Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/Society/Archive 5

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Add Physiocracy

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Physiocracy, an 18th-century economic theory, significantly influenced modern economic thought. By highlighting agriculture's importance in wealth creation and advocating for minimal government intervention, it laid the groundwork for capitalist ideologies and emphasized natural economic laws. Its impact on shaping economic theories and policies makes it a vital inclusion in discussions surrounding foundational economic concepts.

Support

1. As nominator; glaring omission. The Blue Rider 17:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Changing to support, while unknown to me (and I am financial by background), I see that is it considered the first scientific school of economics. Definite Level 5. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

   Yes, thank you. It was a pioneering school. The Blue Rider 17:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Conditional support if there is quota. Historically important but borderline economic history trivia IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

   Definitely not trivia, one of the most fundamental and influential economic schools of thought. The Blue Rider 17:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

4. Per The Blue Rider. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Not sure it is so well known now; notable but not vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

55 interwikis makes it certainty well known. Furthermore, François Quesnay  5, Richard Cantillon  5, Jean-Baptiste Colbert  5 and Anne Robert Jacques Turgot  5 are all physiocrats. I will be baffled if this doesn't pass. The Blue Rider 21:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Troika (dance)

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Another regional dance (Russian) with less then a century of history. Stub with nothing suggesting vitality. 7 interwikis and just 16 daily pageviews. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Telstra

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An internet service provider and mobile network operator which operates in a country of 27 million people, not even big enough to appear on List of mobile network operators. Has regional significance at best.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak Support. Pretty important ISP and largest non-American/non-European ISP in terms of autonomous system (Internet) cone size. But I do think Siemens below is more important so will vote to remove so we have space. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:33, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 03:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support not vital. Gizza (talk) 09:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Household items

Since Everyday life is under quota (1186/1200) and Household items is under (75/80) I propose the following items

Add Picnic table

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. While Table (furniture)  4 is V4, I am not convinced we need to link table variations at V5. What makes picnic table vital? Is this a global concept? What other tables are already vital? Analysis is missing here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   User:Piotrus, The reason I proposed it was because we are under quota and I consider it of similar vitality to other table variations Coffee table  5 and Nightstand  5 when I looked at Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Everyday_life#Furniture_and_interior_design_(44_articles)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger I think coffee table is enough. I'd rather use the quota on something significantly different, and if we cannot come up with anything, relocate the quota. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

• Picnic is a better candidate to list. The Blue Rider 13:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  This is the Furniture and interior design subsection of Household items that we are filling in. That would be in the Recreation and tourism section. I don't really see it as a substitute in this context.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  @The Blue Rider @TonyTheTiger I'd support picnic, do ping me if anyone adds the relevant propsoal :) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Loveseat

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 6 interwikis, this does not seem very cross-cultural. We already have Couch  4. starship.paint (RUN) 16:18, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

   Well, I had never heard of Divan (furniture).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

   Then perhaps we can remove Divan. We should remove weak entries and adjust the quotas later on, you know several other categories are over quota. starship.paint (RUN) 02:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

2. I am not convinved we need this. Couch  4 is enough. Sure, couch is V4 but again, what makes this subtype of couch vital/global/etc.? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 04:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Dressing table

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Historical and still to some degree contemporarily important furniture, it was status of wealth and power. The Blue Rider 02:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I can't see this as vital. Minor furniture. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
2. per above. It's a table with a mirror, and some drawers maybe. starship.paint (RUN) 12:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. I would add Make-up artist  5 before this. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Sunlounger

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. If anything, we should list Deckchair first (22:3 interwikis, longer, and I don't see the difference - will propose merger). Not that I am convinced this is vital (no rationale from the nom). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   User:Piotrus, A sunlounger is a reclined seat. Your feet are on the same level with your butt. Your feet are on the ground in a deck chair.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:24, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   User:Piotrus, I think the problem is the Sunlounger main image. See new candidates at Talk:Sunlounger-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   Thank you. I hope this lead to the improvement of one or both pages, but I think sunlounger is a very niche variant of the deckchair. The latter may be vital, perhaps, but I very much doubt we need this variant of it at V5. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:27, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

   User:Piotrus, Any photo preference.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

   I have swapped in two. I wish the article had enough content to support a few more images.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

2. Too niche. starship.paint (RUN) 12:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Folding chair and/or Deckchair

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Conditional support. Popular types of furniture today and for at lest century+. Folding chair sems to have more of a history if the undersourced article is to be believed. Deckchair has more interwikis. Could add both IF there's room in the quota, I guess.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support both--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support Folding chair only. Popular furniture. starship.paint (RUN) 13:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Deckchair, it is a form of folding chair, and we're likely to go over quota with all the proposals. starship.paint (RUN) 13:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose Deckchair per above. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:35, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Filing cabinet

