Talk:Gender-critical feminism/Archive 6

Archive 1

←

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Conversion Therapy / Gender Identity Change Efforts

@Void if removed you reverted my recent addition to the article stating Remove not WP:DUE, WP:COATRACK, WP:NOTEVERYTHING, WP:POV material, argue for this in talk please.

• WRT WP:DUE - Gender-critical activists have very prominently and repeatedly opposed bans on gender identity change efforts (particularly in the UK). Kathleen Stock did so, and wrote about it, and we have a secondary source analyzing her argument against it (that respecting trans kids is actually sexual orientation change efforts). Whether or not you like it, it is a recognizable view and campaign platform of the GC movement covered in RS
• WRT WP:COATRACK - Material that is supported by a reliable, published source whose topic is directly related to the topic of the article, is not using the article as a coatrack. It clearly doesn't apply. Same for WP:NOTEVERYTHING.
• WRT WP:POV - how so? Is it not a neutral/verifiable statement that gender-critical groups have lobbied against bans on gender identity change efforts? Frankly, per WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV, the added text should have been more clear that conversion therapy does indeed include GICE regardless of what GC feminists say.

Since you removed 5 sentences and 6 sources, it would also help if actually listed specific objections relative to those instead of broad unsubstantiated complaints about the whole subsection. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Just want to state back up of this opinion and comment that I believe GC feminists have been against conversion therapy bans for trans youth in the UK for a couple of years by this point. LunaHasArrived (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Since it included content clearly tied back to the main subject of gender-critical feminism, I don't see a good reason for reverting the entire thing. I agree that if there are objections to specific parts, then it would be better to challenge those on a case-by-case basis. Hist9600 (talk) 21:05, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The information about supporting conversion therapy from GCs must be included in the article. It is obviously a significant fact. The academic sources: 1, 2. Reprarina (talk) 08:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

"Opposing bans on conversion therapy" is not equal to "supporting conversion therapy". Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 13:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Very true. It is important to be precise when editing Wikipedia. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• I think it's a reasonable paraphrase, but either way that's certainly not a strong enough objection to remove the entire section, especially since the section itself didn't say they supported conversion therapy. --Aquillion (talk) 05:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

So, my issues in turn.

1. This is supposedly an article about an "ism". The views of that "ism" should as far as possible reflect the views of the "ism", as sourced to multiple, reliable, independent sources. I don't think citing the views of one individual is enough to establish that this is the "views" of an "ism", especially when the phrasing is questionable, and especially when it is hard to extrapolate nuanced positions on specific legislative proposals to general opinions on general concepts. The idea that Kathleen Stock rejects Stonewall's interpretation of gender identity conversion therapy is reflective of gender-critical feminist opinion on conversion therapy as a whole is improper.

2. The continual widening of interpretation of "gender-critical feminism" to just anything "gender-critical" is improper and widens an makes an already overly broad article worse. So material about Genspect for example is not relevant (they are not a gender-critical feminist organisation). They have an article, and are already mentioned heavily across multiple other articles that touch on conversion therapy vs exploratory therapy, I'm not sure why it needs dragging in here too. Likewise talk of "gender-critical therapy" or a random noticeboard that just happens to have "gender-critical" in the name. None of these are anything to do with "gender-critical feminism" and again WP:NOTEVERYTHING.

3. The paraphrasing as "Gender Identity Change Efforts" is WP:POV. The UK gov did not remove "gender identity change efforts" from any proposed bill.

4. The material on Kathleen Stock is paraphrased, seeing as the article in question was actually about Stonewall's interpretation of gender identity conversion therapy. This is a complicated and nuanced difference of opinion expressed by a living person, and needs the strongest possible sources expressed in a fair and balanced way. On her article this is handled with a direct quote of her own words, which is fairer. Even so, I don't think that random opinions of individuals are the best way of establishing the "views" of an "ism". There is neither the space nor the reason to give a full rendition of the state of opinion on - very specifically - the UK government's proposed ban on conversion therapy here. For example, this submission by Labour Womens Declaration (arguably a gender-critical feminist organisation) amounts to: it is complex, wait for the Cass Review to finish.

