Talk:Incel

"Often white" is inappropriate in the lede of this article.

You could say the same thing for virtually any large group. But we don't. We don't say that doctors or ballet dancers or geeks are "often white," even though it's assuredly true.

It's a weasel phrase. "Often white" - what does that even mean? What numerical threshold does a group have to cross to be considered "often white"? About 17% of professional basketball players are white - are professional basketball players "often white"?

And the sources cited don't particulary support the assertion. For example, source 23 from the Anti-Defamation League, "Online Poll Results Provide New Insights into Incel Community," says the following:

While roughly 55 percent of respondents identify as white or Caucasian, the remaining 45 percent of are equally divided among a range of ethnic and racial groups, including Black, Latino, Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern or Other/Not Sure.

Is 55% "often white"? Well, maybe - it's a weasel phrase - but considering that 81% of incels are from North America and Europe, white men actually appear to be *underrepresented* among incels, compared to the general population.

It would only be appropriate to say "often white" if the community was specifically about whiteness in some way - and no sources make any kind of case for that. It's baffling that anyone thought it was appropriate to put in the article.

The actual body of the article goes into detail about the nuances of race in the incel community. It isn't appropriate for the lede. KarakasaObake (talk) 18:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The inline source used for that claim goes into significant detail about how the community is "specifically about whiteness"--see section "4.2. Abduction and ethnic identity". I think the discussion of whether this belongs in the lede is fair, but I don't think it's so cut-and-dry that it should be removed beforehand. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no section 4.2 in the article.

There is, however, a section 2.3, which includes the text "and, among non-white incels, the "just be white" (JBW) theory, which suggests that Caucasians face the fewest obstacles to relationships and sex," explicitly refuting the idea that the community is "specifically about whiteness." KarakasaObake (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Not sure which article you're talking about, but I'm talking about this one, which has a 4.2 as I described. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I thought you were referring to the Wikipedia page itself. But the source you're referencing also explicitly refutes that the community is "specifically about whiteness." From the source:

"data suggest their orientation towards race and ethnicity is complex. Some incels advocate White nationalism, others discuss White privilege and intersectionality, while others still argue that incel-status trumps all other forms of identification"

"incels have (surprisingly) multifaceted discussions of race, ranging from support for White nationalism to critiques of White privilege. While social psychological theories predict that race/ethnic identity should operate as the more salient group identity in this context, we document instances where the opposite is true and incels assert the primacy of their incel identity"

And, again, you could say the exact same for doctors or ballet dancers or geeks: some advocate White nationalism, some discuss White privilege and intersectionality, and some are uninterested in racial identification. KarakasaObake (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but doctors don't, as a whole, discuss their race as an inherent part of their being doctors. That paper shows that (presumably) an absolute majority of incels are white, and that self-definition as either white or less-than-white and is a strong trend in incel communities, which is not true of doctors or ballet dancers, so I don't think that's an apt comparison. Yes, the paper does also show that there is a current of inceldom-trumps-ethnicity, but I don't think that goes a long way towards saying that race is irrelevant to the topic. And that's just one source; there are three others in the inline citations to that statement. "Assessing the threat of incel violence" talks about The white supremacist discourse pervasive on incel forums. The WaPo article goes out of its way to say that What makes the incel culture different is that these are primarily heterosexual white men.... The NBC article talks about how “They’re young, frustrated white males in their late teens into their early twenties who are having a hard time adjusting to adulthood. They’re the same kinds of people you find in white supremacy writ large,” Beirich said. “They have grievances about the world they’ve placed onto women and black people.“ If these sources think it's relevant, I don't know why we wouldn't too. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:33, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Incels also don't, as a whole, discuss their race as an inherent part of their being incels. Some do; most don't.

The only academic source we have on the issue is the one we've been discussing: Halpin and Richard's "An invitation to analytic abduction." They actually examined the community and said they were "surprised" by the multifaceted discussions of race taking place there.

Frankly, that is a far better source than WaPo and NBC. And Halpin and Richard specifically discuss how the popular media is misreporting incels:

"Using abduction, we've highlighted surprising findings: not only do incels discuss White privilege and intersectionality, but some members situate “incel” as a master status that unifies men across racial and ethnic groups. This finding reveals that incels are more heterogenous than reported, particularly in the popular media..." KarakasaObake (talk) 19:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

"some" =/= "most". "most don't" is unsupported by the current sources. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:43, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

"Most do" is also unsupported by the sources. The sources do say that about 55% of incels are white, so in order for "most" incels to be discussing whiteness as an inherent part of being incels, about 91% of white incels would need to be doing that. There is no claim in any source that this is the reality. KarakasaObake (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed (except for the wholly arbitrary 91% threshold), but the sentence in question didn't say "mostly white", it said "often white", which, given the information in the sources, is not realistically disputable. We have thre or four reliable sources that say that race is a relevant subject w/r/t incels, and one reliable source that says it's sometimes relevant and sometimes not, not being definitive either way--that sounds like a convincing reason to keep the sentence to me. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:28, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The 91% figure isn't "wholly arbitrary", it's basic math. If 55% of incels are white, then for "most" incels to be discussing whiteness, then 91% of those 55% would be discussing it, that is: $0.91\times 0.55\approx 50.1\%$. ~Anachronist (talk) 12:04, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Injecting unwarranted race hatred against White people, based on an isolated reference in the article look like a subtle hate crime. Please remove that isolated reference in the article, which is unsubstantiated by other quality and diverse references. Now, incel as "unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one" can happen anywhere, any place. Because of studies in white or European ethnicity groups and relative lack of such studies elsewhere is no reason to peddle hate here. 173.72.54.107 (talk) 18:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

