Talk:Alone in the Dark (1992 video game)

Untitled

I don't believe this game was made by atari, maybe published on certian systems but I've played the game several times on the pc and never seen the atari brand logo anyway.
--- Take it back, infogrames, the developer, was bought by atari. Also a version was released on the 3do I believe. My suspicion is confirmed by the picture that clearly displays the 3do logo.
--- Made all these changes.

It was the other way around - Infogrames bought the rights to the Atari image and logo and renamed themselves Atari. I'd be very surprised if what we now call Atari employs anyone who worked at any of the previous hardware or software organisations that went by that name. One bit of confusion remains - I've heard reference to the game actually being developed by a group called I-Motion, but I've never found any details on that entity. If anyone can clear that up, please do.

Mac

This was also released on the Mac

Lord Boleskine

I thought Boleskine was an alias of Aleister Crowley, and that's what the book in the game is referring? Which would make sense as a reference to someone immersed in the "occult"...

The book refers to events before the game Shadow of the Comet. It mentions all the things Parker talks about or encounters like the child guide, the sons with the webbed hands, Halley's Comet and the stone circle in the woods. I think the name was just a homage to Aliester Crowley rather it being him, since Boleskin's ghost helps you destroy the portals in the story and has no real desire for the occult itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimdealslover (talk • contribs) 13:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

spoiler?

I removed the spoiler tag since it didn't tell you nothing you wouldn't know even before playing the game.

Fair use rationale for Image:AITDscreenshot.gif

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BetacommandBot 23:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:AITDscreenshot.gif

Image:AITDscreenshot.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 13:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

RISC OS

This game was also released on RISC OS, and I've edited the article to reflect that. How do I know this? Well, I played it on my A3010! 81.159.187.161 (talk) 14:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Front full.jpg

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Source

• https://web.archive.org/web/20010813185340/http://www.nextgame.it/html/articolo.php?id=1718
• https://archive.org/details/gamelivepc043/page/n139
• https://archive.org/details/Pcmania02/page/n17
• https://archive.org/details/Game_Players_PC_Entertainment_Vol.6_No.2_March-April_1993_U/page/n69/mode/2up

Adding Interplay as the Distributor

I've noticed some talk on here about who is the distributor of the video game. We should clarify, Infogrames was the distributor only in Europe in the first run. It was not the distributor of this game in North America.

In North America, Infogrames started a joint venture with Interplay called I-Motion. It was a private company so I don't think we can ever know the full details, but from what I can find, I-Motion was wholly owned by Infogrames but they needed a management JV with Interplay to utilize Interplay's distribution outlets in NA in order to get the game onto shelves. I'm almost positive that other early Infogrames/I-Motion titles in NA also had a distribution imprint with Interplay (I'm thinking Shadow of the Comet in particular, in addition to the AITD trilogy, maybe also Time Gate).

I think the Distributor label for the first-run of the game should say Interplay for NA. Interplay let their distribution license expire probably as early as 1995 or 1996, however, after which Infogrames started distributing the game directly in NA. Then, as the note that is labeled with the "^" in the article references, THQ Nordic took over distribution after they purchased the IP from Atari back in 2018.

I think for the sake of the article, we should probably be more specific. Interplay was the first distributor, followed by Infogrames (whos name was updated to Atari after the reverse merger in 2008), and finally THQ Nordic in 2018. But I think the way the article is currently worded is misleading. If we wanted to keep it simple, we could say Infogrames (EU) and Interplay (NA). I think the standard process for these banners is to post the distributors upon the first run anyway, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montreux4 (talk • contribs) 21:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Alone in the Dark (1992 video game)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vrxces (talk · contribs) 07:23, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

Overall comments: Following a round of feedback, the page is in a state where I am confident it conforms with GA standards. The page is notably comprehensive in its source list and provides an adequate discussion of the game's content, development, reception and legacy for an encyclopedic standard.The nominator has done a great job in continuing to improve te back in response to feedback on content, phrasing and grammar. There are no known bias or attribution issues. The page should be adjusted to a GA. Vrxces (talk) 00:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions

• Headline
  • Initially released for the MS-DOS operating system... - the headline could be simplified by stating the game was "developed and published for MS-DOS in 1992, and ported to MacOS and the 3DO in 1994."