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Since we are under quota, I'll see if this one gets support too. Cabinetry  4 is listed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak support since if we are under quota, why not for now. This is common enough in modern offices. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Why not? Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per LaukkuTheGreit. feminist🚰 (talk) 03:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

4 interwikis is rather low, hmm.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Fire alarm system

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Assuming you meant the system per Kammerer55, and I concur this is a vital concept related to modern living for V5. That said, I am concerned with overlap here with smoke detector proposed below. Do we need both of those at V5? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Important part of modern buildings. I'm okay with both this and smoke detector in V5. starship.paint (RUN) 12:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• It currently redirects to Fire alarm system. Did you mean to propose that article instead? --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  • I've BOLDly changed the proposal. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
    • When I was at Talk:Fire alarm, I did not notice that the subject was a redirect. I just noticed it was not vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:39, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Smoke detector

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Basic device that most buildings should have. --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Weak support. I agree but I am a bit concerned with significant overlap with Fire alarm proposed above. One of those may need to be cut. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Fire hydrant

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Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Sure, important part of modern landscapes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
6. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Divan (furniture)

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Suggested above by User:Starship.paint. We have Couch  4. Why do we need this specific type that I have never heard of?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Not common, not significant. If we wanted to consider sysbias, we could consider a swap for Persian carpet. Note that Carpet  4 is V4 and across most of the world, this is what divan is. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

   I'm confused about the divan–carpet comparison. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

   @J947 pl:Dywan made me confused I think. This (divan (f)) has no pl interwiki and I never heard this term used in English... could be my regional bias. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Weak support: think there's list space for one of this and Ottoman (furniture)  5, which seems slightly more vital. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Accident

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Something that happens to pretty much everybody.

Support

1. as nom 115.188.140.167 (talk) 20:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
2. This concept should likely be V4... 74 interwikis. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:30, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Crédit Agricole

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I'm not seeing the need to include two French banks at the moment.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose – the world's largest cooperative financial institution and almost as big as the other French bank (BNP Paribas), while still having historical importance. With 22 banks listed, it's not too egregious to list both IMO. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add popculture concepts

Add Mecha

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Spin-off from some discusions above: important concept for modern popculture. Anime/manga, but also went beyond that (BattleTech, a ton of video games...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
2. A pretty famous genre with impact beyond just anime - shows up in video games & wider culture as well. SnowFire (talk) 19:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 † ^edits 01:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Borderline vital. The Blue Rider 12:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
5. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 15:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Catgirl

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Having suggested mecha, I thought - what other concept defines anime/manga? Doh. And yes, the article is not great, this is better covered under the serious name of Moe anthropomorphism, but let's face it - nobody but scholars knows the technical term for what is a very widely known trope, at least among geeks/nerds and like. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think Moe would be the animanga concept to add rather than Moe anthropomorphism or Catgirl.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

   @LaukkuTheGreit: Fair point, will add below. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

   @SnowFire @J947 since you commented on mecha - I've added some additional concepts below. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

2. Mecha is a whole genre. Catgirl is just one trope. SnowFire (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Not sure this is widespread enough (outside of anime) to add here, nyaa. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Moe (slang)

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Per above, important concept in Japanese culture and global popculture as well. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It was a big thing from, what, 2005-2010? At least as a full genre. Don't think it makes VA5 criteria though, I'd pick specific animes instead if there's a desire to expand coverage there. SnowFire (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per SnowFire feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per SnowFire starship.paint (RUN) 02:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Kawaii

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Just like above, important concept in Japanese culture and global popculture as well. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Japanese popular culture

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Parent to the above, the impact of Japanese pop culture on world pop culture is gigantic. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Notable impact. starship.paint (RUN) 15:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
4. This is fair for VA5. SnowFire (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Consider also moving Tokusatsu to be a child of this 3df (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add magical girl

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From the discussion in anime and manga section, several people suggested this should be vital and I concur. Influential genra (Sailor Moon is V5). 34 interwikis, 544 pageviews daily. Seems vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
2. SnowFire (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support I've recently been thinking of proposing Cardcaptor Sakura for being swapped out (most probably with Berserk (manga)) and the addition of this would counterbalance it in terms of coverage of the genre.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Kaiju

