Talk:Urban districts of Ukraine

Discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei (talk) 00:22, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second level?

How can raions within cities (urban districts) be classified as second level administrative divisions along side cities of regional significance when most raions within cities are within and subordinate to cities of regional significance? Is it because the two special cities have these raions, too? I guess since cities all the way from cities like Kiev all the way down to cities of district signficance can have raions within them, perhaps it'd be more accurate to list the range of their administration? Because they certainly appear to exist on more than just the second level. In fact, the vast majority of them seem to be on the third and fourth level of administration (i.e. within and subordinate to cities of regional and district significance). --Criticalthinker (talk) 13:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Any explanation of this? I'm still not clear on this. As to another question concerning these districts, this graphic of Donetsk confuses me (File:Raions of Donetsk and Donetsk City Municipality.PNG). Do districts don't even have to cover the full area of a city? More than that, can cities of district significance and settlement councils subordinate to cities of regional signifiance exist in multiple different city districts? I guess what's not clear is if these districts are in independent layer or a level of local governance, themselves in which lower councils are subordinate to them. --Criticalthinker (talk) 12:03, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, your confusion is understandable. Back in 2001 this issue was brought in front of the Constitution Court of Ukraine, however the explanation of the last one was vague due to limited legal background of the subject. ([1]) The urban districts are formed at discretion of the city municipality (authorities) on petition of a local community. Note that other forms of administrative division (regions, raions, local councils) are formed exclusively on the decision of the Verkhovna Rada. Borders of those urban districts will never pass the borders of municipality (city of regional significance). Municipality may have other settlements subordinated to it, therefore the urban districts may have certain settlements that are part of the municipality be included in those districts. Note that only bigger cities of regional significance decided to have own city division. Existence of urban districts in cities of district significance never took place, although legally is not prohibited. There is no history of urban districts being subordinated to city of district significance. I agree that placing them as part of the second tier of administrative division is not very accurate, but they do seem definitely higher the third tier that consists of local councils that are subordinated to raions and cities of regional significance. Urban districts are created at discretion of local city municipality to facilitate administration of bigger cities and are not established by the Verkhovna Rada. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 06:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Aleksandr Grigoryev, thank you. This clears up quite a bit. But, I still need a few things cleared up if you are able to answer them:

1. Can a settlement or city of district significance under the jurisdiction of a city of regional significance cross the boundaries of more than one city district? I'm aware that these are wholly contained within a city of regional significance, but can they cross city districts lines within that city of regional significance?

2. When a city (of regional significance) decides to divide itself into city districts, must these city districts cover the entirety of the territory? That map I linked you to of Donetsk seems to imply that the entire territory of a city doesn't necessarily have to be covered by city districts when they decide to have them.

3. Do you have any examples of where a someone could live in both a city of district signifiance or settlement council, but also under jurisdiction of a city district? Is this possible, or do these layers no overlay one another? I think this is what may be confusing me the most; it would seem quite redundant in a city of regional significance is a person further lived under the jurisdiction of a city district AND a city of district signifiance.

Anyway, it sounds to me that city districts are a seperate layer of governance (municipal) not necessarily on the national administrative heirarchy (administrative), but technically on the level of raions. Actually, I guess I'd describe them as being a half-step below the level of cities of regional signicance and raions, but above the level of cities of district signifiance and settlement councils, sort of like in China how you have sub-provincial cities, which are not on the level of provinces, but are still half-a-step above precture-level cities. So I guess it'd be most accurate to describe them on the administrative heirarchy as being a half-step above the third level and/or a half-step below the second level.

