Talk:Boeing 737 MAX

Infobox image (again)

About a month ago (not sure how I missed this for that long), DReifGalaxyM31 changed the infobox image from File:Ethiopian Airlines ET-AVJ takeoff.jpg to File:United Airlines Boeing 737-9 MAX AN5165061.jpg without discussion. As far as I am aware, this image was never proposed in any of the previous discussions. I've reverted the change, but it's probably worth discussing.

Here's my opinion. The United 737 is of a lower resolution of only 1,024 × 680 pixels (compared to 3,240 × 2,160 of the Ethiopian aircraft), which isn't necessarily bad as the images are scaled down in the infobox. However, the aircraft in the image has its landing gear down, rather than being in a clean configuration, and is backdropped by a dull, cloudy sky. Both of these were reasons for other images being rejected in favor of the Ethiopian image.

Based on the edit summary, it is clear to me that the main reason for the change was because the Ethiopian aircraft was involved in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. As I have stated in the previous discussions, "it crashed" is not a valid reason to change an infobox image. Any replacement image should be demonstrably better from an encyclopedic point of view. - ZLEA _T\^C 02:47, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Concur, no consensus here for change. BilCat (talk) 03:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I simply suggest File:Boeing 737-8 MAX N8704Q rotated.jpg. It's a perfect picture showing all of the MAX's characteristics (such as the clear view on the winglets and big engines), and since it sports Boeing livery but not any airline's color, it can be considered as a neutral option to represent the 737 MAX. Yes it is a little bit blurred, but it can look fine since it will be scaled down inside the infobox.
And I know...there's no formal regulations or rules preventing us from setting a crashed airframe as the thumbnail, but we should avoid painful memories, aren't we...?  Hwi.padam   23:06, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The Ethiopian image was actually chosen to replace File:Boeing 737-8 MAX N8704Q rotated.jpg in this discussion. "Painful memories" isn't a reason to downgrade the infobox image quality. The aircraft had the same livery as every other Ethiopian Airlines aircraft, so most readers wouldn't even recognize it as an accident aircraft unless they knew to check the registration. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

To be fair, just let someone make a challenge to all aviation photography sites (forums, comments, etc.) to find a worthy hero image or find another ET-AVJ photo to avoid the duplication with the current at infobox. Licensing included, of course. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 00:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

If you feel so strongly about it, by all means go ahead. I cannot guarantee that such an endeavor would be successful, especially if the goal is specifically to change the infobox image. I personally do not think it would be worth the trouble to coordinate such a challenge. Trust me, I once tried to coordinate a competition in Commons and I ended up being one of only three users to participate (my Silver Wiki is little more than a participation trophy and a reminder why I never coordinated another Commons competition since). Most likely, a better image will eventually pop up on Commons, but until then consensus is that the Ethiopian image stays. - ZLEA _T\^C 07:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

For ET-AVJ, JetPhotos has a few good ones: clean configuration, but facing right and taking off(?) from Boeing Field. Planespotters.net and Airliners.net only have the latter photo. Contacting photographers through the form, let's see how it goes... ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 01:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I want to point out that a new infobox image does not have to be of any specific MAX, but it just has to be demonstrably better from an encyclopedic point of view at representing the type. I will also say that duplication of the infobox image with the accident article is not a problem, and if a better image is uploaded of ET-AVJ, it likely would be used in both articles anyway. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Scoured all the MAX 9s in JetPhotos; here are the potential candidates (in chronological order, oldest to latest): United 1, Turkish, flydubai, United 2, AeroMexico 1, Alaska, and AeroMexico 2. I have already received correspondence from the photographer of the Alaska (Kirk) and he is "more than willing"; however, the first United's pose is exactly like the Ethiopian and fits with your "consensus" requirements...

By the way, how about doing the same for the recently-created Airbus A321neo article? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 12:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

If the photographer is indeed willing to release the image under a compatible license, then we should have a discussion about the new image. As for Airbus A321neo, I was under the impression that consensus was leaning toward not splitting the A320 family articles, and even merging the "ceo" variant articles back into Airbus A320 family. I don't expect Airbus A321neo to last very long as a standalone article, but if it does, a similar discussion should probably take place. Also, why did you put "consensus" in quotes when it is clearly defined here? - ZLEA _T\^C 13:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Up to page 27 right now for the MAX 200, here's a partial list (have yet to receive replies from photographers yet as of this typing): RyanAir 1, RyanAir 2 (Malta Air), RyanAir 3 (almost like the Ethiopian's pose), and RyanAir 4

If you want to get in touch with Kirk who took the Alaska 73M9 there's the "Contact" button below the photograph. Also got a reply from the photographer of the United 2 (Kevin Cargo) and he is "[h]appy to provide a higher resolution copy if needed as well". Don't know what to do next, so will leave the rest to you and/or your consensus-mates. It's been more than a year since the consensus of the hero image, just haven't the slightest clue; that explains the quotation marks. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 13:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I have already contacted the Alaska MAX photographer, and he is indeed willing to allow us to upload the image to Commons regardless of the ultimate consensus of its use here. Be sure to direct any willing copyright holders to WP:PERMISSION, and be sure to clarify that they would have to release the image under a compatable license. I would also ensure that they know that there is no guarentee that their image will be used on this article, as that would be up to the community to decide.

