Talk:Hakan Şükür

Record of September 2004 deletion discussion

Article listed on WP:VFD Sep 13 to Sep 20 2004, consensus was to keep. Discussion:

• In Turkish. Footballer. Stub, not sure even if it's on-topic. Over 2 weeks on Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English. Delete. -- Jmabel 07:23, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep fixed stub -- Jmabel 18:44, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Delete.Mikkalai 08:30, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Delete: Stub on a non-notable figure, untranslated. Geogre 12:36, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. I've started a new stub in English. As the second most capped player for Turkey, he's definitely notable. sjorford 13:27, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. New stub looks nice. bbx 17:56, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Very notable. Not sure if the old stub in Turkish was on-topic, but now we have a nice stub in English. Andris 17:59, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Encyclopedic material, notable, good stub. Livajo 18:51, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable footballer. Average Earthman 08:37, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. A good start on a very well-known footballer. Dale Arnett 05:39, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

End discussion -- Graham ☺ | Talk 11:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No source provided

This part has been removed, reason is "no source provided". :His relatives were Albanian immigrants from Kosovo who bared the familyname Shyqiri, that later developped in the Turkish form Şükür. This is what makes Hakan to be loved both in Turkey as well as in Albania. --Ugur Basak 08:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I took it off because the user who added it in has not substantiated his/her claim on his supposed albanian roots. The {{Fact}} tag has been here for over a month now, but still no source was provided. Im not sure about Şükür, but Hakan is a typical turkish first name. KillaShark 11:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I just add this to talk page, if someone can provide sources in the future. Btw, i've added that {{fact}} template for someone to give a source. --Ugur Basak 12:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Şükür is a word close to "thank". We use the phrase "Allah'a şükürler olsun" which means "thank God". -- WiiVolve 16:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

FIFA Top Scorer Award 1998

Where is there a source on this? I can't find any credible information that he won such an award, let alone finding any information if there was even an award. The European Golden Boot is ruled out, because Mario Jardel won it in 1998. Also, it could not have been the FIFA Golden Shoe, as Turkey did not qualify for the World Cup in 1998. Can 03:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Nickname

I removed Torinolu Şaban nickname, because it means Şaban the Torinian. This nickname is only used by rival clubs fans to insult him. --Ugur Basak 10:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

FALSE

Turkish Newspaper:

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/1997/02/27/spor/gs.html

Search Google:

http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=tr&q=Torinolu+%C5%9Eaban

This nickname is only used by all supporters fans to insult him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.97.151.203 (talk • contribs) .

In milliyet's link, he doesn't say i like that nickname. He means noone can demoralize me with that words. Also GS fans don't call him as Torinolu Şaban, as your link supports, rival fans call him. Cheers --Ugur Basak 21:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugur Basak galatasaray supporters nicname no want.

Nicknamed the "Bull from Bosporus", Sinan Samil Sam

Hakan Sükür No nickname The Bull of the Bosphorus. Nickname Hakan Sükür = Torinolu Şaban

http://www.google.com.tr/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=torinolu+%C5%9Faban

http://sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=torinolu%20şaban

http://www.zamane-sozluk.com/tr/sozluk.asp?x=torinolu%20saban

Of course Sukur means something in turkish but his family changed surname after coming to Turkey.

Nickname (???)

some people like or not, Hakan is known by most people as the most idiotic turkish footballer ever. that's why he is being called as Saban the Torinian. People do not call him Saban the Torinian in order to insult him, but it is just because he is Saban. and another fact that should be mentioned in his article that he demanded 100.000 capasitated mosque to be built in Turin when he transferred to Torino. He probably noticed in Turin that many italian living in Turin and there was no mosque. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.53.115 (talk) 02:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Do we need the list?

Seriously, do we need a list of all his international goals? I can't see in any way how this fits into an encyclopedia. I think that part should be removed or seriously shortened (we don't need 4 lines if he shot 4 goals in one game). 213.157.11.56 16:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

We do need it because his performance at national games is big for Turkey. This person did a lot for Turkish football and I think there is a right for it to stay on Wiki.

wtf? hes goals change evrytime u change the language

i want to speak to the r..ard that mad this piece of s..t website!

• Did not even have the guts to sign...Pityful!!! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 01:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Christian?

