Talk:Morecambe and Wise

Ratings

The article cites a "long held myth" about the 1977 Christmas Show as being the most-watched variety show ever at Christmas with 28 million viewers, when in fact Mike Yarwood's show had a fractionally larger audience. It goes on "while the size of the audience is not in doubt..." Unfortunately it is: 28 million is also a myth. The verified figure (courtesy of the British Film Institute), is 21.40 for Yarwood, and 21.30 for M&W, well below the figure usually cited. --Stevouk (talk) 16:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Prior to c1981 the BBC and ITV used separate companies & methods for gathering audience data and neither method was considered definitive. There were a number of times when the two systems produced quite variable figures. A further problem came if a show had a second screening in the same week with some systems simply summing the viewers for both screenings and others keeping them separate, but I don't know if this was a factor for these two shows. Timrollpickering (talk) 01:06, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The shows in question were only shown once - both of them on Christmas Day.86.130.98.78 (talk) 03:38, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Christmas shows

After recent resaerch, I think an amendment is required to this sub-catagorie. Linked is a page of Christmas Day television listings as printed for the relevant years Christmas Radio Times. Note 1974. No Morecambe And Wise Christmas Show. Eric and Ernies only appearance that year, way down the listings at 11.25. Here is the Link [2]

Here is the Christmas '74 line up from 4.05

4.05 FILM: True Grit

6.10 News

6.15 Bruce Forsyth and the Generation Game

7.15 Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em Jessica's First Christmas

8.05 The Mike Yarwood Christmas Show

8.45 FILM: Bridge on the River Kwai

11.20 News

• 11.25 Parkinson Takes a Christmas Look at Morecambe and Wise*

12.40am-12.45 Weather

So despite not producing material that year and therefore not producing a Christmas show as stated, no amendment is to be made? 1974 was not a Christmas show, it was highlights of past Christmas and regular series shows, mereley, as the show title suggests, put together for Christmas and presented by Michael Parkinson. Futhermore 11.25pm until 12.40am can hardly be described as a viewing time where ".....few British families would dream of missing them".

ITV website

I have removed the link to the ITV website, because the page the link went to is an advertisement page for ITV. The page had nothing, whatsoever, to do with "Morecambe and Wise". Although I attempted to find a page, or pages, devoted to "Morecambe and Wise" on the website, I could not find any (even though a page about their Christmas shows was supposed to be on the website). Figaro 08:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Films

They were actually in four films! Night Train To Murder being the last, I don't know when this was though, what do you guys think? Help plz 14:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Morecambe-amd-Wise Bring-Me-Sunshine.jpg

Image:Morecambe-amd-Wise Bring-Me-Sunshine.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Janet Webb

The article says that Janet Webb only ever appeared at the end of the shows. That is not correct. She actually appeared during the show in which Arthur Lowe appeared - she appeared in a part in dialogue with AL, and M&W, and also in the "play" later on. 82.29.215.250 10:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

She also appeared in the 1972 Christmas show, giving the line "I worked with Morecambe and Wise, and look what happened to me" before being revealed to live in a mansion and have a chauffeured Rolls Royce. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The Stripper

I'll have to verify the reference but according to Graham McCann's biography of M&W, the 'Stripper' sketch was not an Eddie Braben idea. It was something they came up with in rehearsal which was seized upon and developed by their then producer Ernest Maxin, who had a background in song and dance. Lexo 13:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

In the 1/1/08 documentary, Morecambe said it was Wise's idea. Apepper (talk) 17:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Im pretty sure this sketch has also been used by some band for one of their music videos, i forget which one though and ive no idea when it was either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trisma23 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The video was "Crash" by the Propellorheads from 1998.109.145.187.251 (talk) 14:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Andre Previn sketch

When the ATV series was repeated recently, I was surprised to see the "original" version of this sketch - largely the same except that Wise was the conductor; it explains why Ernie has so little to do in the Previn version. Presumably, Sid and Dick actually wrote the sketch and it was revised by Eddie Braben - AFAIK this was the only "classic" BBC sketch that was written by Sid & Dick - is this worth a note in the article? Apepper (talk) 17:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I've never seen the ATV series; if you can give me a source for Hills and Green's writing credit, and details of what episode it was, etc., I'll put a note in the article. Hills and Green may have written the original version, but all I can say is that I can't imagine it working nearly so well without Previn as the conductor, partly because it's so funny that he's a real conductor and partly because he's just so good in the sketch. Lexo (talk) 13:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

