Talk:Demographics of North Macedonia

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Macedonian Muslims & Turks

Macedonians: 1,297,981 or 64.17%. (This also includes Macedonian Muslims 5.86%).
Turks: 77,959 or 3.85%.

The largest concentration of Macedonian Muslims can be found in Western Macedonia and Eastern Albania. The Centar Župa Municipality is populated by a large number of Macedonian Muslims although for personal reasons most of the population chooses to identify as Turks. Most of the villages in the Centar Župa and Debar regions are populated by Macedonian Muslims. The Struga municipality also holds a large number of Macedonian Muslims who are primarily concentrated in the large village of Labuništa. Further North in the Debar region many of the surrounding villages are inhabited by Macedonian Muslims. The Dolna Reka region is also primarily populated by Macedonian Muslims. They form the remainder of the population which emigrated to Turkey in the 1950's and 1960's.

When the Socialist Republic of Macedonia was established in 1944, the Yugoslav government encouraged the Macedonian Muslims to adopt an ethnic Macedonian identity.

Some Turkish ethnologists have claimed that the Macedonian Muslims are in fact Slavicized Turks, although this interpretation is not widely supported.[8] The Macedonian writer Jakim Sinadinovski has similarly claimed that the Macedonian Muslims are not, in fact, Slavic Macedonians; this prompted a strong reaction when his thesis was first published in 1988.[9]

In the article about Macedonian Muslims we are informed that most Macedonian Muslims choose to identify themselves as Turks. If that's true then why are they counted as Macedonians? If they identify themselves as Turks and are counted as Turks then Turks in Macedonia would be 9.71% of the population instead of 3.85%. Do they speak Turkish? How do you decide who is actually a Turk and who only claims to be one? By the way most Turks in the Balkan (even in Turkey) are not genetically/ethnically Turks. So what proof is there that these Macedonian Muslims are any less Turks than those of Turkey or the Macedonian Turks? They clearly felt Turkish enough to emigrate en masse to Turkey in the 1950's and 1960's. What difference is there between one brother who decided to emigrate to Turkey and who is a Turk now and the other brother who decided to stay in Macedonia and is denied his right of self identification as a Turk? Whether these Macedonian Muslims are actually Turks or Macedonians doesn't really matter, if they identify themselves as Turks then they are Turks. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 13 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved: per others (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:38, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics of the Republic of Macedonia → Demographics of North Macedonia – Apparently that's the name of the country now. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 09:46, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support movement of all former "Republic of Macedonia" pages to "North Macedonia" equivalents, as formal name change has now been implemented. Smith(talk)
Go ahead. I've done so many as it is without consensus as I really am not expecting negative feedback later down the line. Of course, I'm happy to stop if someone should alert me that the bold changes remain questionable. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 13:32, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

190 22ents

Does anyone know what '190 22ents' could mean, or at least what someone may have tried to say by this? "...In the school year 2016/2017 there were 190 22ents from which..." ArbDardh (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh[reply]

It probably means 190 thousand students. Nonetheless I'm not seeing a source for that information so we may be best off removing it entirely. --Local hero ^talk 03:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.Resnjari (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atheism in North Macedonia

The reference shows that 0 48% of the population is atheist so it should be changed to reflect that for the religios population of North Macedonia. MkCreeper (talk) 23:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Local hero ^talk 23:14, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

adjective used for the Nationality

Antondimak Sorry for bothering you. One of my edits was reverted and you were involved.

The wikipedia community has agreed on some naming conventions WP:NCMAC, based on which the nationality is either Macedonian or North Macedonian.

In particular, WP:NCMAC reports: "The nationality of citizens of North Macedonia should still be referred to as "Macedonian."", however, "In contexts where ambiguity with Macedonian ethnicity might be an issue, more explicit forms or explanatory text may be used (e.g. XYZ possesses both Australian and North Macedonian citizenship, or ethnic Macedonians who are not citizens of North Macedonia)."

A few days ago I added a reference ^[1] to provide evidence about the opinion of Matthew Nimetz (a Prespa Agreement signatory member from United Nations) who wrote a paper published by Cambridge University Press. The opinion of Matthew Nimetz is certainly a reliable source and should be part of encyclopedia.

The noun for the nationality is Macedonian/citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia. However, the adjective for the nationality is not determined by any document, and Matthew Nimetz confirms that the special formulation "of North Macedonia" used in the Prespa Agreement applies solely to official usage, and what people use in unofficial context is a matter of ordinary use of language. Therefore, there is nothing that makes North Macedonian nationality an incorrect terminology, and the decision of the wikipedia community is that North Macedonian is a valid term for the nationality of people too. Although we should prefer Macedonian when possible, North Macedonian is still a correct adjective for the nationality of people. Another important aspect is that a large number of reliable sources call the people North Macedonians.

Since both Macedonian and North Macedonian are correct adjectives for the nationality of people according to the wikipedia community WP:NCMAC, reliable sources, Matthew Nimetz (United Nations), and the Prespa Agreement (which leaves it open), is there any reason that we should not report both Macedonian and North Macedonian as an option for the adjective in this specific page? Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας 18:25, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας I agree. I just restored the old version when a user who disagreed with you, accidentally (?), also removed the other form ("of North Macedonia") completely. --Antondimak (talk) 19:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Antondimak Thanks. Okay then, since you agree, I will add North Macedonian as an adjective for the nationality based on the above reasons. I will wait a few days to see if anybody has some valid point against it.Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

Matthew Nimetz doesn't decide what the adjective for nationality is. The article uses the exact wording from the Prespa agreement, no further changes needed, thanks. --Local hero ^talk 22:37, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Local hero Thanks for your comment. I agree, neither Matthew Mimetz nor the Prespa agreement decide.