So - you added one sentence saying what Kathleen Stock's opinion is, paraphrased in wikivoice instead of an attributed quote like on her own article. You added four further sentences not actually about the views of gender-critical feminists, but about:

• criticism of it via WP:RSOPINION rendered as wikivoice instead of attributed (one-sided, ignoring all the contradictory views, so there's no WP:BALANCE here).
• the UK gov flip flopping on legislation (doesn't seem WP:DUE here, there's not a lot of coverage, no direct mention of "gender-critical feminist/ism", but WRN are quoted as saying "Watching and waiting therapies are not 'conversion' and this bill obfuscated that fact.", so if it were due I think it would be via a quote like that at best IMO)
• The Trevor Project and Heron Greenesmith's opinions on conversion therapy that have nothing to do with gender-critical feminism
• Genspect's opinions on exploratory therapy, who aren't a gender-critical feminist org, and again why is this under the heading "conversion therapy".

Adding a contentious new section on the views of an "ism" where at least 80% of it doesn't describe the views of the "ism" is why I say this is WP:COATRACK stuff.

Personally I think a better way to deal with this would be a section elsewhere on responses to specific legislation, where that legislation was notable and covered in WP:RS, perhaps in this case in the "united kingdom" section. It is hard to extrapolate general views on "conversion" to specific bills in particular regions where what may be opposed is particular wording, not the practices, or the timing and lack of evidence. And again, those views should be attributed to specific organisations that are well-established as "gender-critical feminist" orgs.

So in the UK section, a paragraph about proposed conversion therapy ban and the feminist response to it would be possibly WP:DUE, as long as it didn't get derailed into reiterating every single exploratory vs conversion argument yet again here. Void if removed (talk) 10:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

1. We don't say it reflects it as whole, but every GC organization in the UK opposed the conversion therapy ban so it seems to be a unifying view
2. Please provide a single source corroborating the existence of a "gender-critical" movement larger than "gender-critical feminism".
3. That was the title of this talk page discussion and wasn't put in the article, but yes, they did remove that, that's literally what they did (the term GICE means conversion therapy on the basis of gender)
4. Stock has written on it repeatedly. Quoting her opinion piece on her article is bad writing. Quoting a reliable secondary source summarizing her arguments across multiple articles she wrote is much better.

• WP:RSOPINION does not mean "a reliable source said something I disagree with". It is a WP:RS. The characterization of Stock's views is fine. Per WP:FRINGE,
• Nearly all BBC coverage of the conversion therapy ban mentioned opposition from gender-critical groups
• Greenesmith links to an article explaining the change from "TERF" to "GC" when introducing the term... And the UK Government Equalities Office cited her on the growth of such boards.

Most of your points boil down to the second point you listed, and frankly it's a huge reach to say they're referring to something else by "gender-critical".

WRT moving to the UK Section, I don't think that's a good solution as there is indeed a recognizable view independent of the UK: ie affirming trans kids is actually SOCE, conversion therapy bans shouldn't include GICE as it's different from SOCE. Here's anther GC activist opposing the ban[1] and here's another one explicitly using the argument SOCE and GICE are different.[2]. Here's another source examining UK GC campaigning against conversion therapy bans/ the belief that affirming kids is actually conversion therapy.[3] Here's one on TERF activists in France opposing such bans on trans conversion therapy saying the same. [4] Here'sWomen's Declaration International arguing affirming trans kids is conversion therapy[5]. Here's one on arguing Raymond supported conversion therapy for trans people[6] Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, page 37 of this book analyzing GC feminism notes that LGB alliance calls affirming trans kids conversion therapy. [7] Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The material added under the heading ‘Conversion Therapy’ is about Conversion Therapy, on which we have an article. It is not about g-c feminism, which is the subject of this article. This is classic WP:COATRACK.

Also, the text about the UK government’s plans regarding banning conversion therapy is out of date – in December 2023 Kemi Badenoch announced plans to “bring forward a bill to ban conversion practices, which seek to change or suppress someone’s sexual orientation or gender identity.” See [8].