I'm a little worried that you may be going a bit far with your effort to get the image changed. You're not doing anything wrong, but it is unusual to go to such great lengths to get a consensus changed. The fact that the consensus is a year old does not make it any less valid, and it will remain valid until the community decides to change it. Again, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing now, but be careful that this doesn't become disruptive. - ZLEA _T\^C 14:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Alaska Airlines 737 MAX 9

Proposed infobox image replacement

Before I forget again, I will formally propose the replacement of the infobox image with the Alaska Airlines MAX 9 image discussed above. I have uploaded the photo to Commons and the permission has been confirmed by the VRT. I will say that I am slightly in favor of replacing the image, as the Alaska photo is better contrasted with the brighter blue sky and white fuselage, compared to the Ethiopian image's dull blue shy and slightly overexposed fuselage. The aircraft is in a mostly clean configuration, with the flaps being slightly lowered (though the Ethiopian image displays the flaps at around the same angle). I don't think the blue tail against the sky will cause issues with colorblind readers as they are two vastly different shades (though again, I have never experienced colorblindness so I'm not 100% sure about this). The left profile view of the aircraft is not unusual, and is similar to that of the Boeing 737 Next Generation infobox image. My only real complaint about this photo is that the glare on the left nacelle causes it to blend into the fuselage slightly, but the nacelle chevrons and new winglets are still clearly visible so I don't think that's a big issue. Overall, it's slightly better than the Ethiopian image in my opinion, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks. - ZLEA _T\^C 05:47, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll vote for the Alaska Airlines pic. Very frankly, I think the Ethiopian picture is better, but the ghoulishness of prominently displaying it is just...creepy. I realize most people probably won't know what they're seeing, but those who do may well wonder what kind of people would show that picture in a kind of congratulatory context, or wonder if Wikipedia even knows what it's showing. DonFB (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

As it's been explained before, "it crashed" is not a valid reason to downgrade the infobox image. The Ethiopian image has been consistently shown to be of greater encyclopedic value than all the other proposed changes, and the purpose of this discussion is to determine whether this new image is better from an encyclopedic point of view. Wikipedia is not censored, not that the image would otherwise be censored in the first place. There were over a hundred aircraft in the Ethiopian fleet at the time, including dozens of 737s, so the chances of any of the crew or passengers who died in the accident being inside the aircraft when the photo was taken is slim. With that said, are there any other reasons that you prefer the new image over the Ethiopian image? - ZLEA _T\^C 15:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

No, I don't imagine any victims were on the flight pictured. I didn't take part in the previous debate, but I'll stand by my vote for the reason given. DonFB (talk) 20:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

On the issue of censorship, the photo is shown at the top of the crash article, which is entirely appropriate. But here, it's another matter. DonFB (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The reason for me scouring JetPhotos is that the current Ethiopian MAX 8 is used twice in this article: first as the hero (infobox) image, the other under the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 header. As the initiator, naturally accept such a replacement.

By the way, both of you might have overlooked considering Kevin Cargo's United MAX 9 above; if you had contacted him he would also be happy to send you a larger/higher quality photograph. Though this one is dark-blue on blue (latest livery), and the colorblind issue would be taken into account. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 04:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I still prefer the Alaska aircraft, the United livery blends with the sky a bit too much, even for me. - ZLEA _T\^C 04:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I prefer the image of the Alaska plane. On its technical merits, IMHO, it's just as good as the Ethiopian image. But I think there are three reasons to swap it out that really push this over the edge for me: 1) It avoids using the same image in the infobox for this page and the infobox for the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 page. 2) It avoids using the same image twice on the same page (in the infobox and the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 section). 3) This issue of "but it's the crash plane" is going to keep coming up. Yes, Wikipedia is not censored, but is it really worth continuing to rehash this discussion every few weeks/months? Let's just change it and be done with it. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 00:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Voting for Alaska Last time I engaged in this discussion I was told it's an editorial decision. I much prefer Alaska for its exposure and framing. The Ethiopian was underexposed, as I commented, "a bit overexposed and washed out due to haze maybe", and the supposed fix overexposed it, but I didn't say anything because the discussion was all over the place and going nowhere. PS Thanks for finding a good photo and getting the permission, etc. — zmm ~talk~ 15:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome, zmm; that was initially my motivation. Now to find a suitable Airbus A321neo replacement image... ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 05:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Unprecise wording in section Alaska Airlines Flight 1282

"Some small personal belongings, along with cabin trim such as seat covers and headrests, were sucked out of the opening. According to some passengers, a child seated in row 26 had his shirt ripped off and sucked out of the aircraft while his mother held him.

Sucking forces do not exist in physics. The discussed items got blown/pushed/torn out of the fusealage as the compressed inner air ventilated out of the opening. We should try to be precise in our wording in an encyclopedia, no matter what some non expert journalists writes. 194.94.244.127 (talk) 13:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Do sucking forces exist when you drink liquids through a straw? It's all just a pressure differential? Does this "unprecise wording" make any difference to the outcome of this incident, or to the general reader's understanding of what happened? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC) p.s. I took the wording from Alaska Airlines Flight 1282, where you might also want to raise your question? Thanks.

Ah right, I see no question to the Talk page there, but a swift change to the text with the edit summary "corrected very common semantics error". How very convenient. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely right, blown not sucked, as for the door plug, also conflicts with Wiki pressurization articles elsewhere. Made the change. Ex nihil ^(talk) 16:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it matters very much. But do you also maintain that "Sucking forces do not exist in physics"? How do you explain how these things work? Apparently Aristotle once said, "nature abhors a pedant". I bet his carpets were filthy. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to delete this article now. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it really sucks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC) p.s. Perhaps we should just go with ".. ripped clean off his body, flying out the hole... "? What will these eye-witnesses come up with next!