On the bottom of the page, there is a link to a page called 'Turkish Christians'. I am very sure Hakan Şükür is not a Christian. If anybody has a source for this, please post.rokkafellah (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Şükür Hakan ethnic Albanian

All right, enough with this non-sense. Find a source or let this die already. I don't know which is more surprising, seeing how easy it is to substantiate a baseless claim or people continue to discussing this without a source (credible or otherwise). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.236.184 (talk) 18:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

This is now well established with several personal announcements from Hakan Sukur himself, stating he is ethnically Albanian, from several credible Turkish news outlets, including NTV, Radikal, and Fanatik. Amended the article accordingly, with the full references. Enozkan (talk) 09:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The name Hakan is certainly Turk and as per his family name Şükür/ Shyqiri, I guess that is more related to Islam in general than to Turkishness in particular.

Arabs and Berbers have the word "shukry" or "chukry" which means "cherished" and "shokran /shukran" for "thanks". Albanians were one of the prominent people under the Ottomite Empire and most Muslim Albanians bear Turkish names and even family names seem Turkish, although ethnic Albanian.

I remember that once, in the Italian RAI TV, after a game clash with Igli Tare, the Albanian stricker, the Italian journalists seeking for tabloid news were pointing that a sort of "Balkanic War" had erupted between these two players. Here is where Hakan commented his kosovar ancestry, dennying any sort of animosity.

I also remember that in this Wikipedia´s article there was a source in Turkish (or Albanian, I am not really sure ...) that pointed out Şükür´s Kossovar descent, but it was erased. I assume that Turkish fanatics do not like very much when Albos claim the best player in all Turkish Soccer History to be one of them.

Personally, I do not understand this attitude: Lefter Küçükandoniŷadi was of Greek descent but proudly defended the Turkish colours with honor, the same way Hakan did.Periptero (talk) 00:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

he is not an ethnic albaian. albanian immigrants and ethnic albanians are different things. lefter was an ethnic greek but theres not any word about your dream.--94.54.245.56 (talk) 15:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Albanian immigrants are not "ethnic" Albanians ? Albanian immigrants to Turkey are "ethnic" Turks then ? Maybe in Atatürk's POV. By the way, there is an article in a Kosova daily where an investigation was carried out, and finaly Hakan declared (apparently, nead to check) that he was part Cherkess from his paternal side, part Torbesh from his mother's. Anyway, he seems not to be from Turk or Turkic or "ethnic" Turk origin. Still one of the greatest Turkish strikers ever.Periptero (talk) 01:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

theres not any source about your claim Periptero...--Finn Diesel (talk) 22:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

hakan şükür is an ethnic Uzbek Turk whose familiy was immigrated from Balkans, as he states so.--Alpha Beta Gaga (talk) 12:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Guys, I claim nothing. I just point out what I have got through. In an interview from "Kosova Sot" newspaper in 2001, Hakan stated he's NOT Albanian, therefore end of the question.

As a matter of fact, he pointed out that his family migrated to Prishtine and Mitrovice. His grandfather was a Cherkez officer in the Turkish army sent to surpress the Albanian Insurgency lead by Isa Boletini and Hasan Prishtina back in 1910's.

This is his only tie with Kosovo, nothing to do with kosovar albanians. Since I have no link source yet, I write it down here and not in the text.Periptero (talk) 19:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is now well established after Hakan Sukur's announcement, where he called himself "an Albanian, not a Turk", which made the news and even the Turkish Primer Minister commented on it. Including the appropriate references (which were already in the Turkish Wikipedia), I am amending the article to reflect this (and hopefully ending this senseless discussion). Enozkan (talk) 09:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

POV

A lot of unsourced POV text in here that oughtn't to be. "...the country's greatest football star" and "...an unselfish nature and a penchant for scoring crucial and memorable goals has assured him of a special place in the hearts of Turkish football fans" are two prime examples. Dancarney (talk) 16:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Mistake

Can Bartu(Fiorentina) is the first Turkish footballer played in Serie A, not Hakan Şükür.--94.54.240.54 (talk) 04:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Kosova

There was a link provided by a user (User:Kedadi) stating that Şükür was born to "a Kosovo Albanian" father. I kept the link but I changed to "kosovar" father, since there is no reference about his family being albanian and there are other ethnicities in Kosova than albanians (comprising Turks)

Here below is the article provided:

"Hakkan Şükür, ish-futbolisti i Interit dhe i Galatasarayt është me prejardhje nga Kosova. Babai i tij ka lindur në Prishtinë, ndërsa më vonë është shpërngulur në Turqi"

