Islamic views on slavery is currently a good article nominee. Nominated by an unspecified nominator at 2007-03-30
Please use the |page= parameter to specify the number of the next free GAN review page, or use {{subst:GAN}} instead to find the next free page automatically.
This article is not categorized by subtopic. Please edit the |subtopic= parameter on this talk page to include one. For a list of subtopics, please see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
This article was nominated for deletion on 121105.
The result of the discussion was no consensus.
An archived record of this discussion can be found here.
the opinions of Gordon are appreciated, but can we a) cut down the massive quoting (such extensive quoting without substantial explanatory text may constitute a copyvio) and represent his main points in a few sentences of prose; b) make clear that it is Gordon's opinion (which is not quite what the text currently does, "Gordon notes... " assumes the factuality of his conclusions) especially as this is more interpretive than descriptive. ITAQALLAH13:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What's with the heading 'Islamist' opinion? Have we used the word Islamist correctly? Ie, look at Islamism. Furthermore, is there a particular reason the article mentions Islamist opinion? And are each of the people mentioned there actually Islamists? Or are some of them 'just' Muslims? Should there not be an explanatory sentence or two introducing the section and giving cohesion, or is it just another lawyer's list? Maybe it's OK, but I think it should be at least questioned. --Merbabu14:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"legal disabilities and dispensations" trimming and overhaul
i found that Levy had not really been represented appropriately, and that the current bullet-point format wasn't very encyclopedic or neutral, so i decided to do a rewrite. there's some material which i did not include, namely the material about marriage/concubinage (as we already have a section where this material can be inserted if it's not already there). i also removed the information about killing in talio, for free men are also killed in talio also for killing other free men. the only issue is when a free man kills a slave, when talio is not required (except in murder, according to Hanafis). furthermore, this: "slaves may lawfully be killed in vengeance (talio) if their master or their master's kinfolk kill the slave of another person" is not substantiated by the source i believe. ITAQALLAH16:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
the Encyclopedia of Islam and Levy write in the present tense. i would assume it's because the relative legal rulings and jurisprudence concerning slaves remains unchanged. ITAQALLAH17:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are going to need to summarize the current legal rulings and jurisprudence on slavery, or else acknowledge that Islam does not in fact prohibit slavery today. Tom HarrisonTalk17:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This section, authored by me has been excised by Merbabu. It was linked to other sections of Wikipedia on Abraham and Hagar as its sources. He can't see the relevance of it, and so he acts to suppress information about how one of the most important Islamic prophets ... treats his slave by abandoning her and their son in the desert. Of course, the conduct of Islamic 'prophets' acts as an example for muslims and of Islam - in respect to treatment of slaves, in this instance.
But anyway, it's been typically and predictably cut out before most editors got a chance to consider it so I'll relate it below.
On another note with regard to my personal life, a certain 'train' I've been expecting in recent weeks and waiting for has arrived. So, I expect to be retiring from Wiki-editing very soon.
The Islamic prophet Ibrahim abandons his slaveHagar and their child Ismail
Abraham (Ibrahim, under Islam) is acknowledged as an Islamic prophet. It is asserted that the Arabs are the progeny of him with his Ethiopian slave, Hagar. Hagar was given to him while he already had Sarah as a wife. By Abraham, Hajar gave birth to Ishmael (Arabic:Ismā'īl) which pleased him. Sarah thereafter regretted Abraham taking Hagar as a wife, so she prevailed upon him to send Hajar and Ishmael away.
Ibrahim brought Hajar to the hill called al-Marwa, left a bag of dates and some water nearby, and abandoned her. Hajar ran after him and said: "Are you going to leave us in this desert where there is no one to keep us company?" She repeated this many times but he would not look back at her.
Hagar, with Ishmael as a suckling, was left alone in bare desert far from human contact. She lived on the provisions until hunger and thirst overcame her. Her milk dried up, leaving Ishmael also hungry and thirsty.