NOT absolutely right, it's actually a relative truth, blown or sucked, both are right depending on the observer's position. An observer or reporter outside the aircraft will say: "During the climb, the door plug was blown out.", while a reporter within the aircraft will say: "Some small personal belongings, along with cabin trim such as seat covers and headrests, were sucked out of the opening." I hope we can agree and reach consensus on this topic. And as for the door plug, that's another subject, not to be confused. Ich-Du-De (talk) 12:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Not sure how many people were outside the aircraft when this accident occurred. It seems we're still waiting to hear from them.... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:34, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd hazard a guess that all of humanity (minus the 177 people on board) were outside the aircraft . More seriously, reliable sources are reporting the event as seen from the point of view of those on board, so "sucked" is indeed standard usage regardless of whether it is technically correct or not! Rosbif73 (talk) 13:08, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, you and me both. But not sure many were in a position to observe anything. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

You can read the answer up on wikipedia itsself. The "atmospheric pressure forces the liquid through the straw and into the mouth". It is absolutely true, items/people get torn out of planes/spaceships in such cases. Not sucked!2A02:8071:5090:EA00:39D9:7CE8:26EF:323B (talk) 07:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, there is only "blowing" and no "suction" in reality (physics) because the air and generally the fluid will always flow from a high potential (pressure) to a low potential (vacuum) and the same goes for the temperature which flows from high potential (hot) to low potential (cold). Physics describes a process in absolute law, independent of the observer, while the technical description (engineering) aims for easy understanding and mainly in relative law, that is to say dependent on the position of the observer as in our case : "suck out" (observer inside the plane) and "blow out" (observer outside the plane). A Wikipedia reader does not have to first learn physics to understand an article about an aircraft accident.Ich-Du-De (talk) 14:10, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

We all await the final accident report with interest... will they use "sucked out" or "blown out"?? For some reason, I'm on the edge of my seat! Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that this is an encyclopedia. The situation is very much like an item in a pressurized bottle of coke when the lid is popped off. No one, in particular not in an encyclopedia would describe the item that flies out of the bottle as being sucked out. We do not need to call it blown out or pushed out, but i think that 'torn out' would be a very precise and understandable term. What do you think? 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:39D9:7CE8:26EF:323B (talk) 20:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I doubt the NTSB will be mentioning bottles of coke, but you never know. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

No need to take things personally, Martin. Just trying to help you.

In case you like Start Trek, here is scene for you worth watching ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHa_WxzYWDI 194.94.244.127 (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

We wrote in the article "During the climb, a door plug blew out", so this is consistent with Mr. Data's claim in the Star Trek clip shown, isn't it? Ich-Du-De (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Cmdr. Data refers to the crew, not the hatch. 5.146.15.18 (talk) 21:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Take things personally? Sorry, I don't drink Coke. "It's a drink, Jim, but not as we know it." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Yup, this is an encyclopedia, but the article is not about theoretical physics or mechanics, it is aboutairplane accident. The term "torn out" or "ripped out" is good and neutral, but it only concerns the result of a process, and not about the process itself. “Suck out” says both: it is torn out because it is sucked by “vacuum” outside the plane, IMO. Ich-Du-De (talk) 18:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

A vacuum does not suck. That's the hole point about it. It is the pressurizes athmosphere that pushes. And frankly, it is entirely beyond me why you insist to write sthg wrong into an enzyclopedia when correct and precise wording is at hands. Why do you want readers to manifest a wrong picture if that is absolutely not necessary. How long do you think you want to revert correct changes back to wrong? 5.146.15.18 (talk) 21:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, that's the hole point. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

"A vacuum does not suck", and why did you also use the terms "vacuum" and "suck" when both do not exist in reality (physics)? A vacuum is a technical term for airspace at very low pressure compared to the standard pressure level, normally air at sea level. "Suction" is similar to "centrifugal" force, also a technical term for a "negative force" to describe the forces according to human impression (easy understanding) instead of their true "positive form": "blowing" and respectively "centripetal" force. This methodology also exists in physics, we describe a motion with relatively low velocity using classical Newtonian law for easy understanding instead of using the more general and valid modern Einstein theory. Most of the time, and especially in a encyclopedia, we need only to describe a "correct" situation and not the "true" one for easy understanding. right? Ich-Du-De (talk) 06:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

My very last attempt trying to help you to understand the problem and to improve the article. I will not waste any more time on this as you do not seem to be willing to accept that you are wrong even after I am giving you high quality sources that clearly state the oposite of what you insist on to write into the article.

Space Centre NZ: https://www.spacecentre.nz/resources/faq/solar-system/earth/atmosphere-escape.html

Should read 2: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/11/21/theres-no-suction-in-space-because-suction-is-an-illusion/

If you remain to feel that it is ok to actively maintain wrong wording on wikipedia articles, that isn't my problem. Its yours. I call that vandalism.

Over and out 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:1D92:4060:A5E4:755A (talk) 16:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Accusing those who disagree with you of vandalism is not going to help your case. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:28, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

They don't disagree with me, they disagree with several high quality sources on exactly that topic, two of which I have linked here. Why do you think I should explain myself any further? 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:1D92:4060:A5E4:755A (talk) 18:35, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Explain to me this. What are your thoughts on the Suction article? - ZLEA _T\^C 19:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

What part of the article are you refering to? 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:1D92:4060:A5E4:755A (talk) 19:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The very existence of the article. - ZLEA _T\^C 21:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

After all the discussion you still don't get my point and are still trying to explain your point of view (physics), which I understood before the discussion started. Therefore I have to repeat my point:

I AGREE that in physics there is no "negative force" such as suction, centrifugal force, etc., as well as "negative temperature" measured in Kelvin, but only positive force: blowing, centripetal force, etc.

BUT,

I DISAGREE with enforcing this strict definition in daily life, including the non-physics article in Wikipedia to make it understandable to common reader. Ich-Du-De (talk) 03:55, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I do know that! And because of you disagreeing on this matter we now have the article uncontrolled decompression and the article Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 which consistently use correct wording, and we have 'your' article section in the 737 Max article refering to the same subject matter to which you block this change.