This is the translation to English:

Hakkan Şükür, the former Galatasaray and Inter Milan footballer is originally from Kosovo. His father was born in Pristina, and later moved to Turkey"Periptero (talk) 12:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No he is born in Turkey so he is Turk. Redman19 (talk) 13:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

edits

If you want to edit something please discuss it here first, dont revert the whole page. Redman19 (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'll now try to defend my changes, as i have to a lesser extent in your talkpage: 1 - why a poorer picture instead of a better one, in colours? If it's copyright violation, please tell me, if it's not please the other stay - and i am not enhancing my work, since it was not me who put the other picture in the infobox, i think it's better, wait...IT'S BETTER!

2 - The intro was filled with POV/weasel - exhaustive repetition of how good he was, when one time is enough - forbidden by Wikipedia, i toned it down a little bit - i also admit i should not have removed everything, i apologize for that, but please let me contribute to the article as well, rephrasing some stuff - especially in INTRO - or do you feel i do not have the right? Also in the introduction, which was needlessly long - it's called INTRODUCTION - why was the bit about his Serie A and Premier League (especially the latter is important, as this is English wiki) removed? I reinstated it.

3 - Another thing which is "compulsive" here at at the site is that birthplaces should be introduced in storyline, not intro, i retrieved it and you reverted it, wrongfully.

4 - Wording: no need to say "Süper Lig" over and over again, over and over again, just "league" is enough after the first reference. I also see that some of my wikilinks to football seasons were removed. Perhaps i was not the only one reverting/removing stuff without discuss stuff first...

5 - In infobox, just "Adazapari" is enough, we'll add both town and province in storyline itself, box should be compressed as much whenever possible. Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 02:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I suggest we should just let an admin check the page. Redman19 (talk) 10:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Alright. Will go through it point by point.

• I'm glad you could come to an agreement on the photo as the current one is much better.
• I'm reinstating the link changes under Statistics and Honours. I feel this should not be controversial, as the displayed names do not change, only the links to avoid redirects.
• Looking at featured articles on footballers, three that I can see - Bobby Robson, Steve Bruce and Thierry Henry have province information in the info box. As featured articles are reviewed and fine tuned extensively toward manual of style guidelines, I believe it is appropriate to leave the province in this infobox. The town, province and country do not make the infobox any bigger in this case as far as I can see and having the information there would not seem to be detrimental.
• "Hakan Şükür is considered as the best there was for Turkey and absolutely one of the finest strikers European Cup football has witnessed. He is also considered by many to be the greatest individual athlete that the country has ever produced." - this should be removed, it reads too much like an opinion which is not what we are aiming for. If there were a quote out there from a reliable source saying something along those lines, I think we should definitely include it in the career section and attribute it as a specific experts opinion.
• I'm of the opinion that the Serie A and EPL lines should be removed from the intro, looking at the players career these were very minor stints (5 games in 1995 in the Serie A and 9 games in 2008 in the EPL). I think it should be mentioned that he appeared in 392 league games, or 545 games across league and cup games for Galatasaray (assuming the infobox and stat tables are correct) as this is a much more notable achievement. In general, the rest of the intro proposed by Vasco is cleaner, so I would be in favor of retaining most of the wording apart from that mentioned above and perhaps a slight tweak to wording of the fastest world cup goal.
• Can we get confirmation on the number of league goals scored with Sakaryaspor? The infobox says 19 but the statistics table says 10. We should verify which is correct and keep that text, along with fixing either the infobox or the table.
• The note on the specific manager that called the player up is better suited under the International career section.
• Let's remove "national giants" from Vasco's proposed edit but keep the rest of that section. The term is subjective and isn't precise.
• Can we confirm, did he help Galatasaray win the cup or the league in 95/96? The two versions say different things at the moment, so we have to get it right.
• We should wikilink ESM Golden Boot to European Golden Shoe to give context.
• "Şükür would win the Gol Kralı award the following two seasons, scoring 32 and 19 goals during the 1997–98 and 1998–99 seasons respectively, with Galatasaray winning the title in those two seasons." is a bit clearer with specific mentions of the years involved. I'd ideally use a mix of both versions here.
• Was he part of the 2ooo Super Cup winning team? One version includes this, but the other doesn't. We should include it if he was, leave it out if he wasn't. Otherwise prefer the wording from Vasco here for the most part.
• Prefer the wording in Redman's Inter section, "faring slightly better" and "underperforming" being subjective, although "Coming off several successful years with many trophies" should probably be removed as well.
• Definitely remove the bestfootballer.com line, looks to be a public voting site and not a reliable source
• Prefer the section from Vasco starting with "Şükür returned to Galatasaray", although I would remove "only" from the wording.
• The final line of the Club career section should probably include information on both the 05/06 season and the 07/08 season if he was part of the league winning team. I would be in favor of removing the slang phrase "hang up his boots" and replacing it with something more formal regarding retirement. The 38 European goals line looks out of place coming right after the post-career notes, we should find a better place for it.
• The "International career" section is best titled as such, for consistency with the "Club career" section.