BTW, is this similar in any way to how Russia has two different layers (municipal and administrative) that overlap one another, or is this totally different? --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, I will start from the end. Russia the same as Ukraine was part of the bigger Soviet Union and the system of the Soviet Empire was majorly preserved in the both countries. Reforms of administrative division in Russia ended up mostly in renaming terms. In regards to the Russian administrative division I would recommend to contact User:Ezhiki (hedgehog:). About your description of half step below and above that is exactly what it looks like to me. The issue of the administrative division reform in Ukraine is a hot topic of discussion in Ukraine and continues since the late 1990s and early 2000. Those reforms are moving at a snail's rate. About the map of the Donetsk city of regional significance and your question #2, my assumptions are that any city of regional significance or with special status that adopts its decision for division on urban districts, all its municipal territory is divided. The reason why the map is showing white spots in some areas I am not certain. About overlay, I never heard anything like that. About your question #3, the city of Vynnyky in Lviv is part of one of the Lviv's city district, the city of Mospyne in Donetsk is part of one of the Donetsk's city district. About your question #1, a city of district significance cannot overlay borders of a city of regional significance, it either belongs to the city or the raion around it. The category for cities of district significance was created purely out of fiscal purpose. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Aleksandr Grigoryev, I think you misunderstood a few of my questions. On question #1, I wasn't asking whether a city of district significance can cross the border of a city of regional significance, rather can it cross the borders of city districts within that city of region significance? so using Mospyne City (of district significance) as an example, its page says it's located in Donetsk City's Proletrasky District. But would it be possible for the its boundaries to cross into other city districts? Just want to know if it not only has to exist entirely within the boundaries of a city of regional signifiance or a raion, but also entirely within only one city district in a city of regional signifiance? It appears you've answered question #2 entirely. A city that chooses to be divided into city districts is wholly divided into them, so the map on Donetsk page must be incorrect. Maybe I can make a case for it to be removed so as not to confuse people. I also think in a round-about way you did in fact answer question #3. A person in a city of district signifiance within a city of regional signifiance which has decided to divide itself into city districts is under the jurisdiction of three local governments or local administrative divisions: the government of the city of regional signifiance, the city district, and the government of the city of district signifiance.

Anyway, it appears that "city districts" are both another level of municipal governance with their own district councils AND another layer of administrative division, which is different than Russian city districts which are only an additional layer of administrative division without their own municipal/local governments. --Criticalthinker (talk) 13:34, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, oh, yeah, good point. I do not know that. I did not run across that yet, but, taking as for example of Mospyne, not only the city alone belongs to the Proletarskyi district, rather the whole municipality (city of district significance) is part of the district and within the Mospyne municipality there are more separate settlements which collectively are also part of the same district. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:26, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, please, note that most entities of the administrative division are created and approved by the Verkhovna Rada, urban [city] districts are purely a prerogative of cities where these entities created. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:34, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, when I spoke about Mospyne, I was definitely speaking of the "city" as the entire municipality. I was just wondering if a city/municipality like Mospyne could cross city districts, that's all. As for that second part, the article mentions both Article 133 and Article 140 in the Ukrainian Constitution, which seem to contradict each other. But, maybe it's simply not made clear on the page and I'm reading into incorrectly. BTW, just found another map of Horlivka Municipality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horlivka#/media/File:Raions_of_Horlivka.png) again showing city districts not covering the entirety of a city of regional significance. Either someone making these maps is making them incorrectly, or there can be parts of municipalities within these kind of cities with city districts not under the jurisdiction of a city district.