And by the way, I did not touch any of the two articles mentioned above. I am not involved in this inconsitency, I was only trying to solve it. Its your baby. NedFlandersThe2nd (talk) 11:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Thats perfectly what I am telling you constantly!

As correctly stated in that article, suction is a day to day wording that refers to items being 'sucked in' by an artifical low pressure compartment e.g. in a vaccum cleaner, lungs during beathing or a straw. In all these cases energy is used to create that low pressure compartment resulting in objects beeing 'sucked' in while the forces come from the high pressure zone.

In an airplane, energy from a compressor is used to generate an artificial pressurized compartment, which in case of a sudden decompression blows out objects through that opening. The cherry stone in your mouth is also not sucked out of your mouth. It is blown out.

Also, both examples are mentioned perfectly in that article and in the sources I have linked.

So what exactly is it that you do not understand? 5.146.15.18 (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

"A common semantic mistake is made when in case of accidents with planes", I wonder what that could be in reference to. None of the sources you provided mention anything about "accidents with planes", making that part original research. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:18, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, but this statement is according to source 'succion is an illusion' which is given as a reference for that article. Hence I reverted your change back.

You should also think about consistency with the uncontrolled decompression article, which states that objects are blown out 8 times. I have added this one now, too to the suction article. So thanks for your help. 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:783D:7219:F785:582E (talk) 07:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that you were the one to add the "day-to-day term" statement to the article. Usually, if you want to change unsourced material as you did here, you would need sources to support your changes. Unless you can provide such sources, I will revert your unsourced changes to Suction. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

"Sucking forces do not exist in physics. The discussed items got blown/pushed/torn out of the fusealage as the compressed inner air ventilated out of the opening." Okay, negative pressure/force do not exist in physics, so no suction and centrifugal, just pressure and respectively centripetal forces. While physical description is used for absolute values/units to derive the formulas, we mainly use technical or engineering terms (relative to a reference) to easily describe the situation in daily life, including on Wikipedia. For example. we use sea level pressure (1bar) as a reference to describe a pressure zone (>1bar) or a suction zone (<1bar) on the aerodynamic surface such as a wing. We also say that centrifugal force works in a centrifuge, but centripetal force keeps the planets in orbit around the sun. We should therefore try to be as precise as possible (means as simple as possible) in our wording in wikipedia, taking into account the description in daily life (media). In our case, the reference is the position of the observer in relation to the plane: outside (blow) and inside (suck). Ich-Du-De (talk) 12:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure centrifugal and centripetal forces are relevant here. And no, I wouldn't say that the earth is "sucking the atmosphere down" to cause sea level pressure. But I agree that, from the passengers' point of view, things were getting "sucked out of the aircraft". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

By what did items get sucked out? They got torn out by the artificially pressurized athmosphere within the vessel when it vented through the opening. I think the point made is very valid. 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:39D9:7CE8:26EF:323B (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious to hear your opinion on the Suction article. This is not an article on physical forces, and the concept of "suction" being the result of air pressure differential between areas is widely known to English speakers. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Imagine an item being inside a half full pressurized bottle of coke. Now you pop of the lid. If you can confidently say that the item that is now flying out of the bottle got sucked out of it and you would describe the process in that way in an encyclopedia, there is nothing further to discuss, I will accept your opinion and we can move on. 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:39D9:7CE8:26EF:323B (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It all depends on perspective. From outside the container, one would experience a force pushing them away from the hole, which would likely be described as blowing. From inside the container, one would experience a force pulling them towards the hole, which would likely be described as sucking. From your perspective when opening a coke bottle, you are outside the container, so as you said you would describe the forces felt as "blowing". In the case of the accident, however, the passengers were within a pressurized container and felt the force of decompression, which they described as "sucking" (no pun intended). The description of the decompression forces as "sucking" is backed up by almost all reliable sources covering the accident. - ZLEA _T\^C 21:09, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright then! Take care! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHa_WxzYWDI 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:39D9:7CE8:26EF:323B (talk) 21:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Datas grandpa also agrees on that.

"GPT: If a door of a plane opens at high altitude, the correct terminology for describing the movement of items inside the plane being expelled through the door is that they are "forced out" or "ejected" due to the rapid movement of air from a high-pressure area (inside the cabin) to a low-pressure area (outside the aircraft).

The term "sucked out" is commonly used in casual conversation and media, but from a physics standpoint, it's more accurate to say that objects are pushed or forced out by the high-pressure air moving towards the lower pressure area. This is a result of the air pressure trying to equalize rather than a suction force in the traditional sense." 194.94.244.127 (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I see, this is also another character of physics description, it is more "object oriented", while technical or engineering description is more "subject or usage oriented". Let's take as an example the combustion process in an aircraft engine, particularly during the expansion process in the turbine. A theoretical thermodynamics book (physics style) will focus on the fuel-air mixture, i.e. the material, and say that its internal energy is reduced or a negative delta (energy flows from the material/object), while a technical thermodynamics book (engineering style) will say a positive delta (energy is transferred to the engine turbine). Ich-Du-De (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"an item being inside a half full pressurized bottle of coke. Now you pop of the lid. If you can confidently say that the item that is now flying out of the bottle got sucked out of it", no, definitely not. It has to be "blown out", because the observer is (always) outside the bottle, or can you "teleport" me into the bottle like Star Trek? Ich-Du-De (talk) 19:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

For the protocol:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/11/21/theres-no-suction-in-space-because-suction-is-an-illusion/

https://www.spacecentre.nz/resources/faq/solar-system/earth/atmosphere-escape.html

It isn't a matter of perspective, its a matter of right or wrong. 'Sucked out' is wrong. There is nothing that sucks. There is a compressor that pressurizes the cabin and this compressor is where the energy comes from that blows objects out in such a case. This is the situation and there is nothing more to discuss about it. You are a prime example why precise wording is important.