Wow, I think that just about covers it. Let me know your thoughts, please get back to me on the important bolded questions, and if the response is positive, I'll go ahead and make the changes suggested above. Camw (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

The idea was to discuss the issues, not try to add sources yet, but can you tell me what makes that site a reliable source and please read what I said about making it a specific quote that is attributed to an expert, at the moment it still reads like something a fansite might say. The problem wasn't that there was no source, it was that the way it was worded does not comply with policy. Camw (talk) 14:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

• My inputs on your approach, point by point:

• 1 - Picture, sorted out;
• 2 - Statistics, also;
• 3 - Yes, it does not make the box longer (a bit it does!), but WP guidelines also say that birthplace should not be in intro, but body of article, where i had the full details about birthplace. OK, i can compromise on that one, no prob whatsoever;
• 4 - Here starts the big POV - saying over and over again how good Sukur was, when just once sufficed, i rephrased it, Redman reverted to his version - kind of like what he says i am doing! - period;
• 5 - I agree with you that his spells in Italy and England were very unassuming, will rephrase just one tiny bit and remove the rest;
• 6 - Goals for Sakaryaspor? The WWW.NATIONALFOOTBALLTEAMS.COM most of the times is dead-on in these situations, it says he got 19 in three seasons;
• 7 - Yes, Piontek should be mentioned in INT.CAREER, that's what i thought when relocating the info, Redman did not allow!;
• 8 - OK, i'll remove the bits "national giants" and akin in my approaches - even tough Galatasaray is one of the top three in Turkey - was and will be (?);
• 9 - No they did not! Wrong info again by Redman - please check the 1995/96 season wikilink at WP;
• 10 - Of course, the Golden Boot should be properly directed to its due wikilink, sorted;
• 11 - His "prowesses" from 1997-99: i tried to rephrase it, taking from here and there, Redman does not allow (have you been counting who has been removing more Camw?);
• 12 - No he did not win the 2000 UEFA Super Cup, he had left for Inter, so this does not have any relevance in Sukur's article, only in Galatasaray's IMO;
• 13 - I'll remove the subjective bits in his (second) Italian spell, sorted;
• 14 - I tried to remove the POVish approach in the BestFootballer.com lines, Redman did not allow, again!!;
• 15 - ?
• 16 - OK, i'll rephrase the text in his final years, no problem whatsoever, sorted;
• 17 - Yes, it should be CLUB CAREER and INTERNATIONAL CAREER, ask Redman why did he revert it;

• Will work again extensively in the article, trying to compromise will my opinions in all the aspects, respecting all the people involved (Red, Cam and myself). Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

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Yeshim Bayar Page 1

... says this, Resnjari :

…"I am Albanian, as such I am not a Turk." This line, quoted from a talk [Hakan Şükür] gave at a university, produced strong reactions the media, and soon Şükür was forced to clarify what he meant. He accused the media of taking his sentence out of context, stating that it was part of an answer to a question posed by a Kurdish student... Şükür had asserted "Racial narratives should be discarded to maintain national unity. If we embrace our fundamental differences as our divisions instead of our richness, we would lose. For example, I am of Albanian descent; from your point of view, I am not a Turk either." 