Hoping to find water, she searched the desert but found nothing. She found Ishmael crying which made her weep also. She ran seven times back and forth in scorching heat between the hills of Safa and Marwa, in hope of seeing some water from high ground. Disappointed and tearful, she returned to Ishmael. Her search is superstitiously imitated by muslims in the act of ritual walking (sa`i, Arabic: سَعِي) between the same hills at Mecca as part of the performance of Islamic pilgrimage.
The legend concludes that Hajar and Ishmael were saved by Gabriel providing a source of water for her and Ishmael.
David, Abraham did it at God's command, not on his own. This image is misleading as Abraham was actually hesitant to do so. I don't think any Muslim has ever recieved a similar order from God so your evluation that "Of course, the conduct of Islamic 'prophets' acts as an example for muslims and of Islam - in respect to treatment of slaves, in this instance." is irrelevant. --Aminz00:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like the picture. The background story could possibly be condensed to "Abraham obeys God's order to abandon his concubine Hagar" or something like that. Arrow74001:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Simply put, the story and picture show an aspect of what it means to be a slave and the child of a slave in the context of Islam. Any muslim has that sunnah to inform his/her own conduct in relation to those enslaved. It's apt for the article.DavidYork7101:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what you mean.... that "picture show an aspect of what it means to be a slave and the child of a slave in the context of Islam" what aspect? in the context of islam? --Aminz01:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A slave of any pre-Islamic Middle Eastern figure is relevant to this section, let alone one claimed as a predecessor by Muhammad. Arrow74002:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This story is the reason why muslims run between the two hills in the desert heat seven times on pilgrimage. It's part of Islam. Everything Muhammad claimed is part of it.DavidYork7110:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Simply put, the story and picture show an aspect of what it means to be a slave and the child of a slave in the context of Islam. Any muslim has that sunnah to inform his/her own conduct in relation to those enslaved." - completely absurd argument, and false. ITAQALLAH15:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright permission for any pictures from www.frontline.org.za
The follow email message may be cited as permission for any of the pics from that site. I have previously uploaded some and used them in the article.
From : Frontline Fellowship <info@frontline.org.za>
Sent : Tuesday, 27 March 2007 1:57:26 PM
To : <Dy90@hotmail.com>
Subject : LETTER to DAVID YORK from DR PETER HAMMOND
Attention: David York
Dear Mr. York
Thank you for your letter 18/3 via Christian Action. You are most welcome to reproduce the pictures on Islam and slavery from our website. They are a public domain. They were sketched by contemporaries in the 19th Century. I obtained these pictures from a variety of old books from second hand bookshops.
If we can be of any further assistance, please do let us know.
Yours for faith and freedom
Dr. Peter Hammond
"I obtained these pictures from a variety of old books from second hand bookshops." that doesn't prove that the pictures are geniune. --Aminz01:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The statement "In Imami Shiite jurisrudence, the master of a female slave may grant a third party the use of her for sexual relations.[1]"
must be verified by an imami source of jurisprudence.