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Another major Japanese genre with significant influence on popcultur. 29 interwikis, over 2k pageviews daily. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
2. SnowFire (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @SnowFire, Totalibe, and Starship.paint: Friendly note, since you commented on kaiju, consider checking the proposal for #Add Godzilla (1954 film) and/or Godzilla (franchise) elsewhere on this page (currently with no comments or votes). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:59, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Stuff to consider

A to-do list of stuff to vote on... I'll try to write up stats and rationale in the foreseeable future, feel free to jump in and propose voting for stuff earlier. Some of those are debatable, sure, but I think there are few "doh!" gems here... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

SF tropes: Mad scientist, First contact (science fiction), Extraterrestrials in fiction (aka aliens in fiction; Extraterrestrial life  4 is V4), Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction  5, Social science fiction, Military science fiction, Telepathy  5, Clairvoyance, Telekinesis, Precognition, Cyberspace  5, Space travel in science fiction (disclaimer: I wrote that one).

And some science concepts that are popular in sf but not vital yet: Mind uploading, Brain–computer interface  5, Terraforming, Generation ship, Artificial gravity  5, Asteroid mining  5, Self-replicating machine, Nanorobotics, Molecular assembler, Molecular machine  5, Space elevator, Megastructure, Dyson sphere, Matrioshka brain, Faster-than-light  5.

More general science: Self-replication  5, Emerging technologies  5, Technological convergence  5, Simulation hypothesis  5.

Reduce museum quota

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I love museums, but hmmm, 125 seems too much - as the discussion just above illustrates, most of those listed are local, not even regional, with less then a century of history. It is also quite weird that 'Cultural venues' lists only specific musems (the section is also listing general concepts for music venues, opera houses and such). I'd suggest pruning museums by half or so to 60, perhaps giving 10-20? to those other venues (Sydney Opera House  4 is listed under architecture, the only other opera house we list is Oslo Opera House  5). Side note: weird pro-Russia bias in that section, Russia gets 9 museums, comparable to traditionally biased UK (11) - compare to the rest of Western Europe (13) and Central Europe (14)... PS. In case museum is now a subquota and irrelevant, then what we should cut down might be the quota for Cultural venues? PPS. In case this is irrelevant too, then let's just vote on removing few dozen stubby regional museums below. -_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support the general idea of reducing the number of museums and adding notable examples of other types of cultural venues. I'm not sure if I would want to go down to 60 though. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 18:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

I haven't looked into other articles, but Concertgebouw, Amsterdam  5 is a concert hall that is listed under Museums. We should probably add a header for "Specific cultural venues" instead of placing them under Museums. In fact, I'll do it now, feel free to revert. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 10:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Moscow Museum of Modern Art

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Getting the ball rolling. 5 interwikis, opened in 1999. Niche, not vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 10:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. I can't even tell if it is notable, let alone vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Menshikov Palace (Saint Petersburg)

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Just a palace (Russia has hundred similar ones, Europe likely a thousand). Branch of Hermitage Museum  4, not important enough to merit seperate coverage (article is barely more than a stub). I am not sure HM should be V4, but that's for another discussion. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 10:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
5. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
6. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:31, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Move subcultures from Sociology to Society/Groups; move some quota from psychology to sociology

TL;DR: Sociology is at quota (60/60), Psychology unfairly IMHO has a much larger quota (220) that it does not even use right now (184/220). Some entries from sociology and society need to be swapped and psychology should share some of its unused quota space with sociology.

Sociology states "This section contains 60 articles out of a quota of 60.". Which may have some balance issue considering that Psychology has a quota of 220 articles. Further, a third of sociology quota is eaten by a list of subcultures. I am sorry, but concepts like Furry fandom or Hippie are vital, but they should not be eating the quota of sociology. Those belong to Society/Groups where I propose moving them. This will fill up Society (currently under quota, "This section contains 186 articles out of a quota of 200."). Second, I suggest moving some unused psychology quota ("This section contains 184 articles out of a quota of 220") to society topics.

As an additional illustration why this is needed - sociology has plenty of VA4 entries with no subarticles. As a sociologist I can easily think of dozens key theories and concepts that should be listed at V5 (several - about 10 - are listed under ambiguous main section for society, up to and including Society  1 and should be moved to sociology; FYI the basic definition of sociology is the study of society). What concepts - I'll propose some next year, but for example, we do not list many major branches of sociology (ex. Sociology of religion - 36 interwikis, Sociology of education - 35, Sociology of law - 31, Economic sociology - 31, Urban sociology - 28, Sociology of the family - 27, Sociology of culture, etc.). Those should be added to V5 (I'll note that psychology lists many of its branches, such as Psychology of religion  4 - which is totally fine, but if we list psych of rel. we should list soc. of rel. too.). For an example of a major sociological theory missing from vital right now I'd point for example to Rational choice theory (30 interwikis). Or methodological concept of {{VA link}Discourse analysis}} (40 interwikis). I am sorry, to have sociological quota filled with furry fandom instead of such stuff is just... sigh.