Şükür is not asserting an Albanian identity here (though also not denying it); he certainly is not denying himself a Turkish identity either. On the opposite, it is quite clear that he is instead actually asserting a Turkish identity preceding any Albanian (if any-- he only says "descent") and normatively asserting this should be so for the Kurdish too. If anything, this statement is a denial of the value (if not the authenticity) of Kurdish identity and by extention non-Turkish Albanian identity in Turkey. It is absolutely not what it was being portrayed on the page as. I think we need to either have the whole situation explained or none of it-- the previous version really is very misrepresentative on this BLP. Personally I don't think this belongs here; it says a lot more about Turkey than about Hakan Şükür, whose view is in fact very mainstream in Turkey and not that notable.--Calthinus (talk) 04:38, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Calthinus, i still don't see why we shouldn't have that in article. We can add more if you wish. Bayar is an academic and the source meets Wikipedia criteria. Sukur's comments did spark a debate as well and he did say the words "I am Albanian" in addition to his later clarification of being of Albanian descent. All Sukur's comments indicate is that he does not see ethnic heritage as being something that should divide Turkish society in being a Turk as well to maintain national unity. Sukur in no way rejected the premise that he was not of Albanian heritage or that he considered himself an Albanian (however he defines it for himself). Admissions of ethnic heritage in Turkey by people have gone between one end to another once more public avenues like the media or politics pick it up. The most prominent example being Erdogan who in 2000s admitted in Georgia he was of Georgian descent and in this decade recanting the whole thing as being made up by 'anti-Turkish elements' after it received public attention. Removing the sentence and source on Sukur does not suffice here.Resnjari (talk) 22:44, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

It is interesting material but imo it belongs more on a page about ethnicity in Turkey than on the personal page of this (living) man. As I said I'm fine with keeping it, but only if we actually go into detail about what actually happened, and especially don't only leave the quote in it's incorrect form where it makes it sound as if he doesn't have a Turkish identity (he absolutely does). In this quote he said "I am of Albanian descent" (in the English as rendered by Bayar this is "descent" -- not "heritage" -- they are different) as per Yeshim Bayar -- "I am Albanian", maybe he said that somewhere else but not in this quote. Previously the page said he said "I am an Albanian, therefore I am not a Turk" -- that gives a very different impression than what his obvious intention was. "Ethnic heritage shouldn't divide us" is basically the politically correct mainstream view in Turkey that everyone will say they hold (unless they are a Kurdish separatist or an MHP voter)-- again, that and that a controversy could break out about this in sensationalist media pertains much more to a page like Demographics of Turkey than to Hakan Sukur with his very white bread views. That he is of Albanian descent, that is notable and can stay (of course). --Calthinus (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

He does have Turkish identity (as all citizens of Turkey do), but in his comments of "I am Albanian, as such I am not a Turk" and references to "descent" was a second comment after his first, he has never discarded his association with Albanianess (if one can use that term). Further details are fine, but both his comments would need to be in the article, as per Bayar. In the end he said both, his comments sparked a larger discussion about identity in Turkey as a whole, and media backlash forced him to clarify. It was a important event that year in his life and we have Bayar which is an academic source, as opposed to tabloid media. About adding this to Demographics of Turkey is ok.Resnjari (talk) 00:21, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

1) As per Bayar, there was no second versus first comment. There was only ever one comment: "For example, I am of Albanian descent; from your point of view, I am not a Turk either". Crappy media butchered it, misunderstanding and scandal ensued, he called the media out, the media apologized and corrected itself. He only ever said one, the "second". This is all in Bayar page 1-2, which I own. The alleged "first statement" where he said he was an Albanian and not a Turk never happened, it was essentially a hoax.

2) This is a WP:BLP. "Insulting Turkishness" can land you in trouble as per a certain rather vague law still on the books in Turkey despite sustained international criticism. Theoretically. Now we have a situation here where the page said he said that, when the source cited explicitly contradicted that the statement had ever happened in reality. He is called a "Gulenist". Well Wiki will likely have little if any effect on his life given it is banned in Turkey, but, still, we should at least try to be ethical.

3) Off topic, but not everyone in Turkey has a Turkish identity, which is of course part of why this is such an issue. See also Kurdish nationalism, plus the "global citizens"/"humanists", Armenians, "Muslim only"s, a few Greeks, Syrians, etc...

4) I appreciate the notability of his relevance to the Albanian community. That can be mentioned. But not like this. --Calthinus (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Macedonian?

Şükür is of Albanian origin. Both his parents are immigrants from Yugoslavia, his father being born in Pristina, and his mother in Skopje. Both his parents from today Kosovo and North Macedonia. North Macedonia is independent state since 1991. 25% from its population are Albanians. He is not from Slav Macedonian origin. There are no sources supporting such view. Jingiby (talk) 04:05, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Terrorism

If Turkey charged him for terrorism through association with Gulen org, should we categorize his article that way? ౪ Santa ౪^99° 08:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)