Talk:Principality of Abkhazia

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These are Georgians. They are not Abkhazians. Acbas and Cacbas... Where are they? False info.

Hello, information on the principality of Abkhazia (Abaza) is in detail in the Russian Wikipedia, if you want to read the book by Frederic Dubois de Montperet "Travel around the Caucasus" I will give you his words about Abkhazia Abaza - one of the main Caucasian peoples, calling themselves absne. Georgians call them Abkhazeti (should be Abkhazebi - comp.), Tatars - Abaz, and Russians - Abaza. They inhabit the Big Abaza, between the Caucasian ridge and the Black Sea, Avkhazia or Abkhazia (Avasgia), which continues to the southeast, and Little Abassa, at the foot of the northern slope of the ridge, extending in the east to Jumantau and Svaneti. Abaza are the Abkhaz and its sub-ethnic groups Sadzy, Dzhgerdov, Abzhuians, etc. AnosAnosid (talk) 11:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

if you have old maps of the Abkhaz principality (in English), it is desirable that the Abkhaz principality is visible there, then you can add them, have a good day AnosAnosid (talk) 11:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Do you have specific suggestions what to improve in the article? Alaexis_¿question? 16:56, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

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The peak of the border of the principality at Kelesh-Bay Chachba

Currently this map is in the infobox with the caption "The peak of the border of the principality at Kelesh-Bay Chachba (Shervashidze)." I'm not sure this is supported by sources. The map itself calls the land between Anapa and Ingur "Land Der Grossen Abasa oder Apsne" which is not the same as the principality. @Alsho093, can you provide sources that explicitly confirm that the power of Kelesh-Bey extended beyond modern Sochi? Alaexis_¿question? 20:48, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I left them, but not on the map. I think it will not be misleading if I show the borders of the principality as part of the Russian Empire in 1808, because the borders did not have time to change, what do you think?. Alsho093 (talk) 20:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the principality *ever* extended as far as Anapa, in 1808, before or after. Since you've added this caption, you have to provide a source that confirms it. Alaexis_¿question? 20:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I will add links to this information, fortunately there are not a few of them, just a second Alsho093 (talk) 21:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the sources. Unfortunately they do not confirm that the principality of Abkhazia had the borders that we see on the map (from Ingur to Taman peninsula). If anything, they contradict this. According to Mina Абазское государство делится на 2 части, при 2 беях. Один из них сидит в районе Анапы, а другой в Сухуме, последний правит племенами сих мест до Анапы. while according to Gottlieb Раньше авхазы были подвластны особым князькам, зависевшим от грузинских царей, теперь зависят частью от Порты, а некоторые уезды принадлежат кавказским князьям. Настоящих владетелей у себя почти не имеют, но избирают их из старших фамилий, однако и те имеют у них немного власти.. None of them mention Kelesh-bey by name.

So while it's clear that the Abkhaz/Abaza people lived from Ingur to Anapa, there are no sources which confirm that the authority of the princes of Abkhazia extended so far. I'm going to move the map to the Abkhaz people article. Alaexis_¿question? 10:12, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, I don't quite agree with you, I probably didn't add the sources of Evliya Celebi there. And Mina de' medici also spoke about the internal regional division. Evlia Celebi « Alsho093 (talk) 10:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

"Абаза простирается [от Сухума] до того места, где обитают скифские татары и где [абазы], будучи местами смешаны с мегрелами и турками, очень многим отличаются от природных абазов Анапы. Хотя абазы язычники и почитатели деревьев, однако очень боятся креста и почитают его."(The Medici). Alsho093 (talk) 10:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Chelebi: Alsho093 (talk) 10:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

There is a difference between the Abkhaz people and the Principality of Abkhazia as a political entity. Alaexis_¿question? 10:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, I understand, but Celebi and others mention that it is from Anapa that the "Land of Abaza" begins Alsho093 (talk) 11:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see in in Celebi's account, but Mina does say that the bey of Sukhum controlled lands as far as Anapa (but not Anapa itself, as is clear from the whole passage). There are two problems here which I have already mentioned

1. Mina's account is a primary source which cannot be used to state things in wikivoice (that is, as facts, without attribution)
2. The map does not show two beyliks but rather one undivided land of the Abkhaz, so it doesn't match the source

I feel that we are going in circles. You may want to seek outside feedback, but before that make sure that your case is strong and is based on Wikipedia policies. Alaexis_¿question? 15:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

understood well thanks Alsho093 (talk) 18:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Languages and church