How does 'they are described as' count as something factual? I can describe the Presidents of the US as as reptilian aliens from Alpha Centauri, so can I then factually include it on the Wikipedia article as factual? It is 'factually' based on assumption, and even worse, as you noted, to the exclusion of studies that contradict it. 193.119.44.239 (talk) 06:36, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

If you can get that published in reliable sources and journals, perhaps we can talk. I'm not sure which sources you're referring to as being excluded. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:52, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree. It's inappropriate and should be removed. Commemorative1 (talk) 08:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. The claim is based on research done in the United States of America by the study of a limited group of people which, for obvious reasons, does not include all U.S. incels. Incidentally, the phenomenon is also present in other regions of the world. It makes no sense to include this globally inaccurate information in the lead. 37.0.81.237 (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

If you could provide reliable sources backing up those claims, it would be very helpful. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

There's a sizeable Japanese incel demographic in Japan, with east asian countries having incel terrorism like the US. I think it's pretty anglo-centric to have often white in the lede. commemorative (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC) commemorative (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello, I come here from the incels.is article. I am creating a discussion following WP:PM, since a merger was decided in the AfD as consensus but the merge instructions were unclear and most importantly I have substantially contributed to the other article after consensus to merge was established, so a merge might not be necessary anymore. (The AfD merge close banner says to discuss the merge on talk page, but I also decided to open WP:PAM based on WP:CCC after substantial article growth.)

Per point 3 of WP:PAM (merge discussion process)

Mergers that are controversial, potentially difficult to carry out, or where at least one is either rated Class B or higher or is over 100K in size will need assistance from uninvolved editor(s) in determining whether to merge the pages.

2001:48F8:3004:FC4:48EA:35CE:A536:B342 (talk) 20:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Closing the loop to note that the IP here has discovered that WP:DRV is the place to challenge the outcome of an AfD: Wikipedia:Deletion review#Incels.is. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What about autistic people?

Whoever is writing all of this is extremely prejudiced against autistic people, people with social anxiety, and otherwise socially awkward people. This article is blatantly insulting to innocent people and it has no right to exist on Wikipedia or anywhere. I DEMAND THAT YOU CEASE AND APOLOGIZE!!! 37.0.88.17 (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

What about autistic people? This article has very little to do with them. They're mentioned in passing in the Mental health section, in the context of saying that some members of the incel subculture are autistic, but it says nothing about autistic people as a whole. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:33, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

• Personally, I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that autistic people are incels. GMG^talk 14:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

🙄 Roxwye (talk) 18:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Clarification of multiple definitions

I think that this article should make note of the fact that "incel" can refer to a life circumstance as well as a subculture, and provide information about both definitions. 205.189.94.8 (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Manofthewater (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Vanessaamartinez.

— Assignment last updated by Vanessaamartinez (talk) 21:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Reference idea: "Intervening in Problematic Research Approaches to Incel Violence"

There is a recent reference resource that could help the section on Incel#Of reporting and research. It's called "Intervening in Problematic Research Approaches to Incel Violence" [1]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1097184X231200825

It is, however, restricted access for the time being and so I'm not sure if it could be used for the article. (But the pdf of the article was sent to User:GorillaWarfare who would know the Wikipedia policy.)

Thebetoof (talk) 08:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Thebetoof: I've stuck it in the ref ideas template at the top of the page. I don't have a moment to read through it and incorporate it, but perhaps someone else will. As for the paywall, that's no problem: WP:PAYWALL. I believe this source should be accessible through The Wikipedia Library. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:22, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 November 2023

Change this:

the term rose to prominence in the 2010s as it became _closer_ associated with an online subculture

to this:

the term rose to prominence in the 2010s as it became _more closely_ associated with an online subculture Roxwye (talk) 20:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 08:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Incel history

https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/democratic-theory/10/2/dt100207.xml?ArticleBodyColorStyles=pdf-4278

This article would help expand upon the history of the forums and how "incel" evolved over time.

Thebetoof (talk) 05:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

What is defined as an "incel attack?"

Nicholas Cruz isn't an incel he had a girlfriend Octalh (talk) 16:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Contested edit

@JusticeAccount3: Regarding this revert, can you please clarify what in that source supports that that individual "worshipped" Elliot Rodger? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:19, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

maybe I should've said "supported"

why is it such a big deal for you? JusticeAccount3 (talk) 17:01, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Because your source didn't support the statement, and we require all claims in Wikipedia articles be verifiable. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 17:50, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I swapped in a better source and changed to "praised" per the source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 17:50, 6 February 2024 (UTC)