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Talk:Herero and Nama genocide

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dan Palraz (talk | contribs) at 16:37, 28 January 2024 (Dan Palraz moved page Talk:Herero and Namaqua genocide to Talk:Herero and Nama genocide: As per discussion page, unless anyone opposes the move). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Contemporary opposition in Germany

The page does not mention opposition to the genocide while it occured in Germany itself - there is a good academic article covering opposition in the parliament but I don't have it on me at the moment. Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you dig this source out I could try to include it into the page, at least in a short sentence or two on the public reaction. I know that the edict of Throta was sacked early december by Wilhelm, due to political pressure from Bülow and others, but I do not have the sources at hand to document the process. ASchudak (talk) 08:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot find the precise article I remembered, but while looking for it I found The Talk of Genocide, the Rhetoric of Miscegenation: Notes on Debates in the German Reichstag Concerning Southwest Africa, 1904-14 in the book The Imperialist Imagination: German Colonialism and Its Legacy, which discusses the parliamentary debates in detail.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The San genocide?

The introduction mentions the San as victims for the genocide, but this is not covered in the text nor is there any source given. Are there any reliable sources that confirm that the San were also persecuted like the Herero and Nama? If not, we should remove the reference. If there are sources I am willing to include them into the page, otherwise I will remove that part in around two weeks. ASchudak (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed - I found no source that referenced any genocidal treatment of the San by the Germans. The general statement in the article referred to "Herero, Nama and San", and was given seven references. One it known to me, some of the other were available online. I have not read these fully, but as far as my research goes, they cover the Herero and Nama, but there is nothing on the San. If San are mentioned at all, it is their treatment by the immigrating Herero in the century before, and that is not part of this article. So I removed the reference to a "San genocide" and would ask you to offer specific references to the San in reliable sources if you want this in the article. Thanks! ASchudak (talk) 07:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Researching Johannes Kruger I actually found a reference to a "San genocide" committed by Germany: Gordon, Robert J. (2009) "Hiding in Full View: The “Forgotten” Bushman Genocide - https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol4/iss1/4/
That, however, covers the era from 1912 to 1915, so is not part of this article. ASchudak (talk) 12:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rape accusations vs. soldiers

I already brought this up here in 2019, asking for sources. The article said "... German soldiers regularly raped young Herero women before killing them or letting them die in the desert." I removed that passage due to an insufficient source.

The given source is a tertiary, the "Dictionary of Genocide". The actual passage referenced there (p272) says indeed: "... during the course of the 1904 German-perpetrated genocide of the Hereros, German soldiers regularly raped (and gang-raped) young Herero women before either killing them or leaving them do die in the desert of thirst, starvation and wounds. " - so it claims regular mass gang-rapes. As there is no other work on the genocide that supports that claim, I looked for the sources given in the dictionary.

It has no direct references for the statement, but regarding the Herero genocide the dictionary gives us (just) two regular sources in the appendix. The first is a book of Jon Bridgman, "The Revolt of the Hereros" of 1981, the other is an article of Jon Bridgman of 2008, "The genocide of the Hereros". With no other sources, the claim should be based there.

The 1981 book was available online and containes the word "rape" but once, in connection to the Dietrich case that is already covered in the article. There is no other refernence that I found in that book to rapes by soldiers.

The article of 2008 lacks any usage of the word "rape" and has also no content that supports the claim of the dictionary.

It has, however, an appendix, where extracts from the Blue Book are collected - statements collected by the British in 1918 with the explicite goal of showing that Germany is unfit to colonial rule and to justify a Mandate rule.

One of these statements on p43 of the article cites "Johannes Kruger, Chief of the Bushmen" with the following: "Often, and especially at Waterberg, the young Herero women and girls were violated by the German soldiers before being killed. Two of my Hottentots, Jan Wint and David Swartboi ... were invited by the German soldiers to join in violating Herero girls." Johannes Kruger has been acknowledge in 1895 by Leutwein as chieftain and had already claimed rapes by German settlers before 1904 to Volkmann. He was most likely not at Waterberg himself. The reliability of the Blue Book aside, it is kind of questionable that German soldiers invited Hottentots to participate in gang-rapes, or that this happened on a "regular" base even when we believe this single incidence. The Nama went to war with the Germans practically on the same day that Trothas extermination order was declared (if for slightly other reasons), so any such claim to "regular" behaviour is dubious at best.

Just note that the testaments given in the Blue Book contain both accusations of German soldiers killing civilians under the extermination order and many references to sexual exploitation by officials during the containment of females in concentration camps later. There is no other references to rapes in the field.

None of the works covering the genocide apart from the dictionary puts up that claim, so I decided, for now, to remove this particular statement. If you find one, I will not object if you add it again. Comments and critics welcome. ASchudak (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New research about the herero escape

Reading some publications such as: hans hilpisch "wo sind die herero geblieben?" 2019 - 2021 And rainer tröndle "gewisse ungewissheiten" 2012 , i came a cross some evidence that suggest that it can hardly be called a genocide. Such as: new estimates about the number of herero at the waterberg (12.000-15.000) and the number of herero overall (35000) and the geographical attributes given in the omaheke desert, namely that there is some water, the germans just didnt know about. According to the interpretation the herero escaped to british botswana or returned to their lands, while the germans in an attempt to whitewash their failure declared the desert closed off and threatened all herero that returned with death. As proof of the failure of this plan a blockade of a 250km desertstrip with approx. 1500 soldiers is declared as impossible. Also the timing of the escape and the order (around 2 weeks apart) is seen as evidence for its lack of real life value and as proof of the theatrics. The blue book of the british that lists german attrocities is cited as propaganda to reject the german vlaim to south west africa.

All un all it seems sound to me. 197.233.137.241 (talk) 11:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move proposal: "Herero and Namaqua genocide" to "Herero and Nama genocide"

As the Nama people are best known as Nama than "Namaqua"; as the Nama people call themselves "Nama"; and as the German declaration addressing the genocide also refers to them as "Nama", never as "Namaqua" (https://www.dngev.de/images/stories/Startseite/joint-declaration_2021-05.pdf), I propose moving this article, from "Herero and Namaqua genocide" to "Herero and Nama genocide". Would anyone have a reason to oppose such a move? Thank you. Dan Palraz (talk) 11:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: At the time of the genocide, "Namaqua" was quite common in written sources, all of which of course originated from colonial people. Today, all outsiders call the tribe Nama people, and the insiders call themselves Khoikhoin. As khoikhoin is not English but Khoekhoe language, "Nama" might be the logical choice. --Pgallert (talk) 18:08, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Greenman (talk) 07:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Makes sense for it to be "Nama" over "Namaqua". XTheBedrockX (talk) 16:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Per WP:NAMECHANGES, the new title is appropriate. XxTechnicianxX (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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