No it wasn't so good - I don't remember the details unfortunately, but I can't imagine they ran to paying for an orchestra! I don't have the "Two of a Kind" dvds - which would be the best reference - but I'll keep my eyes open for a reference book that lists the sketches. Apepper (talk) 09:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I've found a website listing the sketches in Two of a Kind; [3]. Series 3, episode 7 lists the Grieg Piano Concerto sketch. Apepper (talk) 11:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I've added a sentence mentioning the original sketch. Apepper (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Just for interest; a clip from the original sketch was shown on Paul Merton's tribute to M&W last night (2nd Jan 2009) Apepper (talk) 21:40, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Now the sketch is available on youtube, I've changed the quotation. 212.84.102.224 (talk) 10:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't find the youtube version; could you give the link? Apepper (talk) 08:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

There's a jumpy version [4] that's from a 1963 LP. Apepper (talk) 11:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Hills and Green were very upset that their sketch was rewritten without any acknowledgement of their role in its creation. They sought restitution through various means short of formal legal action but were repeatedly rebuffed. Eddie Braben himself, in interviews, did not acknowledge that the sketch was a rewrite, and went so far as to claim that he was inspired to write it after hearing Eric playing the piano.81.147.104.122 (talk)

General cleanup and revamp

Hi - there is a lot of good stuff in this article but I am concerned at the lack of references. The only book I have on the subject is Graham McCann's biography, which is very accurate and properly sourced but one book is not really enough to serve as the foundation for an entire article. Right now I feel that this article has the feel of a fanpage, more than an encyclopedia article; there are a lot of unsourced assertions about how great M&W were, etc. I think they were great too (they're my favourite double act of all time) but I want to keep the article to a good standard, so I've been going through trying to keep what seems to me to be useful and indisputable and cutting or reworking whatever seems less useful or just plain irrelevant. I do not want to annoy anyone, and am inviting contributors to add stuff, but make sure you're familiar with wikipedia guidelines.

One proposal I have is to establish a convention for naming the subjects of the article. It doesn't look good to call them "Morecambe", "Wise", "Eric", "Ernie" at random; it looks inconsistent as well as too chummy. I suggest that when we are talking about the men, the ones who were awarded OBEs and who had careers and families and private lives, we refer to them as "Morecambe" and "Wise"; when we are referring to their stage/TV personae, the characters that they played, the ones who appear in front of the camera, we call them "Eric" and "Ernie". So Wise was their manager, but Ernie is the one what wrote plays; Morecambe had heart attacks, but Eric is the one who grabbed André Previn by the lapels. This is at least consistent. Agreed? Lexo (talk) 13:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Category:Morecambe and Wise is up for deletion

here. People may like to join the debate! Johnbod (talk) 02:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

You were going delete this?

Who ever suggested that is complete idiot. Are you going to delete every double act in wikipedia? How stupid are you people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.251.122.217 (talk) 19:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The talk is about deleting the Category of Morecambe and Wise-related articles - that is, the page on which they are all listed together, not the articles themselves. Please read things properly before you start calling people "stupid".

I don't personally see the point in having a Category listing for Morecambe and Wise, seeing as it's not one of the more immediately useful categories in the world. Lexo (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Des O'Connor

Surely the frequent jokes about Des O'Connor should be mentioned somewhere in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.111.126 (talk) 22:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I don't have a ny books to reference it though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Get out of that then!

Was this based on a film they made? Rich Farmbrough, 20:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC).