To address this, I propose some minor quota readjustments and topical swaps. Nothing here will cause stuff to go over quota if executed, and all sections will still have some room to grow. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 1: move subcultures from Sociology to Society/Groups

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Support

1. As nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 14:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Some subculture entries probably need to be cut anyway Totalibe (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Proposal 2: Move all 10 entries under Society to Sociology: (Society (Level 1), Civil society (Level 4), Institution (Level 4), Public (Level 4), Social norm (Level 4), Convention (norm), Social order (Level 4), Social structure, Solidarity (Level 4), Societal collapse, Stateless society)

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Support

1. As nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom Totalibe (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 21:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Not too sure, civil society, institution, stateless society are all concepts that are not necessarily from sociology. The Blue Rider 14:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   @The Blue Rider For what it is worth, I am, professionally, a sociologist, and I think this field is most relevant for such concepts. Most are basic elements of stuff we teach students during the introduction to sociology courses and feature prominently in introductory textbooks for sociology :) As usual, vital suffers from one-dimensional categorization, so no solution is perfect, but that group is simply not even defined where it is, whereas it would fit well with general concepts under sociology. I mean, what plausible reason is there to have social norm or social structure there (at society) instead of together with concepts like social control or socialization, which are at sociology? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

   Well, I learned about all these concepts from my International Relations's licentiate as well. I really don't think these are exclusive to sociology, the "society" category at least would be sort of neutral. The Blue Rider 12:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

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Proposal 3: Reduce Psychology quota from 220 to 200, increase Sociology quota from 60 to 80

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Support

1. As nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 14:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per nom Totalibe (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Discussion

Remove the following films

This is partially related to my proposal above to #Add the following sf films (that have 40-70 interwikis), while maintaining quota. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove The Human Condition (film series)

Just 10 interwikis. Perhaps influential in Japan, although the article does not make even that very clear. Not very influential elsewhere. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Even the Japanese article does not establish vitality. starship.paint (RUN) 13:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
3. With acclaim but not top importance for field czar 06:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support swap for Harakiri (1962 film) (by the same director) - upon checking the filmography I realized he also directed this film, which is to quote the article "often considered one of the best samurai pictures ever made as well as one of the greatest films ever made". This seems much better as am alternative. Iostn (talk) 13:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support swap for Harakiri (1962 film) per Iostn. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Don't actually know if this passes the threshold, but this is a highly-acclaimed film (series) that has continued to recieve critical acclaim (including a release from Criterion Collection), even if it has become somewhat overlooked by the more general public (also note very high ratings on places such as Letterboxd). Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove The Story of the Kelly Gang

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"the world's first full-length narrative feature film", mostly lost. Film history trivia, I fear. Just 13 interwikis. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Weaker case than Roundhay Garden Scene  5, I think. Totalibe (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Feature-length films would've probably existed anyway even if this never existed (From Feature film#History: There was no sudden increase in the running times of films to the present-day definitions of feature-length; the "featured" film on a film program in the early 1910s gradually expanded from two to three to four reels.), plus the definition is rather nebulous (From Feature film#Description: The notion of how long a feature film should be has varied according to time and place.).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Contempt (film)  5

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34 interwikis. Some minor legacy, but nothing major, at least, the article does not make a good case. Inclusion on two "Top 100" lists but those are dime a dozen and not that consistent. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Ranks in top 50 of the "They Shoot Pictures, Don't They?" list, which is compiled from a LOT of best-films-of-all-time lists.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose This is one of the most well-known films from one of the most important filmmakers of the 20th century. Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Canon in film school programs czar 06:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Roundhay Garden Scene  5

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Another film history trivia: "believed to be the oldest surviving film". Is this enough to be vital? Not significant otherwise. 44 interwikis. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
2. It would be one thing if this were to be a long film, but this is three seconds long. How much can even be written about three seconds? starship.paint (RUN) 13:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Very notable film in film history. Despite being three seconds, this was the first piece of media (that we know of) to convey that a story could be told with video. It also on the core list for Wikiproject Film and considered of high importance on Wikiproject France. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I think this should be listed for the same reason Spacewar!  5 is Totalibe (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems vital per Aurangzebra.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:20, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Hoop Dreams