Now folks, make the best out of it. #overandout 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:1D92:4060:A5E4:755A (talk) 17:05, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The Suction article addresses this by stating "Contrary to popular belief, however, the forces acting in this case do not originate from the low pressure side (the vacuum), but from the side of the positive pressure." What are your thoughts on that? - ZLEA _T\^C 17:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the "forces" acting in this case do not originate from the low pressure side (the vacuum), or from the side of the positive pressure, but from the passengers perceptions? Both existing sources say "sucked out"? Perhaps there are more/ better sources that say "blown out"? As I said before, I'd be happy to leave it as it is until we see the NTSB report. Not sure it's a huge problem with the reader misunderstanding what happened. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

"Sucked out" is actually not wrong but it is only not true (not in reality), because the term suction is also used in aerodynamics to describe pressure below sea level (< 1 bar). I admit that sometimes, in a complex technical situation, an engineer forgets that there is no suction and that he should change his level of abstraction to physics to describe the situation correctly, i.e. there is only blowing force, from a higher pressure to a lower pressure area.

Having said that, I do however DISAGREE with the enforcing of this strict definition in daily life, including the non-physics article of Wikipedia, to make it understandable to the common reader. Ich-Du-De (talk) 04:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

This is getting silly. It seems that the only editor wanting 'suck' is Ich-Du-De but this gives us a problem. If we use 'suck' the article is internally inconsistent because it claims that the door 'blew' out but other loose items were 'sucked' out. The citation refers to a layman's comment, one of the survivors interviewed immediately after the incident who used 'sucked' colloquially and in ignorance, this source is not a reliable one for a technicality. It also contradicts the article Suction, which sets the facts out plainly. As an encyclopaedia we should be a lot more responsible about the words we use, or we are perpetuating a common myth when we should be setting the record straight. There is a huge difference between sucking and blowing and every reader with any physics will cringe when they read what we are writing. Ich-Du-De, not meaning to be rude, this is a genuine concern, but I wonder if English your first language? Forgive me if it is but if not, best step aside. In the end, the investigation report will settle it and while I do not know what that report will say it certainly will not refer to sucking. Ex nihil ^(talk) 20:18, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I would actually suspect the opposite. Since "suck" is so commonly used (technically correct or not) by native English speakers to refer to the result of air pressure differential between areas, I would expect that those who use "blown" in such a context to be non-native English speakers, which may or may not be a bit ironic. Being a native English speaker myself who is taking an academic minor in physics, I was blindsided by how controversial the term "suction" apparently is when I say how this discussion progressed, and furthermore I am surprised that "blow" is apparently not nearly as controversial for the same reasons. I'm not for or against either term, but perhaps the use of the term "suck" in this context is the result of an evolving language. - ZLEA _T\^C 20:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Also as a native English speaker with a technical background, "sucked out" seems like a perfectly natural way of describing what happened from the point of view of passengers on board, whereas "blown out" seems odd in this context and would seem more natural for, say, something being blown out of the window of a moving car. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:35, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Hence my previous suggestions to use semantically correct and more natural sounding wording like "items got ejected", "items got torn out" etc. pp.. It is not like we do not have any alternatives at hand to which all of us could agree. NedFlandersThe2nd (talk) 08:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Further suggestions we can choose from to which you agree and which are semantically correct? NedFlandersThe2nd (talk) 11:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

In think neither @Martinevans123 nor @Ich-Du-De did understand that the term blowing has not the same meaning as the word suction when they did the edits. That's ok for a 14 year old teenager that just discovered the dark side of the internet but that should be fixed in an encyclopedia.

Since they are simply stubborn and come up with alternating explanations why it should stay wrongly worded (as they meanwhile accept)

1. Blowing and Suction do not have the same meaning. It is two different things, no matter what you think it means.
2. Only one of them is correct, the other is an illusion in this case (as underpinned with several references)
3. The meaning does not involve perspective (If this is the argument, where is the reference)
4. A blowout does not involve an explosion (if this is the argumentation where is the reference)
5. If it is a quote from a witness it should be marked as such and marked with a [sic]
6. Alternative wording could be used to circumvent the problem as I had suggested but was also rejected.

The situation remains that a wrong wording is used in this article which also breaks consistency across articles and even within the article. Corrections (3 independent attempts by) @NedFlandersThe2nd, @Ex nihil @ʘx have been reverted based on flaw arguments or no arguments at all. 2A02:8071:5090:EA00:ED4A:9C90:9172:1C8C (talk) 07:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Martinevans123 understood that the term blowing "has not the same meaning as the word suction", thanks. He's given his view a few times over and now he's retiring from this rather lengthy "discussion". Martinevans123 (talk) 09:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

p.s. one last thought... once the explosive decompression has occurred (which is very rapid), is there not then a prolonged aerodynamic effect of air rushing past the open aperture which "pulls" loose items out? Or will we be told "there is no pull force in physics"? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I am absolutly pro finding a good solution. I do not insist on 'blown out' as I already mentioned in my very first edit, if somebody feels uncomfortable about it. But we really should need to find a wording that makes sense in this context.

As for your suggestion, simply think it through. How can wind pull sthg. Its not that the athmospheric molecules attach to the items and somehow generate a force that pulls on them. Also I don't think the headrest etc. did get ejected after the end of the blowout but due to the blowout.