WP:MOSMAC states: This agreement (Prespa), while clearly an important step towards ending the Macedonia naming dispute, does not represent any legal obligation on the Wikipedia community. Any deference made to its provisions comes as a result of consensus to respect a specific convention. Wikipedia's policies still take precedence over the document as a whole..

The reason I propose adding both Macedonian and North Macedonian as an adjective for the nationality is the decision of the wikipedia community WP:MOSMAC that says both adjectives are valid. Do you have any valid objection to the decision of the wikipedia community?Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

The nationality of citizens of North Macedonia should still be referred to as "Macedonian." "North Macedonian" is not used on Wikipedia to describe nationality of an individual, except in some rare circumstances that I have yet to encounter. --Local hero ^talk 16:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do these circumstances exist? If so the other term should probably also be added as a secondary option. --Antondimak (talk) 20:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Local hero I will repeat here what WP:MOSMAC states about the nationality: "The nationality of citizens of North Macedonia should still be referred to as "Macedonian.", however, "In contexts where ambiguity with Macedonian ethnicity might be an issue, more explicit forms or explanatory text may be used (e.g. XYZ possesses both Australian and North Macedonian citizenship, or ethnic Macedonians who are not citizens of North Macedonia)."

Local hero There exist situations where North Macedonian is the proper adjective according to the decisions of our community WP:MOSMAC. What is the reason you want to hide it from the wikipedia readers?Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

If you wish to change anything about WP:MOSMAC, please start the discussion there. Note that the verbiage you cite from the policy is described as "explanatory text". In the meantime, individuals from this country are referred to as "Macedonian" on Wikipedia. See Demographics of South Korea and Demographics of North Korea; the nationality for each is simply "Korean". There is no additional nationality given for cases of "ambiguity". In any case, no other country has a Macedonian nationality. --Local hero ^talk 20:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to change any WP:MOSMAC decision. I simply want to implement the decisions of our community. It's not about ambiguity in this case. You look confused due to your obsession on another page Doiran Lake. In this case, we should just present the whole truth based on WP:MOSMAC that says North Macedonian is an option for the nationality even if it should be used in some rare cases. What is the reason you want to hide it?Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

The decisions of the community have been implemented, you're adding no value with your edits. There is no ambiguity here. --Local hero ^talk 21:25, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Local hero As I told you on the discussion of Doiran Lake, from now and on you are officially ignored as it's clear to everybody that you have no objection that is in line with WP:MOSMAC. You know we are right with our changes. You are simply obsessed with North Macedonian and you don't respect the efforts of this community who made WP:MOSMAC.Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

Additionally the passport of the Republic of North Macedonia clearly states that the nationality is Macedonian/Citizen of Republic of North Macedonia. Canterbury Tail talk 01:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This phrase, unabbreviated, is the official name for the nationality of North Macedonia. Neither "Macedonian" not "North Macedonian" are officially used, only "Macedonian/Citizen of Republic of North Macedonia", as a whole. However, Wikipedia isn't bound by such agreements, and uses common language. --Antondimak (talk) 06:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Canterbury Tail Indeed the official noun for the nationality is not used in wikipedia because it's too long. However, it's still reported when necessary, we don't hide it. The issue discussed here is the adjective of the nationality, whihc is not defined by the Prespa Agreement, and WP:MOSMAC says we should prefer Macedonian but North Macedonian may be used in special cases of ambiguity. Therefore, we will still use Macedonian on every other page, but I propose to include North Macedonian as an adjective on this page, for the same reason we report the full noun for the nationality. Wikipedia is not a place that should hide information. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας

So, are the pages Demographics of South Korea and Demographics of North Korea "hiding information"? Yes, ambiguity exists and is solved with descriptors in many contexts. For example, disambiguation is required when speaking of an "American" among various people of the Americas and the United States. --Local hero ^talk 00:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The demonym for both South Korea and North Korea is South Korean or Korean and North Korean or Korean as you can confirm on the boxes of the pages. Given that the pages of South Korea, Demographics of South Korea, North Korea, and Demographics of North Korea are full of references to South Koreans and North Koreans, then indeed the page for the demographics should report South Korean and North Korean as an adjective. By looking carefully at the demographics pages, only that of North Korea reports the adjective, and indeed it hides information because North Korean is missing although it's used in all wikipedia pages. Your examples support my opinion, not yours. Thanks! Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k)

References

^ The Macedonian “Name” Dispute: The Macedonian Question—Resolved? Matthew Nimetz: "Finally, the parties agreed that for official organs of the state the adjectival reference in all official contexts would be “of the Republic of North Macedonia” (not “Macedonian” and not “North Macedonian”)... And it should be remembered that this usage applies solely to official usage; what people use in unofficial contexts is a matter of ordinary use of language."

[MatthewNimetzPublication-1] The Macedonian “Name” Dispute: The Macedonian Question—Resolved? Matthew Nimetz: "Finally, the parties agreed that for official organs of the state the adjectival reference in all official contexts would be “of the Republic of North Macedonia” (not “Macedonian” and not “North Macedonian”)... And it should be remembered that this usage applies solely to official usage; what people use in unofficial contexts is a matter of ordinary use of language."

[1]