Sweet6970 (talk) 14:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

For the record, by that same line of reasoning, we should remove "Sex and gender" from "Views" too, since we have an article on it so it's coatrack apparently... The section added was about GC views on conversion therapy, not all of conversion therapy, in the same way we have a section on GC views on sex and gender in addition to an article on the sex-gender distinction. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:57, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

to YFNS: by that same line of reasoning… No, my reasoning is not that if we have an article on a subject, mentioning it in another article automatically makes this coatracking. My argument is that the material you added is about conversion therapy, and therefore should only be considered for inclusion in that article. It is not about g-c feminism, and therefore it does not belong in this article. Sweet6970 (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not about g-c feminism, and therefore it does not belong in this article Hard disagree. I've re-reviewed the content added by YFNS and content about gender-critical feminist views on conversion therapy is on topic for this article. A direct parallel here is the ex-gay movement. Their views on conversion therapy are off-topic for the conversion therapy article, and they are mentioned very briefly in that article's content in the ex-gay/ex-trans ministry section. But they are on-topic within the ex-gay movement article, where they are discussed in detail in the sexual orientation change efforts section. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:04, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

20% of the material was one person's opinion of one specific interpretation of gender identity conversion therapy, and not directly quoted like on their own article, but filtered via someone else's unattributed opinion of it.

80% of the material was not about gender critical feminist views, but tenuous other views and out-of-date/unsupported statements about the UK government's position on paraphrased "gender identity change efforts" etc. This is exactly what WP:COATRACK is about. And in any case this particular legislation has ample, and better, coverage here.

Ex-gay is not a good analogy, since the ex-gay movement is entirely about conversion therapy. That's the very core of what it believes to be possible and encourages or condones. Gender-critical feminism OTOH is not in any sense "about" conversion therapy. That individuals or groups may take issue with the wording of specific legislative proposals in one region is several steps removed from core beliefs or views.

If there was significant secondary coverage of actual gender critical feminist views on this topic, we'd be able to use those sources. And even if so, this is a nuanced subject that needs approaching fairly, their opinions need to be given ample space in their specific context, and not taking one person's indirectly-presented opinions about one legislative proposal as a launching point for a bunch of other material, presented as if this is the "views" of an "ism" about "conversion therapy" as a whole. Void if removed (talk) 10:58, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm skeptical of your framing of actual gender critical feminist views; we do have coverage of actual gender-critical views on the topic, that's what the sources you're objecting to are. The section cites secondary coverage of prominent gender-critical figures and campaigns in-depth, including via high-quality academic sources. There may be room for improvement, of course, using sources that discuss the broader topic, but given the amorphous nature of these sort of movements, covering the views of prominent figures and major activists is appropriate, and indeed, the way this section does so is comparable to several of the other view sections; given the breadth and quality of coverage, I don't think you've successfully made the argument that it ought to be omitted entirely or that there were serious problems with it in its current form. And a quick nose-count in this discussion shows a general consensus for inclusion in some form, so I've restored the section for now. --Aquillion (talk) 05:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

How is a footnote quoting the Trevor Project in passing calling something undefined and unverifiable "gender-critical therapy" a reflection of "gender-critical feminist views on conversion therapy"? Especially when that footnote points to an archived page that no longer exists and was deleted in 2021?

When the latest Trevor Project report on conversion therapy doesn't mention "gender critical therapy" at all?

If this was a widespread viewpoint of gender-critical feminism - the subject of this page - to the point of specifically advocating "gender-critical therapy" as a form of conversion therapy, why is this source so tenuous? Why is there not a single gender-critical source - feminist or otherwise - advocating "gender-critical therapy" anywhere that I can find?

Why, when I search for "gender-critical therapy" is the oldest usage I can spot an opinion piece by Gemma Stone, not reporting that that is actually a practice, but coining it to refer to something they are criticising? That is, in response to an attempt to create a list of gender critical therapists, Stone repeats activist warnings about "gender-critical therapy"?

In fact what seems to have happened is Stella O'Malley tweeted "I hate the phrase gender critical but I am making a list! A large number of people contact me seeking help and I don’t know enough Irish therapists who can provide compassionate and nuanced therapy."

And a number of opponents tweeted that "gender critical therapy is conversion therapy" and now this particular myth is here, constructed from one WP:PARTISAN opinion piece based on hostile tweets, a long-deleted Trevor Project page, and an article in Teen Vogue.

This looks like the only ones using the term "gender critical therapy" are opponents, which got into a Trevor Project page temporarily and is now removed and never mentioned again I am guessing because it doesn't actually exist.

Digging even deeper - the other citation used here is a GEO report. This says nothing about gender-critical therapy. However it does say - in the footnotes again - "For instance, there have been reports of people sharing lists online of therapists for parents of transgender children seeking non-affirming therapists (Greenesmith, 2020; ILGA, 2020)" so nothing about gender-critical feminism or therapy at all, so this it WP:SYNTH based on the fact that it cites Greensmith's Teen Vogue piece again, making this redundant. It also cites an ILGA report which bases its claim on the Gemma Stone article in the Independent.