Anyway, thanks for all of your patience and explaining this all to me to the best of your ability. You've been very helpful. --Criticalthinker (talk) 15:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the more I look at those maps, maybe that is the illustrators way of showing the individual populated places. That's why the numbered populated places are shown with the colors of their respective district. It's still not the best way to do this, I'd think. It'd be easier/more accurate to simple put a number where the populated place in within the district and city and leave the entire map colored in. --Criticalthinker (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Aleksandr Grigoryev, it appears there are still two outstanding issues/question: 1. Can the boundaries of a rural, settlement, or city (of district signifcance) cross the boundaries of a city district within a city of regional sigifance, or must these subordinate council boundaries exist wholly within the boundaries of a city district? And 2. Are the maps on the pages of Horlivka and Donetsk - cities which have chosen to be divided into city districts - incorrect in showing territory within those cities that isn't under the subordination/jurisdiction of any city district? You'd said earlier that cities that choose city district divisions must be entirely divided into those city districts, but these maps on Ukrainian city pages shows otherwise. If I can get these two things clarified, I believe this may be might last questions for awhile about municipal government in Ukraine. --Criticalthinker (talk) 12:32, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, my answer to your first question is no. More detailed, Cities of Regional Significance are at the same level as the regular Raions. Those cities may or may not contain other settlements and areas subordinated to theirs local councils (authorities). Each such settlement cannot be under two jurisdictions. As a great example, a town of Kotsyubynske geographically is located and completely surrounded by Kyiv city, however it is part of the city of regional significance Irpin which in its turn is one of subdivisions of Kyiv Oblast and immediate suburb of the Kyiv city. For my answer to your second question and the following comment I did answer previously. A lot of maps about Ukraine were created by a user Olegzima and accuracy of which should be discussed with him. I am not certain about those white spots and to which district or portion of city they belong, but they are definitely part of a city of regional significance. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Aleksandr Grigoryev, you are still not understanding my question. I get that cities of regional signifiance can't cross regional borders. I'm not asking that. I'm asking about subordinate councils (rural, settlement and city) WITHIN cities of regional significance divided into urban districts. I'm very, very simply asking whether these lower-level council borders are always wholly contained within ONE urban district in the city, or if these lower-level councils can cross the boundaries of these urban districts? As for the maps, I'll talk to DDima aboutt them. Thanks. --Criticalthinker (talk) 03:43, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, sorry:). I guess I don't know. I have never seen such an instance. There is pretty straight forward "chain of command" per se, usually. If a city that has urban districts and also has satellite populated places, those places are simply included within the adjacent district, the whole council (community). Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:25, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, back to the map of Donetsk, those satellite places (some with own council) around Mospyne are actually a part of the Mospyne city council, which in its order is party of the Proletarskyi District of Donetsk city. Thus, the whole "chain" of those populated places are part of the Proletarskyi District. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:31, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I understood the areas around Mospyne were part of the Prletarski District as they are colored green the same as Mospyne. Like I said, I got that in the specific case there are seperate settlements from the central city this is the best way to show this. I was more talking about the empty white space along the western, northern and eastern borders of the city which aren't color-coded, which seems to imply they don't belong to any district. I've asked DDima about these to see if the map is simply incorrect, or if perhaps he left them uncolored because he doesn't personally know the boundaries of those city districts. --Criticalthinker (talk) 04:58, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, according to the Olegzima's map of Donetsk City, it looks as those white spots even though marked in different color might belong to their adjacent city districts (otherwise, what is the purpose of the dotted line separating Proletarskyi District?). My understanding is that they were marked so to contrast out separate populated places and may be something else. If they white area would be omitted, the city of Mospyne won't be seen on the map. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, on the other hand, those white spots are figuratively speaking a grey area of jurisdiction in my understanding. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:48, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticalthinker, I was wrong about the authorship of the map. It looks that it was created by DDima. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:52, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus against moving. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 00:38, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Urban districts of Ukraine → List of urban raions of Ukraine – For WP:CONSISTENCY with List of raions of Ukraine. This represents the general concept and terminology of raions applied specifically to urban locales. The articles should be named consistently to reduce confusion. —Michael Z. 16:13, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – It was a consensus of users at WikiProject Ukraine that decided that these should be referred to as 'urban districts', so as to distinguish them from raions. The discussion is recorded at the talk page for WP:UAPLACE. The reasons for the change were two-fold: one, raions and urban districts are functionally quite different in practice, and two, urban districts are commonly referred to as 'districts' in English, even when 'regular' raions are referred to as 'raions'. English sources write Kyivskyi District, Donetsk, not Kyivskyi Urban Raion, Donetsk, and therefore we ought follow reliable sources on this matter (see for instance this example). RGloucester — ☎ 16:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the detailed explanation. The conversation over there is enlightening as to how we form the proper name of a specific urban raion and refer to it, however it is only peripheral to the question of the common name we use to refer to the concept of urban raion in Ukraine. The WP:CRITERIA of specificity and precision may be better served with a different formulation to identify a country-specific third-level subdivision type than to identify a specific place. In many other cases they are necessarily different, e.g., 11 of 12 provinces and territories of Canada don’t have the subdivision type in their name. (That discussion also brings up some related issues and makes me question assumptions about frequency of use: I suspect subdivision type is not really part of a proper name, and the letter case of Lviv oblast or Busk raion might be most common.) —Michael Z. 13:44, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that 'Kyivskyi District' should most likely be 'Kyivskyi district', and so forth, based on WP:NCCAPS. On the narrow issue of the title of this article, it is hard to argue there is a common name of any kind: a Google search for urban raions produces only this page as a result, and a search for urban district produces some results that are not Wikipedia, but they hardly seem to be the best quality. Perhaps an easier way to determine common usage is to search for 'Districts of Kiev' and 'Raions of Kiev' (using 'Kiev' rather than 'Kyiv' to pick up historical usage), in which case one sees 'districts' with nearly 64,000 hits, and 'raions' with a mere 1,560. In that case, I think, given that we do know that when the districts are referred to AS A PLACE, that the word 'district' is generally used in English rather than 'raion', I think it makes sense per WP:NATURALNESS and WP:RECOGNISABILITY to avoid WP:ASTONISHing the reader by using district in the concept article's title. RGloucester — ☎ 14:07, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your search count is wrong. Going by WP:SET, you may find you get 142 results, not 64,000. The guideline also says to search WP:RELIABLE SOURCES using Google Books and Scholar search, not Web Search. —Michael Z. 17:40, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what's wrong about it, and furthermore, as I said, this was a mere cursory search, nothing more. English RS generally do not commonly refer to this subject as a 'concept' at all, so the usefulness of any search is questionable. At the same time, it does indicate that as places, people do generally use 'district' for urban districts. RGloucester — ☎ 18:55, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That’s mildly disturbing. What’s wrong with it, for starters, is that you read the “estimate” figure that’s off by 45,000 percent and I can’t tell if you heard me after I pointed it out. The real number is only on the last page of results. —Michael Z. 15:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As above, this is a question of balance between accessibility and precision. District is more well known but also means a lot of other specific and non-specific things. Raion is also English, cited in the OED from 1830, and is specific to some Eastern European states and to this particular subdivision type. It has also been translated region and precinct, and probably otherwise. —Michael Z. 17:07, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of consistency of the level of precision, we can also compare titles of articles about amalgamated hromada, autonomous republic of Ukraine, city of district significance (Ukraine), city of regional significance (Ukraine), city with special status, governorate (Russia)#Guberniya in Ukraine, hromada, oblasts of Ukraine, okrugs of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, okruhas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (different-language transcriptions of the same word), raion, regiment (administrative unit), rural council (Ukraine), selsoviet, settlement council (Ukraine), and lists list of cities in Ukraine, list of hromadas of Ukraine, list of raions of Ukraine, List of Ukrainian oblasts and territories by area (&c.). There is no specific article for povit, which was called a powiat in Polish and uyezd in Russian.