Holland

I have a memory that, quite often, Ernie would respond to the name 'Holland' by saying that it was 'just outside Peterborough'. But I can't find it anywhere. Myrvin (talk) 18:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Catchphrases list

A list of random catchphrases has no place on Wikipedia, per WP:TRIVIA, WP:QUOTEFARM, and WP:IINFO. The list is also unreferenced and extremely long. It should go. TallNapoleon (talk) 16:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, I disagree. I'm guessing that most people who like M&W would not think the list out of place. After work by several editors, it seems now to have levelled off. Other comic acts have quotations and catchphrases. For M&W there happen to be more than for the others. The list says a lot about their appeal. Myrvin (talk) 19:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy on quote lists like this is quite clear: they should not be here. It does not matter what other comics have similar sections; those pages are wrong too, and those sections should be similarly excised. Nor is the appeal or popularity of M&W in any way relevant. TallNapoleon (talk) 20:10, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with your interpretation of the guidelines. Note: "guidelines" not "policy". This is not the law we are discussing, but style. However, when it comes to the letter of the guidelines I note the following from WP:Trivia:

There are a number of pervasive misunderstandings about this guideline and the course of action it suggests: This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all. This guideline does not suggest always avoiding lists in favor of prose. Some information is better presented in list format. This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by content policies.

Also:

In this guideline, the term "trivia section" refers to a section's content, not its name. A trivia section is one that contains a disorganized and "unselective" list. However, a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information.

That's what I think we have: "a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme ". Myrvin (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I disagree; I do not believe that an unreferenced list of catchphrases devoid of any context in any way belongs in an encyclopedia. That aside, since it seems like right now we're the only two who care, and we're not going to reach agreement, I suggest we take this to WP:Content noticeboard so that we can get more opinions, instead of bashing our skulls together. TallNapoleon (talk) 01:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Posted to the content noticeboard. TallNapoleon (talk) 04:13, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Storing the list: Ian Carmichael was Hoagy Carmichael. Elton John was Elephant John.

Some of the duo's catchphrases include:

• "What do you think of it so far?" (said by Eric, who would use a prop—such as a statue or stuffed toy—to answer: "Rubbish!") Morecambe said later that whenever Luton Town were playing away and he happened to be in the director's box, if Luton were behind at half-time the home fans would shout 'What do you think of it so far?'.
• "Hello Sunshine".
• "Tea, Ern?" (a pun on "tea urn", a vessel for serving hot drinks used in workplaces).
• "[He's got] short, fat, hairy legs" (said by Eric of Ernie).
• "You can't see the join!" (said by Eric of Ernie's alleged wig).
• "The play what I wrote" (said by Ernie of his literary works).
• "Hello, and what about the workers" often accompanied by a slap to the back of his own neck.
• "Arsenal!" (said by Eric), dating from a sketch in which Eric is an incompetent 'Mr Memory' unable to remember anything without unsubtle prompting from Ernie. It developed into a running gag, so that whenever Ernie coughed, Eric would shout 'Arsenal!'.
• "He's not wrong, you know" (said by Eric).
• "Wahey!" (said by Eric after what he considers is a particularly good joke).
• "He's still got it, you know" (said by Eric, referring to himself, after what he considers a particularly good joke).
• "There's no answer to that!" (said by Eric after anything which could be construed as innuendo; he also said "Pardon?" in a similar way).
• Making fun of the singer and entertainer Des O'Connor in various disparaging ways, e.g. "If you want me to be a goner, get me an LP by Des O'Connor".
• "That's easy for you to say!" (Eric) if anyone fluffed their line.
• Eric deliberately getting guest stars' names wrong.
• "Just watch it, that's all!" (said by Eric when grabbing Ernie by the lapels).
• "You said that without moving your lips" (said by Eric if someone said a line whilst he was looking at somebody else).
• Eric to Ernie: "I see your fan's in!".
• Eric: "Look at me when I'm talking to you!".
• Eric: "This boy's a fool!" when bamboozling Ernie or the guest star.
• Eric: "Get out of that!" when holding his open hand underneath Ernie's chin. This was meant to be a karate move that incapacitated the victim. Often followed by "You can't, can you?".
• Eric: "(It's) nice out isn't it?". A reference to a dirty joke eventually expounded on the TV show Parkinson.
• Eric: "They can't touch you for it" (i.e. it is not illegal). A comment following a slightly obscure word, turning it into a double entendre.
• Eric: "Ready when you are, pally!"
• Eric: "Evenin' all! (Sorry I'm late but...)" when making his entry during one of Ernie's plays.
• "Hold it son! (Are you holding it?)" said by Eric to stop the music.
• Eric: "How do you do that?" said to Ernie when the door bell rang in their flat.
• Eric: "Be honest!" after what he thought was a particularly good routine.