There's nothing here. There is no independent corroboration of any of this, no source outside of the Stone opinion piece and the Greensmith Teen Vogue piece, which are demonstrably using their own terminology, not describing anything actually offered with the name "gender-critical therapy".

Assembling this kind of WP:SYNTH from fragments of primary sources, deleted self-published sites and WP:PARTISAN opinion pieces is completely wrong.

Compare this approach to sourcing to the dozen or so high quality and unambiguous sources and 9 days on and off discussion it took simply to amend this page with media coverage of highly relevant legal rulings. I don't think incredibly contentious and inflammatory material based on a three-year-old partially-deleted game of telephone belongs here, frankly. Void if removed (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

When the latest Trevor Project report on conversion therapy doesn't mention "gender critical therapy" at all? Maybe because that newer report doesn't enumerate all of the alternative names for it. It only explicitly mentions the reparative therapy, ex-gay, and unwanted same-sex attraction alternate names. But we know from other sources that there are other names, especially when the practice is targeted at specific demographics like trans and non-binary people.

And a number of opponents tweeted that "gender critical therapy is conversion therapy" and now this particular myth is here, constructed from one WP:PARTISAN opinion piece based on hostile tweets, a long-deleted Trevor Project page, and an article in Teen Vogue. It's not a myth, it's an alternate name. Also your timeline doesn't take into account the ILGA's February 2020 report on conversion therapy], which predates the Trevor Project report by about a year, and the Teen Vogue piece by about four months.

based on hostile tweets, If we're going down the OR rabbit hole, which is fine on a talk page but not on an article, then we need to go deeper. Looking at the archive you provided, O'Malley's tweet (3 February 2020) was a quote retweet of one by Graham Linehan (3 February 2020) where he said that O'Malley was trying to assemble a list of Irish gender critical therapists as a resource for parents (emphasis mine). Linehan's tweet predates Quibilah1's by a day, but there's more. After doing a search on Twitter, the oldest tweet I was able to find that uses the term was from June 2018 from someone who seems to be a gender-critical activist or supporter. Maybe there's older tweets than this, Twitter's search function isn't the greatest at the best of times and has only gotten worse since Elon's takeover. But with the term gender-critical only coming into existence circa 2016 it seems unlikely. Stating that the term was based on hostile tweets does not stand up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

This looks like the only ones using the term "gender critical therapy" are opponents, which got into a Trevor Project page temporarily and is now removed and never mentioned again I am guessing because it doesn't actually exist. And ex-gay ministries is a term used by conversion therapy proponents. That doesn't preclude it being a valid alternate name to describe what is the same overall type of pseudoscientific practices couched in therapeutic language. There are also still contemporary examples of the term being used as one of the alternate names for conversion therapy. For example, a September 2023 article on The Therapist written by a licensed psychologist mentions the term as one of several alternate names for conversion therapy. As does this UNDP handbook (page 17) April 2023.

Assembling this kind of WP:SYNTH from fragments of primary sources SYNTH only applies to us as enwiki editors, and like all of our policies does not apply to the sources that we use. Indeed synthesising information from primary sources is the expected role and function of any reliable secondary source on a given topic. Please stop trying to apply our policies to content that appears in reliable sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I cited the ILGA report. I pointed out it is cited by the GEO report. I said It also cites an ILGA report which bases its claim on the Gemma Stone article in the Independent.. The usage in the ILGA report is based on:

• Stone's opinion piece
• The GCN story about O'Malley
• A medium blogpost

Forgive me if I don't consider this to be the strongest sourcing.

I'm not engaging in WP:OR. I'm verifying what the sources say. When sources are simply repeating other sources, they're not independent and there's no point adding them as additional citations. And I specifically didn't search for earlier tweets - I looked at the ones mentioned by the supposed WP:RS.

And when you drill down into the opinion piece that seems to be the original basis, the phrasing "gender critical therapy" comes from twitter criticism of O'Malley and Linehan. A list of "gender critical therapists" is a different thing to alleging there is such a thing as "gender-critical therapy", and even more so to claim any of this is WP:DUE for an article that is about "gender critical feminism", in a section about "conversion therapy".