@Alsho093, thanks for adding references. I find it hard to believe that the Arabic language replaced the Georgian right after the civil war in Georgia when the principality was still a Mingrelian vassal. The Turks only occasionally raided Abkhazia at that time and the Islamisation mostly happened in the 17th and 18th centuries (see sources here). Can you please provide the page number in Terim Şerafettin's book and double-check that the source supports the claims you've added? Alaexis_¿question? 20:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

as I understand it, there are no pages there, there is a source in the links Evliya Chelebi, this is the only source proving the writing of the Abhaz, which can be found by scoring a Google search in the book. But I found documents about Abazistan (Abkhazia) they are filled out in Arabic and can be a direct proof of the existence of their own laws that differ from the Ottoman Empire, but for now I'm making links, please wait Alsho093 (talk) 21:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

25, 38 In the book about abhaz Alsho093 (talk) 21:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

the book what do you say Ketab Celebi wrote, but the contemporary only combined Alsho093 (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Celebi's travelled in Abkhazia in the 17th century and so his account cannot be used to say anything about the previous period. Moreover, it's a primary source and it cannot be used to say things in wikivoice. Please note that you can add information from Celebi's account to the article itself.

25, 38 In the book about abhaz If you're referring to Şerafettin's book, can you provide the quote and its translation? Alaexis_¿question? 21:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Well Evliya Celebi died in the 1680s, I have added the Ottoman archive and sources on the map Alsho093 (talk) 21:50, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Please look for information, there is a lot of vandalism and fictional information that does not correspond to the sources Alsho093 (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Let's keep the infobox simple. There were two main religions in the principality: Orthodox Christianity and Islam. The discussion of when the church was subordinate to the Georgian church and when it became subordinate to the Russian church should happen in the article itself. It's a complex topic and there are no clear-cut dates, as your sources make clear.

Also, I'd like to emphasise that secondary sources are usually preferable to primary ones. It's fine to say that Celebi found many Muslims in Abkhazia, but general statements made in wikivoice should be based not on primary sources like Celebi or Mina, but rather on scholarly books and articles which analyse primary sources and make conclusions. Alaexis_¿question? 10:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, Islam and Christianity have never been dominant only among feudal lords, and this is only 1% of the population. I agree with you that it is necessary to simplify, but I will not go any further, because later and more modern after 1878 is another story of the region. Alsho093 (talk) 10:44, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Arabic language

Please provide a quote from Şerafettin's book that supports the claim that Arabic language was the "literary and written, and since 1454 official writing." Alaexis_¿question? 10:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Dubious claims being added into article with unreliable sources

The principality was created in 1463, yet the user keeps inserting that the Georgian language "ceased to exist" in Principality of Abkhazia in 1451 (?) and Georgian Orthodox Church supposedly too. Questionable sources are being used, which look self-published, and no quotes or citations are added. Bailer99 (talk) 22:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

1,5,6,9 article there are sources about the penetration of Islam in Abkhazia since the 7th century, not to mention the more modern period. You don't read sources and write non-existent things, you can be banned Alsho093 (talk) 22:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Stop vandalism and engage in self-deception, you can only provoke moderators to take extreme measures. Alsho093 (talk) 22:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Islam may be first appeared in Abkhazia in 7th century, but it did not spread there during that time, Abkhazia was Christian. According to the source: It was with this strengthening of Ottoman influence in the 16th- 17thcenturies that the gradual dissemination of Sunni Islam really began.This was a period of dramatic decline for Christian culture in Abkhazia,although in the early 17th century the Abkhaz were still paying the‘kharaj’, a duty paid to the Ottoman Empire by non-Muslim subjects. Bailer99 (talk) 22:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The first evidence of Abkhazian Muslims was given in the 1640s bythe Turkish historian Evliya Qelebi, whose mother was an Abkhazian.On his travels he recorded that the Abkhazians had a mosque and that among them were “many Muslims.” This Muslim population, accordingto Qelebi, was hostile to Christians, in spite of not recognising theQur’an or being of any religious denomination. Other sources wouldseem to indicate, however, that although the Christian presence was onthe wane, and the dissemination of Islam increasing, evidence oftraditional Islam was more apparent among the higher levels of society by the end of the 18th century than among the population at large. TheAbkhaz rulers were not in a position to decline Islam, a fact witnessed bythe forced conversion of Shervashidze-Chachba, Abkhazia’s rulingprince, to Islam in 1733, following the destruction by the Turks of Elyr, a pilgrimage-site of particular religious significance to the Abkhaz near Ochamchira. Bailer99 (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Вы сами себе противоречите, у меня нет времени тратить на школьников время. 108 статья абазах написано, я уже кинул жалобу Alsho093 (talk) 23:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

