Talk:Saint Thomas Christian cross

Started this article

Just started with this article.There arent any copy right volations, please dont start deletion. Tarijanel 21:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Improvements in Article

Please discuss improvements in article.Tarijanel (talk) 02:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

POV-title

The title Stone crosses of Kerala fits better than Rock crosses of Kerala. Moreover, the name used in its inscriptions is Stone cross. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Why did you remove informations provided in the article. Can you explain about the inscriptions. Pamparam (talk) 08:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I have renamed the title to Ancient Crosses of India. These Crosses are in Kerala, Goa and Tamil Nadu.The earlier title as Kerala Crosses was not appropriate.Pamparam (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Christian or non-Christian Crosses

This article Ancient crosses of India throws some doubts.

Till the middle of last century these crosses were known as Persian crosses. Now they are known as Saint Thomas Cross or Nasrani Menorah. Why is this change?

How is it possible to compare a cross with a Menorah?

In the article Nasrani Menorah it says that it is the symbol of Knanaya. If I am not mistaken these crosses are found in Knanaya churches. Am I correct?

The inscriptions on the crosses at Kottayam and Mylapore are not in any South Indian script but in the Persian Pahlavi scripts. Do these crosses belong to a Persian church or Persian religion?

Where in the Bible you find that Paraclete descend on the cross of Jesus?

Does this cross originally belonged to the followers of some other religion? Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

1) Who said this crosses were known as Persian Crosses. What is your source on this ? This article itself mentions about 16th century document which calls the Cross as Saint Thomas Cross. Do you have any old documents which calls it as Persian Cross ?

2) It is stupid to compare this Cross with Menorah. Such comparisons are absolute wrong ramblings. Ask sources to those who make such comparison.

3)It was never any symbol of Knanaya, if you mean the Southists. Out of the many Churches which are listed in article only Kottayam Church is under Southists. The history of Kottayam Church is obscure with a foundation date of 17th century begining. Where did you get the notion about Southists when all the other Churches are non Southist ?

4) One of the cross has Syriac inscriptions as well. Would that make you to ask if it was of followers of some Syriac Church. You might need to read some basics about Christianity in India rather than relying on your obscure so called independant research ? I dont know if you can claim the Pre- 16th century christians in Kerala as followers of different religion to a comparison with the 21st century Protestants found in Kerala.

Pamparam (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

I hate it when other people tag articles for improvement & do nothing else -- but I honestly don't know where to start on this one. It's a fascinating topic, the opening paragraphs aren't bad (although they could definitely be better) -- but then it goes rapidly downhill. The section "Trinitarium" is an unsourced rambling essay about the possible origins of these crosses -- or at least a native explanation of them; I don't know whether to drastically rewrite it or just remove it. The section "Interpretation of the Inscriptions" is a non sequitor: do all of these crosses have the same inscription, or just one or two of them have the inscriptions translated here? (If so, which ones? What language is this inscription in? Are the inscriptions difficult to read?) And then there are issues with the language, which is sometimes inappropriate for an encyclopedia, & sometimes just baffling. Could someone who knows someone about the subject -- & can a good article -- have a go at this article? Otherwise, a less sympathetic editor might just decide to take a sharp scalpel to this & simply remove what can't be easily fixed. -- llywrch (talk) 17:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I have removed many of the unsourced materials. Only two of the crosses has inscription. The oldest in India is at Madras. The Goan Cross also claims same antiquity. The inscriptions are in Pahlavi. One of the cross also has a Syriac inscription which is a Galations quotation. The issues in reading the inscriptions are common with ealy Pahlavi writings.

This is a very fascinating topic as you mentioned. Even each of the free standing crosses has its own history. I hope some one with time and information will update more on this .

Pamparam (talk) 03:19, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I have seen some of these crosses mentioned in this article and have also made an independent study on them. In fact this article is biased, needs to be overhauled and cannot be corrected section by section. There is no mention of the ancient crosses of India, but this article is only about the stone crosses of india.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you point out what are the wrong information in the article ?. The issue with you is lack of basic understanding about Christianity in India. It can be corrected by reading scholalry research than using your obscure independant research.Pamparam (talk) 03:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the section "Trinitarium" which are off ramblings. Features about these crosses appeared in many history journals including oxford.Pamparam (talk) 03:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Nasrani Menorah

The term Nasrani Menorah is a recently coined word. (less than 50 (?) years). Earlier these crosses were known as Persian Crosses. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Integrity of this article

I have doubts about the integrity of this article. Is this really worth to be included in an encyclopedia?

1. According to this article, this cross is called Saint Thomas Cross, Mar Thoma Cross, Nasrani Menorah, and so on. Like many other St. Thomas Christians in Kerala, I knew this cross only as Persian Cross.
2. In the File:St. Thomas Cross.jpg, it says that it represents the branched Jewish menorah. The six branches, (three branches on either side of the cross) represents God as the burning bush. According to Dictionary, a Menorah is a ceremonial seven-branched candelabrum of the Jewish Temple symbolizing the seven days of the Creation. Does this statement in the File, means that this cross is a lamp?
3. Location of the Saint Thomas Crosses: Kottayam Valiapally belongs to the Knanaya Church, Kadamattom Church was founded by a priest /bishop from Persia. All the other churches belong to the Roman Catholic Church. Are they all St. Thomas Christians?
4. The File:St. Thomas Cross.jpg is not a complete photograph of the cross. The inscriptions that are missing are in Sassanian Language. (See File:Kottayam Valia Palli02.jpg). It is neither in Aramiac nor in Syriac, the languages used by St. Thomas Christians. (I am not forgetting the Syriac inscription on the cross at Kottayam which was made at a later date on a different type of stone). At no time in South India, Sassanian was used as an Indian language,
5. What is this Paraclete doing on the cross? When Jesus was on the cross did any Paraclete appear? Neduvelilmathew (talk) 07:12, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

                                There was a gnostic cult that wa teaching Holy Spirit abandoned to Jesus on the Cross, because this many Christians painted and sculpted to Dove of Holy Spirit on the Cross.  Read theology and history of church books, please.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.248.203.74 (talk) 14:22, 28 September 2016 (UTC) 

Category:Salvation in Catholicism

The WP article has been linked to Category:Salvation in Catholicism because the subject matter is the principal symbol that is historically associated to one of the twelve Apostles and bishops who were ordered by the Lord Jesus and who founded the Catholic Apostolic Church. Each of them was assigned to a different Apostolic See and was inspired by the Holy Spirit God to write a faith article of the Apostolic Creed. Regards, Theologian81sp