It doesn't have to be a "imami source of jurisprudence". As long as it is a reliable source, which I believe EOI is, it is fine by Wiki policy. NN07:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Arrow, can you please point me to the quote. I searched the article for "Imami", etc etc and couldn't find the quote. --Aminz08:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It has the same status as other statements from EoI. Leave it and then bring forward the Imami rulings that confirm or explain it later as added refs.DavidYork7110:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Shia Jurisprudence
In Shia jurisrudence, the master of a female slave may grant a third party the use of her for sexual relations.[1], Arrow740, EoI is not a sufficient source for SHIA Jurisprudence. For eg. If someone were to claim a ruling in Christian Canon Law, they would have to refer to the Canon law source. It would not be sufficient to refer to any other source besides the Canon books. It is only logical. If you can obtain a source that quotes a ruling from a Shiite Islamic Jurist, then that would be sufficient. EoI has been called into question regarding certain aspects that it has claimed to be of Shiite interpretation. EoI is by no means a monolithic piece of literature on the entirety of Islam in ACCURATE DETAIL. Al-Zaidi
I have posted something on Tom Harrison's page about this. Brunschvig quotes the classic scholar Al-Hilli. Unlike Sunni jurists who belonged to early days of Islam, Shia jurists are present up to now. I don't think they address such details about slavery anymore(at least it is not present in the specific popular books they publish). If they do, they can have their own opinion (e.g. some of them consider women's inheritence the same as that of man because of the new social order of the community; some others consider apostasy not to be punishable by death unless it is apostasy+treason etc etc). But after all, they all belong to the same tradition as Al-Hilli belonged. One example where many of today's jurists distance from Al-Hilli is on the ritual cleanness of people of the book. Anyways. --Aminz05:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This article does not mention the issue of slavery in other parts of the world and other religions. Wouldn't such a provision of context be informative? Articles don't have to stand alone in isolation. Merbabu04:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In a few places I have advertised for a GAreviewer as follows:
The abovenoted article, to which I have contributed, I have nommed for GA. It needs a GA reviewer who is not in the business of glorifying Islam, bashing Islam or sugarcoating/minimising/denying the facts and circumstances of slavery. Most important is that the rights or dignities allowed to slaves by Islam have a proper exposure.
My view of the I&S article is that it is informative, wellreferenced, wellresearched, comprehensive wellillustrated and LONG. On the subject of neutrality or stability, I would just ask that the article itself and not the disputatiousness of the talk page be kept in focus as the subject of review.
Now that I have your interest do I have a volunteer??DavidYork71 08:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It is a bit on the long side (ref WP:LENGTH), is not written in encyclopaedic prose style, overly relies on direct quotes from a particular source (Gordon) and uses images with unclear copyright status. Until these matters are cleared up, the article is unlikely to pass a competent GA process. Orderinchaos08:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Slavery in the Hadith
I have included some material on what Muhammad said on the matter of slavery according to Hadiths. David York keeps deleting that material. Should what Muhammad said about slavery not be included? The Hadith are Islam's second most important scripture, after the Koran. If the style of writing needs to be changed, let me know. The content itself is very relevant to the article, and is actually absolutely necessary. Coldbud16:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Hadiths are primary sources. We can include those to illustrate and support secondary sources, but if we rely on them by themselves it is hard to avoid doing original research. It would be better to cite the opinions of scholars who have said which hadiths are relevent and what they mean. Tom HarrisonTalk17:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The preceding section is Slavery in the Quran where many examples are taken directly from the Quran itself. Shouldnt David York have deleted that as well then? Coldbud22:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A depiction of the Islamic prophet Ibrahim repudiating his slave Hajar and their child Ismail in ancient pre-Islamic Arabia. Hajar's search for water to aid herself and Ismail is imitated by muslims in the act of ritual walking seven times between the hills of Safa and Marwa[2] at Mecca as part of the performance of Islamic pilgrimage.
I found this picture and caption in the edit history. I placed it in the pre-islamic slavery section ... seemed most appropriate, useful content for the article, and something which relates to a custom still(currently) observed in Islamic pilgrimage. I can see how it relates to Islam, slavery and preislamic Arabia. What views are there about putting it anywhere else in the article?
Another image
Among other pronouncements about slaves, Muhammad (pictured preaching in a 15th century illustration) is reported to have said:""Allah has forbidden the Paradise to three people: the alcoholic, the runaway slave, and the one who is complacent in the face of the evil deeds that his family is performing" (Sahih al-Jami # 3047)."[3]Among other pronouncements about slaves, Muhammad (pictured preaching in a 15th century illustration) is reported to have said:"If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void."[4]
I found these in the edit history. Both seem to reveal important statement by Muhammad concerning runaway slaves and the (marriage) rights of slaves. Please discuss best placement. Under 'hadith' for the one about 'runaway slave' I suggest.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.135.34.252
^ abCite error: The named reference eois was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