Some thoughts:

The door "blew off" (consensus), the pressurized atmosphere "escapes/blew out" (consensus) through the hole and items got ejected in this process (maybe consensus).

How about we remove that 'forcibly' from my previous suggestion. I think we can reach consensus that things got ejected from the plane and maybe even that this is better wording than sucked out after several people including @Ich-Du-De and you already stated that they are aware that sucked out isn't exactly correct for which there are also RS. NedFlandersThe2nd (talk) 12:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

IchDuDe understood the difference between blowing and sucking either, that is to say in relation to the mouth:

a.) Blowing means that air/liquid flows out of the mouth, while

b.) Sucking means air/liquid flows into the mouth.

Additionally, in combination with the word "out", the terms "blown out" as well as "sucked out" can be interchangeable in our case because the result is the same, i.e. something is "pushed" out from the fuselage/cabin by air flow, either by a blowing process or by a suction process. I therefore prefer to use both terms: blown out for the door plug and sucked out for the passenger's belongings as reported by the person concerned. Ich-Du-De (talk) 14:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to finally sum this up:

The ASN has 17 accidents with explosive decompression on record. In three of them people were lost in flight.

The wording by the NTSB is two times ejection (1 + 2) and one time blown out. Zero times sucked out. I also gave you clear sources as to why sucked out is wrong wording in particular for this type of accident.

So one last question: Based on which ground are you guys reverting back a change to correct wording four times and insist to use wrong wording in this particular article (related articles are correct) not even willing to compromise on it?

Question also goes to: @Martinevans123, @Rosbif73 @ZLEA

And cc @Ex nihil and @ʘx just for your amusement NedFlandersThe2nd (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm just flabbergasted by this thread. Please take one or two steps back and have a look at this.

I shall follow the WP rule to assume the best, but I'm skeptical. Anyway: I will take the time and go to the fundamentals and explain.

Over the many years that I have been part of WP (since 2001), the same discussions have popped up again and again, because people just don't understand the difference between everyday discussions and vernacular and the scientific and formal requirements and standards that encylopedias in general and the WP in particular aspire to.

Yes, people use wrong language in their conversations, and yes, people have wrong conceptions about many things in their minds. But this does not mean that WP articles also can use wrong language or foster wrong conceptions.

WP articles use correct language in order to facilitate learning. If we say "an article about topic X does not need to be correct about topic Y", we betray our readers who intuitively expect all statements in an article to be correct, not just those that are concerned with the lemma. We would instill wrong conceptions in them or at least reinforce them. That is the opposite of what an encyclopedic work like the WP is supposed to do.

To make it clear: It is not relevant whether people are used to say "sucked out" or whether "they perceive it as such". The article describes a physical process where scientific truth has been established. Even when people perceive it differently, the physical condititions do not change. We have to describe *what happened* which may be *different from how it felt or was perceived*. The perception can be described *separately*, but it must not be mixed up with the progress of events.

I want to give you a different example. You are probably aware that when temperatures are extreme, we can actually mix up hot and cold. That is, it can happen that a cold object feels hot. However, it would be wrong to write "the person felt a hot object" when the object was in fact cold. We would have to write something along the lines of "the object felt hot to the person". See the difference? 18:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC) ʘχ (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

NedFlandersThe2nd "Based on which ground are you guys reverting back a change to correct wording four times and insist to use wrong wording in this particular article (related articles are correct) not even willing to compromise on it?" No need for assuming bad faith, I have already stated that I have no preference for either word. I find this whole argument against the use of "suction" ridiculous. In response to ʘx's hot vs cold analogy, it could similarly be claimed that there is no such thing as "cold" in physics as what we call cold is in reality a lack of thermal energy or "heat". Yet, I don't see anyone arguing for the removal of "cold" from any articles. - ZLEA _T\^C 18:45, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@ZLEA There is cold and there is suction. Just not in this case! NedFlandersThe2nd (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Should I really assume the best? It doesn't seem that way.

Again, I have to explain fundamentals. You are mixing up categories, with errors like that it is easy to arrive at arbitrary statements.

• Hot and cold are physically well-defined concepts since they refer to certain intervals on the Kelvin scale. This has nothing to do with the definition of heat energy.
• The term "sucked out", on the other hand, is in fact referring to a physically wrong conception.

By the way, the argument that we can change perspective and perceive a blowing action as a sucking action does not change the physical facts. This is just an abuse of relativity. I can always say "I didn't punch you, you moved into my fist!" But for some strange reason, people won't accept this.

It really appears like you guys here are just fighting for being right. This seems to be one of those threads that are prolonged for eternity in order to tire others and make them weary so that they eventually go away. The one guy who stays will declare himself the winner. And as soon as some new editor comes and makes an edit, it will be reverted swiftly and the poor guy referred to the so-called "discussion" where he will be shown who's the boss. Have seen it too many times to be surprised. ʘχ (talk) 19:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

For someone who has been here so long, I would expect such accusations to be beneath you. It seems I have nothing more to contribute to this runaway discussion, so I will remove myself from it to prevent any further clashes. May cooler heads prevail. - ZLEA _T\^C 19:39, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Flying Coffin?