What this is is opponents hyperbolic views expressed on social media of therapists who are gender-critical, via a broken telephone. This is not gender-critical feminist views on conversion therapy. Void if removed (talk) 18:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm verifying what the sources say. That is not how WP:V works. V starts and ends with the source that's being cited and asks if it contains the information that supports our content. For example, if we're citing a source that says the sky is blue, then we verify that by checking if the source contains content that supports that assertion. There is however an acceptable limit for how far someone may reasonable question the validity of what most other contributors consider to be reliable sources. And saying that a report by a major international human rights organisation like the ILGA is invalid because of what it cites is kinda over that limit. A better way to dispute the validity of the ILGA report would be to cite another report by a reputable organisation or a peer reviewed research paper that disputes it. Bonus points if that report or paper disputes the content you're finding objectionable.

When sources are simply repeating other sources, they're not independent That is not how WP:INDY works. An independent source is one that is not closely affiliated with a subject. The citations that a source may or may not use for its content do not determine its independence. For example Ray Blanchard would not be considered independent from James Cantor, because they regularly collaborate on research papers. However someone else, unconnected to Blanchard or Cantor, citing Blanchard's work as an example of "here's something this other study found" would be considered independent from Blanchard. If we were to use your definition of independence, a great many research papers published in reputable journals would be considered non-independent, not to mention a great deal of news and current event coverage, because they repeat what other sources have said.

And when you drill down into the opinion piece that seems to be the original basis, the phrasing "gender critical therapy" comes from twitter criticism of O'Malley and Linehan. No, it doesn't. As I said in my reply above, the oldest use of the term "gender critical therapy" that I could find on Twitter was from 18 June 2018, by someone who is either a gender-critical activist or supporter, when they were criticising the then recently published 2018 Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines for trans and gender diverse children and adolescents and its content on conversion therapy. It is incorrect to say that the original basis for the term comes from criticism of O'Malley and Linehan's tweets on 3 February 2020. The term predates those tweets by approximately two years and was used in context to describe conversion therapy. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:46, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The source used in our article regarding ‘gender critical therapy’ says that ‘gender critical therapy’ is just a name for conversion therapy. The source doesn’t even say that ‘gender critical therapy’ exists, still less does it say that it has anything to do with gender-critical feminism. So the source is basically saying that ‘gender-critical therapy’ does not exist. So there is no reason to mention this in our article. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, gender critical therapy is another name for conversion therapy, I don't think anyone here has disputed that. So is gender-exploratory therapy, reparative therapy, ex-gay ministries, and about a dozen other terms. However unless you're going to dispute the existence of conversion therapy, it is erroneous to say that it does not exist. Briefly mentioning it, as we do, seems due to me.

Though I would also suggest expanding further upon the gender exploratory therapy content, as that too is another name for the same thing, and one that has somewhat more use by both its proponents within the gender-critical movement and opponents outside it. At least one source, a 2023 report by Tranzycja (a collaborative knowledge project between Stonewall Poland and Fundation Kohezja) has mentioned that the GET term has superseded all of the previous terms in use, and there may be other more reliable sources that state the same thing. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

gender critical therapy is another name for conversion therapy

It is a term those sources are using. They don't describe it beyond that - it just means that The Trevor Project and ILGA are calling conversion therapy "gender critical therapy". That's it.

Which means that what this is is those sources' opinions on conversion therapy. This is not gender critical feminist views on conversion therapy. The sources are the only ones calling conversion therapy, gender-critical therapy.

This is backwards.

In order for this to be relevant you first have to establish from WP:RS that "gender-critical therapy" is actually a coherent thing, that is advanced, advocated or in some way directly related to "gender-critical feminism". This material could then be offered in response to it - but it does not, on its own, establish relevance or notability.

unless you're going to dispute the existence of conversion therapy, it is erroneous to say that it does not exist

That's false logic. It is completely possible to dispute that anybody, anywhere actually offers such a thing as "gender-critical therapy" and that the term is merely a label used by opponents of "gender-critical" beliefs more generally, while accepting that conversion therapy is a thing.

Please give a one line description of what "gender-critical therapy" is and how it relates to "gender-critical feminism".

Here's what the currently offered sources say:

• ILGA -

Activists and survivors have pointed out that the term “gender critical therapy” is a term used to refer to a form of “conversion therapy” practiced on trans youth

• Deleted Trevor Project Page -

“Conversion therapy” can come in many forms and is sometimes known by other names, including: “gender critical therapy”

• The Therapist website:

Conversion therapy, also known as reparative therapy, gender critical therapy, or sexual reorientation, refers to a set of harmful practices that attempt to alter a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

• The UNDP handbook:

Conversion therapy: An umbrella expression to refer to any sustained effort to modify a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. Other terms include: “reparative therapy”, “gay cure”, “ex-gay therapy”, “gender critical therapy”

So what is it? "Gender critical therapy is conversion therapy" is a tautology. Unless it exists outside of this claim, it does not actually exist - it is just a label applied to conversion therapy by these sources, that's all.