Additionally, there were many repeated visual gags:

• As Ernie finally sings the duo's theme song, "Bring Me Sunshine", Eric walks across the back of the stage dressed in an overcoat and cloth cap and carrying a shopping bag. (Rather poignantly, this gag originated in Eric's being medically forbidden to dance: unable to participate in the routine, he is seen 'on the way to the bus stop').
• Eric affectionately slapping the top of Wise's shoulders, then cheeks, with both hands.
• Ernie's hair supposedly being a wig (also the catchphase said by Morecambe: "You can't see the join").
• Eric settling his glasses askew on his nose.
• Eric pretending to bully people, usually the star guest, by grabbing them by the lapels and pulling them to his face.
• Ernie appearing on stage and Eric joining him from behind the curtain but being unable to find the opening and then trying to fight his way out.
• The duo's dance at the end of each show, which would see them exiting the stage by skipping and putting alternate hands behind their heads and backs.
• Fake title sequences for Ernie's plays which satirised current events or popular personalities of the time.
• Visual jokes about Luton Town F.C., a football club of which Morecambe was a director.
• Eric's prop (such as a mop, cuffs, a cane) getting progressively longer during dance sequences.
• Eric would hold an empty paper bag in one hand, throw an imaginary coin, or other small object, into the air, watch it during its flight and when it supposedly landed in the bag, flick the bag with his finger giving the impression that the item had landed in the bag.
• Eric putting a paper cup over his mouth and nose and performing a brief impersonation of Jimmy Durante; 'Sitting at my pianna the udder day ...'.
• Eric noticing the camera and putting on a fixed, cheesy grin. Ernie would frequently notice him doing this, stand behind Eric and grin a similar grin into the camera, over Eric's shoulder.
• Eric standing in front of stage curtains and pretending an arm comes out from behind the curtain and seizes him by the throat.
• Eric grimacing like Humphrey Bogart (he thinks) if Ernie or a guest gets particularly challenging.
• Eric and Ernie introducing the special guest then facing stage-left with their arm out, and the guest comes on stage from stage-right.

References

Photo

The photo at the lead of the article isn't a great one, it's rather sombre, and doesn't suggest comedy at all. But further on there is a much livelier, more humorous photo of them. It would be better if that photo was in the lead. Any objections if I elevate that photo and get rid of the other one? asnac (talk) 17:39, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Morecambe and Wise : The Whole Story

Can anyone enlighten me about the two programmes shown on BBC Two on 24.11.2013 and 01.12.2013 entitled 'Morecambe and Wise: the Whole Story'.

The closing credits showed the date 2008 yet the programme was shown - I believe - for the first time in 2013. Is there a reason for this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.98.78 (talk) 03:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Eric's date of birth

What is Eric's date of birth? The info box states 14 May, while the opening paragraph states 19 May. The Eric Morecambe page states 14 May. I will change the opening paragraph, unless anyone else knows better. Darkieboy236 (talk) 12:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

No Mention of The Beatles' Appearance...?

In which Eric refers to Ringo as 'Bongo' and makes a nice, sharp return-of-serve to Lennon when he suggests that M & W are passé? 121.44.152.61 (talk) 09:31, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Earliest surviving TV appearance

I've just watch the Good Old Days from 1959 - which starred M+W. Is this the earliest surviving TV appearance?

Apepper (talk) 14:55, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Move to ITV missing

Completely missing from this article is the dynamic of the pair's move to ITV - rather this is covered in the page on the ITV series. Also left to the last series page is more detail on their final years which I believe really should be incorporated onto this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indieshack (talk • contribs) 00:01, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Arthur Worsley

Sentences such as "This is of course classic Worsley" or mentioning lines that Morecambe "borrowed" (complete with sarcastic inverted commas) are not really encyclopedic. It's legitimate to mention other acts that might have influenced M&W, but remember WP:NPOV. MFlet1 (talk) 12:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

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Missing TV Series?

I can recall M+W hosting a BBC children's series shortly before the return to ITV; children would write sketches and they be performed - often by M+W but professionally. M+W would interview the authors. I have few memories of the series - I can remember one boy being so helpless with laughter that he couldn't speak.

Apepper (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)