I propose adding a nickname section that would include the most common nicknames of the 737 MAX series like : " The Flying Coffin", "Widowmaker" and "The Plane with the Open Doors". 203.181.48.208 (talk) 05:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

No. This violates multiple items on WP:NOT, including WP:FORUM. -Fnlayson (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Plenty of other planes have their nicknames on their articles - e.g. the B-52 - why should the 737 MAX be granted an exception? It's a fairly common nickname for the plane - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50225025 82.5.152.4 (talk) 09:33, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

That's a nice headline-grabber, used once by Senator Richard Blumenthal? Not sure that qualifies it as "a fairly common nickname." Martinevans123 (talk) 10:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The source you provided is using the term "flying coffin" to describe the aircraft, not as a nickname. Only time will tell whether the 737 MAX goes down in the history books as a "Flying Coffin", but right now, its use in news headlines is not a reliable indicator that the term is or will be a lasting nickname for the type. - ZLEA _T\^C 21:15, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Section update; paragraph split

The following sentence:

"In January 2024, the FAA grounded some 737 MAX 9s with a configuration similar to that of Alaska Airlines Flight 1282, which suffered a mid-flight blow out of a plug door filling an unused emergency exit, causing rapid decompression of the aircraft."

(1) should start a new paragraph as it concerns a different of incidents from those in the earlier part of the paragraph;

(2) should be updated as the FSA has now (9th Jan, 2024) grounded all of that set of aircraft. Two airlines, so far, have discovered loose bolts in that part of the configuration during their investigations.

The situation is developing and it is possible that further problems will be discovered as airlines investigate. 86.185.71.236 (talk) 07:46, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I've made it a separate paragraph, though the long-term significance of this issue is yet to be proven and I doubt if this will remain lead-worthy. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Grounding

I came here looking for info on the Jan 2024 grounding of the 737 MAX 9 fleet. I am disappoint.

If someone knows where the main article is on that, please link it in this article. Jra (talk) 14:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Boeing_737_MAX_groundings, the link is actually in the text of this article. Ex nihil ^(talk) 15:37, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

MAX 8-200 official name

@VenFlyer98: disputes the name of the Max 8 200, providing a Boeing press release from 2014(!), and makes the unsourced claim that it is referred to "internally" as the 200.

However, the official Boeing name is the "737-8-200". In addition, if you Google even "737 max 200" you get loads of results referring to it as the 8-200. 737 Technical Site Flightglobal 2021 2021 2023 2023 2023

If you look at the Irish aircraft register you will find it called the "BOEING 737-8200". The reason for this, of course, is to avoid confusing it with the Boeing 737-200 Original.

Clearly what has happened here is the official name got changed. If we look at the sources already in the article, the older ones such as Seattle Times 2014 refer to it as the 200, whereas the later ones such as theaircurrent.com 2019, Flightglobal 2021, or Ryanair 2022, refer to it as the 8-200.

I would be keen to get other editors' views on this. cagliost (talk) 09:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

The 737-MAX 8200 is written on the fuselage in paint. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/15/boeing-737-max-ordered-by-ryanair-undergoes-name-change Shencypeter (talk) 15:10, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yup. Same on this Akasa 8-200. cagliost (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

MAX 8-200 isn't the official name. Listed below are the official and most popular names of all 737 MAX variants. The official name is based on FAA and EASA type certificates, while the most popular name is based on Google search results.

Official name / Most popular name:

- 737-7 / 737 MAX 7

- 737-8 / 737 MAX 8

- 737-8200 / 737 MAX 200

- 737-9 / 737 MAX 9

- 737-10 / 737 MAX 10

RPC7778 (talk) 08:51, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

As you say, the US model name is "737-8200"; same with EASA (see, for example, the IAA registry).

I can't replicate your Google results. When I search for "737 MAX 200" I get 106,000 results, whereas when I search for "737 MAX 8 200" I get 688,000 results, and when I search for "737 MAX 8-200" I get 686,000 results. cagliost (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Ignoring "737 MAX 8 200", the "737 MAX 200" yields 63M results while the "737 MAX 8-200" generates almost 1M results. I'm not sure how you only got 106,000 results for the "737 MAX 200".

The reason why I ignored "737 MAX 8 200", despite generating 74.8M results, is because the search engine tends to disconnect the "737 MAX 8" and "200". The "200" may not even refer to the model name at all in some results. RPC7778 (talk) 15:32, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Are you using quotes or not? I am. cagliost (talk) 17:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

It's important not to confuse the model name with the name of the aircraft. For example, the MAX 9 has the model name "737-9", according to the FAA registry.

So the model names don't include the word "MAX", whereas the aircraft names do. cagliost (talk) 13:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

What was the official marketing name used by Boeing for the 737-8200 before MAX was dropped? The marketing name may not necessarily be the most popular name for the aircraft. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:15, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

It's 737 MAX 200. [1] RPC7778 (talk) 15:34, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Well then, since WP:COMMONNAME only applies to article titles, I see no reason to not refer to it by Boeing's old official marketing name unless examples of Boeing referring to the variant as "MAX 8200" or "MAX 8-200" can be found. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:42, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

"MAX" has not been dropped. RPC7778 provides a Boeing press release from 2014, however in this 2023 press release, Boeing refer to it as a 737-8-200, and also call it a MAX in the same article. cagliost (talk) 16:58, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Boeing has all but completely dropped the "MAX" name from the variants, though not the type as a whole. My point is that the article should use Boeing's "MAX 200" name and not "MAX 8200" or "MAX 8-200", unless it can be determined that Boeing itself referred to the variant as such. Interestingly, the press release you provided still used the MAX name for the MAX 10, but not the 200. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The name “8200” has only been used by Ryanair and was painted on planes to drop the MAX name due to the original grounding incidents. Boeing referred to the plane has the “MAX 200” since the original press releases (which I have mentioned prior). In my opinion should either be listed as “MAX 200” or “MAX 8-200.” Almost all articles of airlines that fly the type have had it listed as “MAX 200” for years now. VenFlyer98 (talk) 23:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I would be happy with "MAX 8-200". cagliost (talk) 05:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Unless it can be determined that Boeing used the name, it would not be right to add an unofficial name alongside the actual marketing names. - ZLEA _T\^C 16:20, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Probably of note, Boeing currently refers to the 200 as the 737-8-200, so there is a discrepancy between the current marketing name and model number. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:19, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 shirt allegation