How do I contradict myself? Just because Islam appeared in 7th century, does not means it spread in populance, it only spread by 1640s because of Turkey, but not in majority of population. The prince Sharvashidze converted in 1733. At most 17th century should be written as a date of Turkish islamization of Christian Abkhazia. Writting a date before that contradicts sources. Bailer99 (talk) 23:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

http://apsnyteka.org/1174-tatyrba_a_islam_v_abkhazii.html good luck reading, it was written by the Abkhazians themselves Alsho093 (talk) 23:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

George Hewitt is already very pro-Apsua and anti-Georgian writer, you know. Bailer99 (talk) 23:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

What about «apsua» and pro-Georgian? Have you started insulting minorities and promoting racism again? The conclusion has been made with you, I will inform the moderators Alsho093 (talk) 23:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I did not insult anyone, Apsua is self-designation of the people. Moreover, George Hewitt is their supporter, that's all I wrote, and he is opponent of Georgia. Just check online. George Hewitt is self-styled so-called Honorary Consul of Britain in unrecognized "Republic of Abkhazia". He is their "government" member basically. That's why I wrote that he is pro-Apsua. How is this an insult? Bailer99 (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

You have engaged in personal attacks many times already, and now you also baselessly accuse others of "insults". Writting the self-designation of people can not be an insult. Also, adding sourced information that Islam only spread in 17th century is not an insult too. The Abkhazians were Georgian tribe and Christian, not Muslim, so it needed clarification, the source says that Islam spread in 1640s and prince adopted it in 1733. That's it, it is based on a source in the article. Ok, let's stop this, don't make any more controversial edits. Bailer99 (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I will not even answer fictional fairy tales, the Abkhazians are an Abaza-Circassian people. It's already clear with you, let the moderators figure it out Alsho093 (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

It is not a "fairy tales", it was studied by scientists (Diachkov-Tarasov, Davit Bakradze, Pavle Ingorokva, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, Mariam Lordkipanidze and others), but this is offtopic, focus on the topic of discussion if you have something more to say. Bailer99 (talk) 00:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Guys, let's keep the discussion focused on concrete changes in the threads above. Please refer from personal attacks and note that there are no "moderators" here. Alaexis_¿question? 10:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit war

@Alsho093, @Bailer99, what you've been doing here is an edit war and I'm pretty that both of you have violated the [[WP:3RR|three-revert rule which could lead to blocking. I'm now reverting the article to my latest version. Please propose changes one by one here at the talk and we'll discuss them. Alaexis_¿question? 22:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The version of 20 January 2024 has been restored. This version of infobox preceded the attempts to add unsourced/unsupported material by some users and edit war. If they still make controversial and unsourced changes, it will be an edit war on their part. Bailer99 (talk) 23:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem with the edit war

The problem is that user Alsho093 attempts to insert the claim that Abkhazian language was an official language of principality, without providing sources backing it. They attempted to provide some quotes from some works, but these quotes did not say that Abkhazian was an official language of principality. There is no source and no evidence for this claim, but the constant readdition of this unsourced content causes edit war. The discussions have proven futile as the user Alsho093 failed to demonstrate any source. Let's remember that Abkhazian language became written language only 150 years ago, when the Abkhaz alphabet was created by Russian general. The writings in Abkhaz are very obscure before that and the first one was only recorded in 17th century in Arabic script by Turkish traveler Evliya Çelebi. There is a source provided that states that Georgian was official and literary language, yet the user tries to reinsert his own claim that official and literary language was actually Abkhaz, without proper sourcing. Bailer99 (talk) 23:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

baths like Ivan the terrible's, leave the article as it is, not you and not him do not understand Wikipedia, you only accelerate your ban with him.Make it like this, since you don't know how to do it GohanIlimI (talk) 23:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Just don't reinsert the claim that Abazgi or Abkhazian or any other Northwest caucasian was official language, since this is unsupported by sources. Bailer99 (talk) 00:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)