Changed.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • on top of two-dimensional backgrounds images - fix to "background".

Fixed.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • reimagining of the 1992 game - these are typically referred to as a remaster.

This isn't going to be a remaster a la the Pokémon Red and Blue example, but rather a grounds-up rebuild of the game, akin to something like the Resident Evil 4 remake. I think "reimagining" is a useful term to describe something like this.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Gameplay
  • What sort of puzzles are used in the game? Are they inventory-based puzzles to combine objects, or are the game's puzzles more complex, using information or mechanical puzzles?

They're kind of all over the place, but I suppose inventory-based is most appropriate. I'm not sure how best to describe them without an explicit source.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 20:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

• • Inventory is highly limited... - suggest adding 'The'.

Added.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ...attic and third floor, whose rooms are arranged... - suggest rephrasing to omit "whose", maybe "which are arranged"?

Grammatically, 'whose' is OK in these situations, despite what prescriptive textbooks often say.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • Available space in inventory - suggest rephrasing to "Space available in the inventory" or similar.

Done.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ..and each challenge must be overcome... - suggest rephrasing as the context of the paragraph does not make it clear what a 'challenge' is.

Done.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • partially non-linear - could detail that this means that the progression or goals in the game can be completed in a non-linear fashion, rather than the game itself is non-linear.

Changed to "Alone in the Dark has partially non-linear level design."--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Plot
  • I'm not sure what the convention is for the 'Cultural References' section outlining the influence of other works on the game. I know the inverse (MOS:CULTURALREFS) is frowned upon. One argument could be that the section is mere trivia. If so, it may be worth connecting this to the 'writing and animation' section and its discussion of the intent of the game to convey the themes of classic horror. Otherwise, it could be argued it provides prior context for this section and doesn't need to be touched.

I recognize that trivial lists are frowned upon. However, the game's connection to Lovecraft is often discussed in sourcing, so I think explicating that connection is beneficial to the reader.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Development
  • was struck by the concept - just a comment that I find the subtle pun funny.
  • (Other sources claim... - suggest removing brackets for this section as unnecessary.

Done.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ...in a 1920s mansion: Such an... - suggest changing to "mansion, as such".

Done.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • sequences that recall the aesthetics - this could be expanded slightly - what aesthetics were suggested to be evocative? If it means just general resemblance, using a pull quote could help.

I changed this to: "...a situation which the game's designers used to limit the player's field of view, thereby engendering an aura of 'apprehension and fear'."--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 20:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

• • A common misconception is that the game's backgrounds are devoid of 3D information. - sources haven't been used to establish there's a common misconception. It's not supported by the next cited source, which is the strategy guide. The "devoid of 3D information" is also awkward phrasing. Perhaps it would be better to omit, unless another source can be found.

The source reads "Many players imagine that the characters are 3-D, while the backgrounds are 2-D. Actually, behind each bitmapped image is a 3-D object." I feel like the text in the article is a faithful paraphrase of this. I changed the "devoid" part to "the game's backgrounds lack 3D information".--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Actually, yeah, I agree with you. I've just removed it. It doesn't really add that much.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 19:35, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

• • Citations for the Atari Jaguar CD/32X ports enter the territory of citation overkill.

I've bundled them.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • That the iOS port received "mixed to poor reviews" is not supported by citations, as only one review is cited.

Removed.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • You may want to insert a 'see also' template for reference to the remake.

Added.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Reception
  • I think the GameRankings rating should be omitted. The score is an aggregate of three reviews from minor adventure gaming fan blogs; the remaining sources the site cites are from 2006; one of them is a GameSpot article about the film adaptation, another an E3 preview of the 2008 remake.

Fair enough. I've removed it.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ...claimed had caused him "jump in fright..." - fix to "caused him to"

Fixed.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • References to Scorpia can be linked to Scorpia (journalist).

The link is already there.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ...screams instill the right mood' - fix ending parentheses

Fixed.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ...that can kill you without warning... - suggest rephrasing to avoid second-person tone.

