Talk:Baba Tahir

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Baba Tahir. Hello. I just want to make sure that Baba TAhir is NOT persian, he is KURDISH and th ehistory proves it.

His poems can be understood by Persian, Lak, Lur, most Kurdish dialect speakers. They are referred to as Fahlaviyat (middle Persian dialects). --alidoostzadeh 17:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly there is a story about Baba Tahir where he wakes up and suddenly can speak arabic. He says: "Last night I was a Kurd and this morning I have become an Arab."

Secondly, it is true that he wrote in both Kurdish (of the Laki dialect), Luri and Persian. However the article states that Baba Tahir Himself was a Persian. Also, some of the poems cited are also in Kurdish, although only reference to the persian language is mentioned!

Persian here means with nationality of Persia. Iran was called Persia by European countries till 1935. Now Persia is more used to call the country historically in English.Pouyakhani (talk) 03:44, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gurani and Leki not Kelhuri!!!!!

FYI, Baba Taher was follower of Yarsan that is the religion of Guran and Lak kurds. I don't know how do you say that his poets are in Kelhuri!!! His poems are cited in Gurani, laki Kurdish, and Luri and Persian!--Lekistan (talk) 13:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Baba Taher" -Llc - 395
"Baba Tahir" -Llc - 1420

Takabeg (talk) 23:08, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Removed two non-RS sources.. Thank you--96.255.251.165 (talk) 03:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of fringe stuff were removed.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.251.165 (talk) 04:31, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only one there I can say might be ok is the Kurdish Academy of Languages, but I'm not sure about that one either. We seem to use it quite a bit as people from there are editing here. Dougweller (talk) 07:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that source (besides its poor English) was the claim that Avesta was old Kurdish and lots of nationalist cruft....
Based on a good professional authority:"the extant Kurdish texts may be traced back to no earlier than the 16th century CE For the study of the evolution of Kurdish"[1]. In actuality the word "Kurdish" in this article is anachronism. --96.255.251.165 (talk) 10:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Iranica has a good article on Baba Tahir: [2]--96.255.251.165 (talk) 10:28, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, Iranica always has the best. He can be Persian but not Kurd (: There was a table of words from poems of Baba Tahir, why did you delete it? People could see the similarity of Baba Tahir's language with Persian and Kurdish. If you have problem about pronaunciation. You could correct it, not delete!--Gomada (talk) 22:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Iranica is an academic source and in general, any decent western book I have read considers Kurdish literature to be from 15th/16th century. About the list. Because it was made up..For example it mentions Luri: dust dare and the Persian: dust dared. Where as "Dared" is the written language not the spoken language. Also Baba Taher does not use "ez" (for first person I) in any of his poems. He doesn't use Bisheh (for go) but biri which is still used in Tati of Azerbaijan. "Eshmerdan" to count is used in the Hamadani Persian dialect still all the way up to Arak.. "mu" for I is used in Shirazi Persian dialect. Also all of this depends on the manuscript variants which are hundreds of them. A table cannot be made without identifying which manuscript! Again I am concerned about WP:RS sources here. We cannot let amateur websites into wikipedia. I don't have a problem with x or y being this or that, but the websites that were brought were highly non-academic. --96.255.251.165 (talk) 00:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Eshmerdan and biri and bire are exist in Kurdish dialect and languages too. So what? Is this a reason to delete table? By the way, the Baba Tahir's poems are understandable in Kurdish languages. But there is no claim. He is an important person for Yarsan Kurds and when you know Yarsan culture, they have a story about Baba Tahir :"Last night I was a Kurd and this morning I have become an Arab." We cant deny people's culture.--Gomada (talk) 17:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Same ip as above..my ip changed. The statement "last night I was a Kurd and this morning I have become an Arab" is not in the Yarsan books about Baba Tahir. The Yarsan Books actually attribute Gurani literature to him and has its own story with bibi fatima (Baba Tahir's sister and Shah Khushin). The statement " last night I was a Kurd and this morning I have become an Arab" is a famous Islamic statement which is actually in Arabic "Amasaitu Kurdiyan wa-asbahtu 'Arabiyan".. It is not literal as Baba Tahir did not become "Arab". Rather it is a statement used by various Islamic mystics to denote that they had a over-night mystical transformation and became learned in all the knowledges, since Arabic was the language of religious sciences. Although I do suspect Baba Tahir was Kurdish in the classical sense of the word (which I have mentioned in the Ardashir I) I am myself of Yarsan from Mazandaran..I know the literature well enough. The statement attributed to Baba Tahir is in Arabic: "Amasaitu Kurdiyan wa-asbahtu 'Arabiyan". This statement is attributed to various mystics in Islamic history. Jami I have no problem with a chart if it is WP:RS.

However, there were problems with the chart as I mentioned as it does not consider various dialects of Persian/Luri. Also the chard has the wrong information.

"ez" (as a first person I) is not used by Baba Tahir..so that rules out Kurmanji or Talyshi and most Tati dialects.
"bûşim" or perhaps "busham" mean "to be" which is just dialectic pronounciation of modern Persian "basham".
You have "vaxwred" (where is in Baba Tahir's poem) and then put the Persian "aşamîd" (which means to drink/suck). Where-as Persian it is Xword.
neçîrevan you have as hunter..where does Baba Tahir use that word? Shekarchi is a Persian+Turkish compound. But Persian Naxchirvan means hunter as well [3].
There is one "ویش" (vish) which in literally Persian is Khwish. However, in Persian dialects (again say around Hamadan) it is similar.

And I believe lines like these are definitely closer to Persian/Luri than say Kurmanji:

نشینم که تا عمرم بر سر آیو

به گلشن بی تو گل هرگز مرویا

لوش از خون دل هرگز مشویا

شدم خار و خس کوه محبت

ز دست دل که یارب غرق خون بی

مو آن بحرم که در ظرف آمدستم

Or this line: اگر دستم فتی خونت وریژم which you had translated as:

Eger bikevî destê min, xwîna te verijînim

But all the words are understandable in Persian except in "rizham" which is used in Persian dialects (see Baha al-Din al- Walads Ma'arif) but it is standard Persian "berizam".

Or this famous one:

ز دست دیده و دل هر دو فریاد که هر چه دیده وینه دل کنه یاد بسازم خنجری نیشش ز پولاد زنم بر دیده تا دل گرده آزاد

So in this version "ze" is used (and never Baba Tahir has used "lah") but possibly "azh". Overall, I think the closest dialect is actually that spoken in Hamadan today.

His dialect is also extremly close to Tabari in on some instances..

Given all this..I am just going to change him from Persian literature to Iranian literature since Baba Tahir is understandable in many Iranian dialects and proves my point that we simply have Iranian speakers who speak remnants of Middle Persian/Parthian dialects and they cannot be grouped into distinct groups because it is simply a continous transition. --108.18.145.11 (talk) 04:39, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dear IP-person, i dont understand.You just try to improve that, his poems are understandable in Persian too. Ok, who is againist that? Thats normal, these are iranian languages. So, there will be always connection. You have already written that, his poetry is Persian. Where is the mention for Kurdish? if you are so neutral. Why dont i still see any mention about Kurdish in his article?--Gomada (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can discern no one knows exactly how to classify his poetry exactly. However, based on the article Kurdish literature in Encyclopaedia Iranica, I do not see any mention of Baba Tahir. Please add any RS source though..I am not against RS sources.--108.18.145.11 (talk) 03:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources 2