We can find actual WP:SECONDARY sources about practitioners using the other terms to obfuscate conversion therapy. As such, if the subject of an article actually espouses "reparative therapy", we should be able to a) source them advocating it and b) respond to that with these sources saying it is really conversion therapy per WP:BALANCE.

What we cannot find is any source actually connected to the subject of this article calling for "gender-critical therapy". What is happening here is the "balancing" viewpoint is being used as its own justification for inclusion, with nothing to actually balance.

This is why I say it is not WP:DUE. The opinions of these sources are irrelevant to gender critical feminist views on conversion therapy, because all they are is the sources' views on conversion therapy. If you have WP:RS of gender critical feminists advocating gender-critical therapy, saying what it actually is, you could argue these would be appropriate WP:BALANCE but as things stand this is WP:COATRACK material.

By analogy, this whole exercise is like relying on this source:

I cannot stomach the thought of allowing my own labours to feed a press willing to lend its reputation to 'gender critical' fascism.”

To add a section on "Fascism" in views, with the implication there is such a thing as "gender critical fascism", that is somehow espoused by gender critical feminists.

Except at least this is a reasonably recent WP:SECONDARY source and hasn't been deleted.

I would also suggest expanding further upon the gender exploratory therapy

And I don't think the answer to a WP:COATRACK is to put more coats on it. Void if removed (talk) 10:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I add my voice to Void’s request: Please give a one line description of what "gender-critical therapy" is and how it relates to "gender-critical feminism". Sweet6970 (talk) 19:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

One sentence, drawing from the sources: gender-critical therapy is a form of conversion therapy targeted at transgender youth which presupposes a pathological cause for being trans (autism, misogyny, homophobia, social contagion, take your pick of ridiculous claims) and has been advertised through online forums which share lists of "gender-critical" therapists who will refuse to affirm their trans patient's identity.

• An additional explanatory sentence per the Tranzycja report: it was pushed by groups like gender-critical groups like SEGM and Genspect and figures like O'Malley, though has been superseded by the more recent term "exploratory therapy"

We already have sources in the article detailing how a prominent GC position is "respecting trans kids is actually conversion therapy since they're just traumatized, gay, autistic, or whatever else we can try and blame", they support criminalizing trans kids transitioning, and oppose bans on conversion therapy because they believe trans kids should instead be treated for whatever pathology "made" them trans...

1. These are extremely WP:FRINGE positions.
2. It provides obvious relevance to the related fact there are boards advertising GC therapists who hold these views to prevent trans kids from transitioning.

Saying "Gender critical therapy is conversion therapy" is a tautology makes no sense to me. ILGA is clear in their section that[9]:

• There is no one single term consistently and universally adopted to denote attempts to modify a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. It then goes into different examples and the historical context of each term like "conversion therapy", "Reparative therapy", "ex-gay therapy", "gender-critical therapy" etc.
• Activists and survivors have pointed out that the term “gender critical therapy” is a term used to refer to a form of “conversion therapy” practiced on trans youth It then notes Stella O'Malley, who wrote for a book calling trans kids an "ideology" and "dangerous", made a compilation of gender-critical therapists

And here's some quotes from the TeenVogue piece[10]:

• The names being recommended on the Gender Critical Support Board include psychiatrists, endocrinologists, pediatricians, and therapists. The thread tying them together is their commitment to “gender criticism,” a term that’s morphed from its introduction in women’s and gender studies departments into a dog whistle for anti-trans-affirming activists. (link to article explaining the change from TERF to GC in original)
• The Gender Critical Support Board was founded in part by an anonymous internet user who goes by the name Gender Critical Dad or GCDad. Gender Critical Dad is active in gender-critical spaces on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, on his own blog, and, of course, on the comment board he founded.
• But a fundamental rejection of trans identity is the end goal of so many of the other “gender-critical” therapists, pediatricians, counselors, and endocrinologists whose names are passed around by members of the board.