Fixed.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• • In look-back at the game... - suggest rephrasing to "looking back" or "a retrospective".
  • The last paragraph seems slightly under-done compared to the others. It may be more useful to draw out the theme by noting reviewers identified several issues with gameplay mechanics, and providing more concrete pull quotes from sources about the issues that are listed.
  • ...have resulted in Alone in the Dark not holding up to modern standards. - The statement by IGN's Tom Chick that the game "hasn't aged well" is linked to a discussion of the visuals. The source is dated to 2000, so its assessment of "modern standards" may not be helpful to a reader.

I just removed this. I'll tinker with the entire paragraph here in a bit.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Legacy
  • There is a heavy use of citations to verify the list of sequels in the first paragraph - this strikes me as reasonably self-evident.

I'm always leery about sourceless strings of text in the body, no matter how self-evident, but I can see what you mean. As a compromise, I've added a source after each game, rather than bunching them all up at the end of the sentence so that it isn't so citation-heavy. How is that?--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 19:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

• • This section seems insubstantial in its current state given the game is a notable and influential work. The second paragraph is a missed opportunity to provide more detail on the cultural impact of the game in establishing the survival horror genre, particularly an assessment of mechanics that the game pioneered or popularised. The citations could better be used for pull quotes that describe this legacy in more detail.

@Vrxces: I've just now completed my first pass of this. I'll work on the sections that I did not respond to asap! In particular, I'll try to bulk up the criticisms and legacy sections; I'll also try to clarify a few things with handy pull quotes.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Update: I've expanded the legacy section to specifically mention a) the ways the game established many of the survival horror tropes and b) how it influenced Resident Evil. More to come!--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 17:42, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks - I will review shortly when I can. I appreciate your meticulous responses to the feedback. I'm a less experienced reviewer, so I can appreciate that some aspects of this feedback maybe have intermingled matters of personal preference or minutiae. So thanks for actioning a lot of these points; the article doesn't seem to be of the type that has any major barriers to GA assessment at this point. Vrxces (talk) 00:35, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Just a minor fix suggestion: Shinji Mikami discovered Alone in the Dark: Mikami believed - should the colon be a period? Vrxces (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Good catch. I'll patch that up.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 20:31, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Edge3 (talk) 15:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Infogrames hired Hubert Chardot to write the story of the game Alone in the Dark which he would outline in just three afternoons and write most of the game's dialogue? Source: Ichbiah, Daniel (2009). La Saga des Jeux Vidéo [The Video Game Saga] (in French) (New ed.). Triel-sur-Seine, France: Éditions Pix'n Love. ISBN 9782918272021. Retrieved 15 May 2023 – via The Internet Archive. Page 153-154
• ALT0a: ... that Infogrames hired Hubert Chardot to write the story of the game Alone in the Dark - which he would outline in just three afternoons - and write most of the game's dialogue? Source: Ichbiah, Daniel (2009). La Saga des Jeux Vidéo [The Video Game Saga] (in French) (New ed.). Triel-sur-Seine, France: Éditions Pix'n Love. ISBN 9782918272021. Retrieved 15 May 2023 – via The Internet Archive. Page 153-154
  • ALT1: ... that the decision to allude H. P. Lovecraft's creations rather than an directly adapting in to Alone in the Dark led to Chaosium removing Infrogames's Call of Cthulhu license? Source: Ichbiah, Daniel (2009). La Saga des Jeux Vidéo [The Video Game Saga] (in French) (New ed.). Triel-sur-Seine, France: Éditions Pix'n Love. ISBN 9782918272021. Retrieved 15 May 2023 – via The Internet Archive. Page 154
  • ALT1a: ... that the decision to allude to H. P. Lovecraft's creations, rather than directly adapting them, in Alone in the Dark led to Chaosium removing Infrogames's Call of Cthulhu license? Source: Ichbiah, Daniel (2009). La Saga des Jeux Vidéo [The Video Game Saga] (in French) (New ed.). Triel-sur-Seine, France: Éditions Pix'n Love. ISBN 9782918272021. Retrieved 15 May 2023 – via The Internet Archive. Page 154
  • ALT2: ... that despite Alone in the Dark being advertised as a game inspired by the work of H. P. Lovecraft, Raynal has admitted that the works of Argento and Romero were stronger influences? Source: Stobbart, Dawn (2019). Videogames and Horror: From Amnesia to Zombies, Run!. Cardiff, Wales: University of Wales Press. ISBN 9781786834386. Page 33 , Roux-Girard, Guillaume (2009). "Plunged Alone into Darkness: Evolution in the Staging of Fear in the Alone in the Dark Series". In Perron, Bernard (ed.). Horror Video Games: Essays on the Fusion of Fear and Play. Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company. pp. 145–167. ISBN 9780786454792. page 149
  • Reviewed: Antonio Cano
  • Comment: first of two qpqs.

