This name form seemed quite popular in the early 16th century when the Habsburgs tried to strengthen the German core of the Empire (see "Imperial Reform") but fell already out of use at the end of the century. Later on, it was sometimes used by scholars discussing the nature of the Empire. Of which Samuel Pufendorf in 1667 and Johann Jacob Moser in 1766 sayed that it would be common in Germany to call the Empire "of the German nation" more like a colloquialism than an official title. Imperial institutions did almost never use the title "of the German Nation" since the second half of the 16th century. Which in my opinion does not qualify the title to be named as "the official title since 1512" in infobox and lead.
The first paragraph of the article could still be complemented that "in the 16th century, it was also officially called the HRE of the German Nation". But in my opinion, it's unprecise and oversimplified to write "since 1512", for the reasons listed above.--Palastwache (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Citing Brian A. Pavlac and Elizabeth S. Lott in The Holy Roman Empire: A Historical Encyclopedia:
Over time, imperial control was lost over many of these areas, reflected in the official name used in the 16th century: the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. While it is sometimes inaccurate or anachronistic to use the term "Holy Roman Empire" for the succession of political constructs from 800 to 1806, it is certainly more convenient. The same inaccuracy and anachronism likewise applies to the titles of the rulers
The source clearly mentions it to be the official name of the entity. HRE is nothing but an anachronism and WP:COMMONNAME of this entity.
Let's also cite Bodie A. Ashton from The Kingdom of Württemberg and the Making of Germany:
It offered a loose, overarching political framework, some form of directed foreign policy, variable forms of taxation and a centrally mandated federal legal system that was (sometimes) adhered to by the constituent states. Its official name - the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation - belied the fact that it was not a nation in any recognized sense of the word. Instead, the Empire was divided into 'districts' (Kreise), a ponderous regional system in which various neighbouring autonomous provinces were banded under a local administration, which was then answerable to the Empire as a whole.
Let's also cite Jasper Cornelis van Putten from Networked Nation: Mapping German Cities in Sebastian Münster’s 'Cosmographia' which in turn cites Joachim Whaley from Maximilian I to the Peace of Westphalia 1499-1648, vol. 1 of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire(Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012), 17:
While subsequent emperors expanded its territory, the German lands therefore remained the empire's heartland. This was formally acknowledged in 1512 when the empire changed its official name to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation). ³³
These sources must have made it clear that Holy Roman Empire of the German Nationwas adopted as the official name of the entity in 1512. PadFoot2008 (talk) 08:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the fruitful discussion. But unfortunately I must still insist that this is highly interpretative. The fact is that the recess ("Reichsabschied") that formally ended the Reichstag of 1512 was the first official document of an Imperial institution to use the name form "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation". You see the small difference that it was not declared as the name but only used as a name form? (Van Putten is a bit unprecise in citing Whaley, who writes "in 1474 the Reich was first referred to in a document as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, and this nomenclature was formally established in 1512." - Is the establishment of a nomenclature the same as the establishment of an official title or even the official title that replaced all others? You may assess it so but this might be subject to interpretation.)
Some historians (like Pavlac & Lott, or Ashton whose book is about the 19th century Württemberg and therefore only marginally relevant to this topic) interpret it as a new official title, others like Peter Wilson, Karl Zeumer or Hermann Weisert questions it (Wilson explicitly states "without becoming the Empire’s official title", Weisert - to cite the article - "has argued in a study on imperial titulature that, despite the claims of many textbooks, the name "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" never had an official status and points out that documents were thirty times as likely to omit the national suffix as include it").
But even the sources who name it as an official title limit its function to the 16th century. Was it still the official title after it was abandoned by the Imperial institutions at the end of the same century? It would be a bit anachronistic to call the Empire of 1790 "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" if the name had fallen out of official use for 200 years. In case of anachronism - what Pavlac & Lott mean is that we refer to the political entities established in 800 and 962 as "Holy Roman Empire" despite they were still named "Regnum Francorum" (Francia or more precisely East Francia) back then, the name "Sacrum Romanum Imperium" (for Holy Roman Empire) was first documented in 1184 and the prevalent title since 1254. Again, this title was not decreed, it gradually evolved in political practice. Palastwache (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But some sources do cite as the official name, right? Official names can mean a variety of different things depending on the particular period. It didn't mean the same thing as it means now. To prevent anachronism, we could do it without citing the timespan of the names. The lead could stay as it is. I just want the name "Holy Roman Empire of teg German Nation" to be in the infobox too, as many sources cite it to be the Reich's official name, nothing else. PadFoot2008 (talk) 07:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I personally see no problem in listing it as an alternative name in the infobox (without a too specific date). But I'm not sure if this is the common practice. Palastwache (talk) 10:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello editor @Johnbod, thanks for participating in this discussion. I agree that infoboxes should be kept short but not by removing crucial information such as the official name itself. If it was something else like the above thirty currencies or the member states, it would've been fine to remove them but not the official name. I think the HRE infobox isn't that long that it could cause problems. The official name is pretty important. PadFoot2008 (talk) 07:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is also true for the region around Marburg (including the town itself), which became Calvinist in December 1606 and remained so until Ludwig V's case against this was enforced by Tilly in the spring of 1624. I don't understand why that part of Hesse-Kassel is not labelled Calvinist, like the rest of that territory. Compare the shaded red region in the left map here. Renerpho (talk) 06:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have temporarily removed the map,[2] to allow for the inaccuracies to be fixed, and (if found necessary) to check whether there are additional errors beyond the ones I had mentioned in my original post six weeks ago. Renerpho (talk) 02:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it reduces empty white space by generating 3 columns on my screen. the references then compact to 8 pages rather than 9. how many columns does it render on yours, 4? you have to get the balance of not having too few columns with lots of white space, or having too many columns that are too narrow, scrunched. there's hopefully a width, between 22 and 30 that works for both of our screens, most screens. i've moved it up to 27em, Tom B (talk) 09:38, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Reflist#Columns: "30em: Where there are many footnotes plus a page-width Bibliography subsection....20em: Where Shortened footnotes are used". Both is true here and in a lot of developed articles, so it should be between 20em and 30em, Tom B (talk) 09:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The redirect Empire of the germans has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 12 § Empire of the germans until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