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14 interwikis. Documentary. What makes it vital? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
3. A good film, but I am not sure about lasting international impact. starship.paint (RUN) 13:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support, but I do feel that the film quota needs to be increased, which could lead to this film being readded. Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Notable but no lasting vitality. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose This film has been selected for the National Film Registry. Experts think it is vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

   There are 875 films in the Registry, we can't list them all, we have to prioritise.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger Pinging so you can consider the above. I'd be happy to list them all at V6 in few years :P _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   We are never going to have a V6. Having spent a couple of months here at V5, I understand why. I'll be pushing hard for the VA equivalent of a cost of living adjustment. We need quota as new subjects arise and I will probably try to move towards incremental expansion in 2nd half of 2024. It is going to pass. I want my objection on the record.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

2. It was widely acclaimed, won several awards, made several year-end lists, was listed on the National Film Registry and lead to the Academy Awards nomination process being revised. I think it makes the list for those reasons. Feel free to ping me if you disagree. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

   Pinging @LaukkuTheGreit, Starship.paint, and Totalibe: so that they can reconsider their votes. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

   I mean, I should've probably clarified that my support is fairly weak as this is a fairly significant work, my support only really lies on there being other pending additions and the section being at quota. I do think cinema probably needs a higher quota, for example it has 200 compared to video games at 105 despite being something like three times older as a medium and therefore having a longer history with more potential inclusions having had a chance to make a bigger impact over time. Totalibe (talk) 15:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

   To clarify, my position is that this should stay and we should find other films to remove. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

   Have considered again but still believe in my rationale. starship.paint (RUN) 01:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

3. I think 6 documentaries is the right amount of documentaries for the movie quota and I think Hoop Dreams is among the top 6 most vital documentaries in history. I would also support a swap with Bowling for Columbine which is similarly considered one of the best documentaries of all time but has a more enduring cultural legacy. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:17, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove WALL-E or swap for Ghost in the Shell (1995 film)

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(Note I proposed adding GitS above). Anyway, WALL-E is IMHO the weakest entry in the 10 animation filmns we have. It was the best animation film or 2008, but there's not much else to say. Its lead claims it is one of the great animations, but it is not mentioned in List_of_films_considered_the_best#Animation_(shorts_and_features) which instead lists several others (it is quite arbitrary IMHO). Instaed, GitS can point to having "a cult following... considered to be one of the best anime and science-fiction films of all time. It inspired filmmakers such as the Wachowskis... James Cameron described it as "the first truly adult animation film to reach a level of literary and visual excellence." The film received numerous accolades and was nominated five Annie Award categories (including Best Animated Feature) in 24th Annie Awards, making it the most nominations for a Japanese animated film ever at the awards." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. WALL-E wasn't even the highest-grossing Pixar film of the 2000s (compare Monsters, Inc., The Incredibles or Up (2009 film), the latter of which I think may actually have a good shot at vitality). Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support Remove Wall-E, Oppose Swap GitS. I agree Wall-E is not as notable as the rest of this list but there are so many movies that are more vital than Ghost in the Shell in the animated category. I would recommend a swap with Fantasia (1940 film), which is considered one of the greatest animated films of all time and whose cultural legacy has stretched to include video games, amusement park rides, and a live concert series. It has an enduring international legacy. It also has more than twice as many interwikis as GitS (68 vs 33). I'm also a fan of using the aggregator They Shoot Pictures, don't they? as the definitive source of critical rankings (obviously critical reception isn't the only criterion but it's an important one). Here is their list of the top 10 animated films:

Movie
Spirited Away
My Neighbor Totoro
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Fantasia
Pinocchio
Grave of the Fireflies
Prince Mononoke
Wall-E
Tale of Tales
Bambi

Ghost in the Shell is 43rd. I'd also be willing to swap in Pinocchio (84 interwikis), Grave of the Fireflies (49 interwikis), or even Tale of Tales (1979 film) if we want some diversity outside of Disney + Pixar + anime. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

1. Support removal WALL-E is a rather recentist addition in my estimation. IIRC it was practically used to replace without discussion Who Framed Roger Rabbit  5 which we used to list.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Sherlock Jr.

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The weakest IMHO entry in comedy, just 26 interwikis. Well received classic but less known, or awarded, than many other movies, including some I proposed to add a bit above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Its AFI ranking is not proof of vitality; not top importance in field czar 06:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
3. It’s not like it’s in the upper half of the AFI list. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
4. We'll still have three other silent comedies (two from Chaplin and one other from Keaton). --Makkool (talk) 13:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. WP:LEAD makes a strong case for vitality.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:27, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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