Improved to Good Article status by Gen. Quon (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 23:26, 27 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Alone in the Dark (1992 video game); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Promoted 21 May, nominated 27 May, so OK. Each body para. sourced. Earwig and manual checks look OK. Interesting and very substantial article. ALT0 is OK (the short writing time is interesting), but phrasing leads me to suggest consideration of small changes as in ALT0a; ALT1 is solid for a point of interest but grammatically flawed - consider small changes as in ALT1a; and ALT2 is also of some interest, though not all will get the director references. @Onegreatjoke: Thanks, mostly sound, and a good read. But only Alt0/0a meet the length criterion - even allowing for piping, ALT1/1a and ALT2 just seem too long. Maybe they can be worked on a bit? Best of luck, happy to finish review if this one area of concern can be addressed, or to approve just ALT0/0a. SeoR (talk) 20:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@SeoR: What about this:

ALT0b: ... that the story for Infogrames' 1992 computer game Alone in the Dark was outlined by Hubert Chardot in just three days? Source: Ichbiah, Daniel (2009). La Saga des Jeux Vidéo [The Video Game Saga] (in French) (New ed.). Triel-sur-Seine, France: Éditions Pix'n Love. ISBN 9782918272021. Retrieved 15 May 2023 – via The Internet Archive. Page 153-154

Also, I apologize if I put this in the wrong spot.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 15:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that reads well. So, approving for Alt0b then. SeoR (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@SeoR and Gen. Quon: I can't seem to find it, but I thought we have a rule that says that a person without an article (in this case, Hubert Chardot) should not be named in the hook. If you'd like, I can ping other DYK editors to see if they're aware of such a rule. Edge3 (talk) 22:50, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@SeoR and Edge3: If that's the case, we could just cut the name and have the 'fun fact' be that the story was written in three days.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 14:59, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so we'll go with ALT0c: "... that the story for Infogrames' 1992 computer game Alone in the Dark was outlined in just three days?" Edge3 (talk) 15:22, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Poe and Alone in the Dark

For some reason, User:Gen. Quon has reverted the removal of clearly erroneous information from this article. I do not attest that this was done in bad faith, and I am also appreciative that they were looking for a compromise, but bad facts have no place on Wikipedia.

To recap, a single author, one Tom Garner, in his book Echoes of Other Worlds: Sound in Virtual Reality asserts in passing that "the Usher homestead has been directly attributed to the design of Derceto, the haunted mansion of the original Alone in the Dark (Raynal 1992)." This rather shocking statement is made without citation (the reference to Raynal 1992 is to the game itself and not to a source that backs up this claim).

Why is this claim shocking? Because no member of the development team has ever cited Poe generally nor The Fall of the House of User specifically as sources of inspiration for anything in Alone in the Dark. Raynal has always been upfront that 1970s horror cinema from Romero to Argento is his primary inspiration for everything in the game. He also specifically cited The Amityville Horror in his 2012 GDC postmortem, so that seems a fair source for the haunted house trope that Poe helped originate but certainly has no monopoly on. The game's writer, Hubert Chardot, drew on a wider variety of sources, most notably Lovecraft, but when it comes to the house and the player's progression from attic to basement, he cites Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho as his influence. So we have two movies featuring creepy old houses called out by name by the developers, while Poe is conspicuously absent.