The article cites passengers claiming a shirt was sucked off a child while a mother held him. The article fails to mention that investigation cannot confirm this (as mentioned in the source article). It is more likely that the child was already shirtless, and a passenger saw loose clothing flying out of the opening and made an assumption. One article source contains this claim along with the fact that cell phones were sucked out; however, these are not comparable. There is a significant difference between cell phones that people laid loosely on their laps while they placed their oxygen masks on, and sucking the shirt off a child while the mother held it. It is perhaps the most sensational and evoking claim of the entire event, and has not been verified, and the supposed mother with child has made no appearance. I propose the sensational claim either be removed until confirmed, or an additional clarification that investigation has not confirmed the claim. 2600:1700:343A:9250:509D:EF72:E32B:4483 (talk) 13:43, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It's all the more surprising as the child was reportedly a teenager (although this also has not been officially confirmed)? I agree that the sucking off of the shirt and the mother holding the child seem, in some ways, slightly contradictory. But the source for the claim is pretty clear. And note: apparently (at some articles at least) we're not allowed to say "sucked off" as "there is no sucking force in physics." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

There is only a large (sorry) sucking force for a very short time, until the pressure equalizes. (Pressure equalization force? Doesn't sound very physicsy, either.) It is hard to imagine any force pulling a shirt off, and leaving the person otherwise unharmed. There should at least be red marks. Imagine instead, pulling a shirt off with ropes attached somewhere. It has to tear in a few places to come off. There are stories of two iPhones found on the ground, one working and one not. People like to have their phone on the tray table, or even the clip to hold one up for viewing. Could easily escape from those. Gah4 (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Martinevans123's comment. Items getting "sucked off" is not a proper term in a scientific or academic context (or really much anywhere supposed to deliver information impartially). If I were sharing a beer with friends though, sure.

I think mentioning that the personal items were ejected from the airplane by the pressure differential could be a more fitting description. 2A01:CB04:4AF:1500:E04E:46F9:138C:AB82 (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Not this again. If you have a problem with the wording used by the sources, bring it up with them. Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs, even if said wrongs are something as insignificant as scientific vs "beer" semantics. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not here for an edit war, but I wanted to add my voice to the conversation because frankly I found it jarring when I was reading the article. Using the same wording as the sources seems hardly mandatory when we are not using direct quotes, especially if, for example, we were using such sources as sensationalist tabloids. I am sure there are other articles who don't use that wording out there.

That said I'll leave it at that, I'm not touching the article and it's frankly not important. Getting sucked off gets the point across either way. 2A01:CB04:4AF:1500:970:510C:1460:5E97 (talk) 08:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I was being ironic. I see nothing wrong with "sucked off" if that's how it was described by witnesses. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:51, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, FWIW, there's this--photo shown in website article and also in embedded video of TV news interview with passenger who reportedly took photo: https://katu.com/news/local/woman-helped-teen-who-was-seated-near-blown-out-door-plug-on-alaska-airlines-flight-1282 DonFB (talk) 22:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hard to know exactly how this happened without knowing what sort of shirt it was and how it was fastened. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Major updates needed

Many of the sources listed throughout the article are from immediately after the Ethiopian accident at the latest, and contain information that is now inaccurate, at best. Even at the time, the articles referenced were highly sensational in nature and contained very little factual information regarding the actual flight recorder data, bulletins and standard procedures from Boeing, and results of investigations from the Lion Air accident.

In 2024 we now know that the angle-of-attack probe on the Lion Air 737 was most likely calibrated incorrectly by Xtra Aerospace, and that the Ethiopian probe was most likely struck by a bird (or some other foreign object) during takeoff. This information is critical in evaluating the series of events that followed; simply stating that MCAS activated "because of false data" misleads readers as to the cause of the actual crashes.

At this point it is undeniable that the pilots did not follow standard procedures for an uncommanded stabilizer movement event that had been published for decades and were the same regardless of the implementation of MCAS. 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:24B0:8B9B:BA8A:3A72 (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia's rules, you'll need to provide reliable, published sources of information before we make those changes.

Furthermore, I'd say that while I understand the point you are trying to make, Boeing's flawed designs is still at the heart of these two issues. MCAS should have never relied on a single AOA sensor to provide information to MCAS, and pilots training on a severe mis-trim condition had not been included since the original 737.

We do go into more detail on these issues on the Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 pages. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 02:15, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, I will gather some sources. But if "reliable" is a condition that sources must meet, many of the current sources are unacceptable. Many are simply Washington Post or New York Times articles that read like opinion pieces.

Whether MCAS "should" have relied on a single sensor is of course a matter for discussion, but at the end of the day, the assumed redundancy for that was a pair of well trained pilots in the cockpit. While training for a severe mis-trim condition may not have been included, Boeing has published a standard procedure for a trim runaway for decades - both crews identified uncommanded nose-down trim without fully implementing this standard procedure, which involves immediately disconnecting autothrottle so as to not exacerbate the issue with overspeed conditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:4D84:1C9C:B1B1:823D (talk) 15:00, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Both The Washington Post and The New York Times are considered "generally reliable" by Wikipedia. If you wish to challenge this classification, you should do so at WP:RSN, not here. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

They may well be, that doesn't change that their reporting on the 737 MAX is highly editorialized. The information that is referenced as source material in their articles from 2019 and 2020, for example, is now verifiably false. If they're going to be used as sources, we should at least be using up-to-date material that includes information about the results of the actual crash investigations. 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:EC6B:E4AB:67DD:BA38 (talk) 00:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)