The sources are so obviously talking about the GC feminist movement that your walls of text to the contrary are getting into WP:IDHT territory, if they aren't already there. Please answer my earlier question, what gender-critical movement are they all referring to if not the subject of this article? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a lot of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. What is "gender-critical therapy"? It is apparently a term for conversion therapy. Who uses it and what do they describe with it?

For example, reparative therapy has a history, and literature, of advocates and practitioners. We can find people describing what they mean by it, as advocates of the practice, and we can find critics, and now a consensus that it is a harmful, conversion practice.

Your "wall of text" OTOH makes clear that no such resource exists for "gender-critical therapy". This is a term invented by, and used exclusively by, critics of therapists who are "gender-critical". Which makes it not a "view of gender critical feminism" at all.

None of this belongs here. Void if removed (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a lot of ... WP:OR Citing information that is present in reliable sources is not OR. It is the anthesis of OR. As WP:NOR policy states in its second sentence On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. (emphasis from original text).

This is a lot of WP:SYNTH I would ask you to please elaborate on this, as there does not appear to be synthesis here. However as SYNTH is a part of WP:NOR, and there does not appear to be OR here, there also cannot be SYNTH here.

What is "gender-critical therapy"? It is apparently a term for conversion therapy. I said this in my reply on two days ago on 23 January. It is an alternate name for conversion therapy.

Who uses it and what do they describe with it? Both gender-critical supporters and their opponents have used the term. For use by the opponents, see the sources that YFNS has provided and we've already discussed. For the supporters, I demonstrated in my comment on 23 January that the earliest use of the term I could find on Twitter was from 2018, and posted by a gender-critical activist. An October 2020 article by PinkNews mentioned that the now defunct Canadian anti-trans organisation We The Females were at one point a proponent for gender-critical therapy. We know from the TeenVogue article, the term was used by parents seeking support on the Gender Critical Support Board, though linking to specific instances of that is impossible as while the forum still exists, most of it is in a private member's only area.

Part of the difficulty in identifying proponents is that the terminology shifted shortly after the tweets by Linehan and O'Malley, with the current term for the same thing is gender exploratory therapy (GET). This difficulty is compounded by some gender-critical organisations, like the aforementioned We The Females, becoming defunct and being replaced by others, often with the same people involved. Of course, for our purposes that doesn't really matter too much. All that matters is what reliable sources, like the ILGA report and UNDP handbook state. And in this case, they describe gender-critical therapy as an alternative name for conversion therapy.

This is a term invented by, and used exclusively by, critics of therapists who are "gender-critical". Not only is this demonstrably not true, see the rest of my reply above, it also doesn't matter. The purpose of an article on Wikipedia is to cover all of the mainstream and significant minority viewpoints on a topic, as published in reliable sources. One of the viewpoints on this topic is that gender-critical feminists and activists promote what is understood to be conversion therapy, even if they don't call it conversion therapy. At one point this was called gender-critical therapy, then the terminology shifted and now it's called GET. It's entirely possible that in another few years, the terminology might shift again to some other name.

Currently we have two sentences on gender critical therapy. One summarising the Trevor Project and ILGA reports, and one summarising the TeenVogue report. In the overall sense of that section, that seems due, given that this was a relatively short lived name, and a small part of the overall story on gender-critical support for conversion therapy. The only thing we lack is a source that gives a timeline of the terminological shift. Conversely we only have a single sentence on GET, and that is something I think we could expand to be a full paragraph or more in its own right, based on the multitude of academic and other sources about the gender-critical movement being a major proponent for it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Sweet6970, you just removed a paragraph about GC opposition to the UK conversion therapy ban including protections for trans people stating removing out of date material – see Talk page, my comment 14:19 21 January 2024, with the link to the news story. The article does not mention GC feminism once, and is unrelated to the statement you removed. Please self-revert, as the fact the government has once again U-turned on it's position has nothing do with what GC feminists campaigned for it to be (as reported in multiple RS, see my earlier comment to VIR). "A asked B to do C; later B did D" in absolutely no way means "A asked B to do C" is somehow false or out of date... No issue with adding a sentence after the one you removed like Kemi Badenoch later announced that she planned to ban conversion therapy and suggested gender-affirming care could be considered a "new form of conversion therapy" for gay kids, stating "no child is born in the wrong body".[11][12] Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The material I removed is out of date trivia. See WP:NOTNEWS. And the stuff about Kemi Badenoch is also trivia. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:33, 23 January 2024 (UTC)