And this gets even sillier when one actually bothers to read The Fall of the House of Usher. Poe, not one for long descriptions, describes the house and its ground thusly:

"I looked upon the scene before me — upon the mere house, and the simple landscape features of the domain — upon the bleak walls — upon the vacant eye-like windows — upon a few rank sedges — and upon a few white trunks of decayed trees — with an utter depression of soul which I can compare to no earthly sensation more properly than to the after-dream of the reveller upon opium"

He further describes it sitting at the base of a lake and having to cross a bridge to enter the grounds.

Upon arrival, the protagonist states: "The room in which I found myself was very large and lofty. The windows were long, narrow, and pointed, and at so vast a distance from the black oaken floor as to be altogether inaccessible from within. Feeble gleams of encrimsoned light made their way through the trellissed panes, and served to render sufficiently distinct the more prominent objects around; the eye, however, struggled in vain to reach the remoter angles of the chamber, or the recesses of the vaulted and fretted ceiling. Dark draperies hung upon the walls."

The house in Alone in the Dark is nothing like this. There is no lake, there is no bridge, and the foliage, including many trees, is dense and green. There are no pointed (presumably Gothic) windows, there is no vaulted and fretted ceiling, there is no oak floor, and the chamber the player enters into is not large. How anyone can conclude that the Usher homestead contributed to the design of Derceto is beyond me.

So yeah, this is really not a thing. Garvin writes about audio in games, with a particular focus on virtual reality. He is not an expert on 1990s computer games, survival horror, Gothic literature, or Edgar Allen Poe. He provides no citation for his claim that anyone "attributed" the design of Derceto to the Usher homestead. The developers have never mentioned Poe despite giving numerous interviews where they have cited their influences. And both the creator of the game and the writer have directly discussed two creepy houses that influenced their design decisions. There is no rational basis for leaving this fact in the article. Not every fact found in a monograph, even a scholarly one, is correct. Indrian (talk) 06:41, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

What can I say? Wikipedia is citational. I found a monograph that made a claim, so I added it. While your points might be true, I feel like this (especially your claim "Not every fact found in a monograph, even a scholarly one, is correct") veers into original research territory. @Vrxces: As the GA reviewer, do you have any thoughts? At the end of the day, it's such a minor claim that I'm not adamant that it needs to remain in the article, but I also don't like the OR-y vibe here.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 16:06, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the OR policy. That policy governs additions to an article not backed by sources. It has nothing to do with evaluating a source to determine whether it is reliable for the facts asserted and thus suitable for inclusion in an article. Your opinion that untrue information can be added to an article merely with the defense “somebody claimed it once” is baffling to me. Sure, this one little fact on one 30-year-old game hardly matters, but in the bigger picture this is exactly how conspiracy theories and disinformation spreads. Being cavalier about facts is never a good idea.

You might want to brush up on Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, which actually provides guidance on this and is clear that otherwise reliable sources can be determined to not be reliable for information mentioned in passing outside of the core competencies of the work, which applies here. The source is about the use of audio in virtual worlds, not the influences of 1990s video games. Indrian (talk) 16:36, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Indrian, I kindly ask you to cut the condescension; I also object to your claim that I was being "cavalier about facts". My point was simply that your arguments might veer into OR territory, given that you are attempting to rebut sourced material with your own understanding of the media. Either way, whether we include this fact or not seems less an RS question and more of a "passing mention" issue. I'm fine if we leave it out, but I do find the hyperbole unnecessary.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 22:59, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Editors have an inherent evaluative role in assessing the reliability and use case of sources, and that doesn't fall in the scope of WP:OR. However, I agree the level of extraneous analysis to get to that point is a bit much. I think this can be more simply resolved on the basis of verifiability. Beyond assessing reliability, the text makes a statement that isn't corroborated by other primary or reliable secondary sources, is passive ("has been directly attributed") and does not provide context to the claim. I think you made a valid decision to preserve this source with the revert absent the discussion here, but agree there's merit to removing the statement if nothing else can be found. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

That seems fair. Like I said, I'm not hellbent on keeping it, so if that's the consensus, that's cool.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 05:12, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it doesn't strike me as a big deal, I can see how someone might draw parallels, but it's an understandable correction. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 07:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)