By the way of course “districts” tops an indiscriminate comparison, because it refers to a number of different concepts, demonstrating why specificity and precision might be preferred in this case. —Michael Z. 17:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not opposed using the word 'raion', and as I said, raion should be retained for non-urban raions, as those are commonly referred to as raions in RS. Unfortunately, urban districts are not commonly referred to as raions in RS and there is no reason to impose a false consistency that does not reflect how things are actually referred to. Wikipedia should not refer to a subject differently from how it is usually referred to in reliable sources. Even Kyiv Post uses 'district' for urban districts, but 'raion' for normal raions. Let's follow RS, not make stuff up specifically for Wikipedia. RGloucester — ☎ 18:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t believe there is or was an Ilovaisk/Ilovaiskyi raion: perhaps someone mistranslated a generic use of Ukrainian raion meaning “local area.” If your contention is that Kyiv Post or a broader range of sources systematically translate this way, you’ll have to show some better evidence (but something tells me they are not so disciplined). They also translate rural raion as “district”.[2][3] —Michael Z. 15:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support for consistency--RicardoNixon97 (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per RGloucester. Urban districts are essentially similar to starostynski okruh in smaller hromadas. Urban districts have nothing to do with raions in Ukraine, which consist of several hromadas. Moreover with the new proposed constitutional changes the raions in Ukraine will change their name to povits and urban districts will keep there names. Delasse (talk) 08:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.