Talk:Sport of athletics

Request to update wiki page of an athlete

I have come across a wiki page of an athlete, Siddhanth Thingalaya who happen to be a good friend of mine. But his wiki page is missing lots of information about his latest achievements. Can anyone help me update his wiki page?

Kiran247 (talk) 11:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Incoming link changes

I have made a proposal to fix incoming links to this article here. Please add your thoughts. SFB 14:59, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

health

what is name of 32 athletes 27.34.29.124 (talk) 15:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: English 102

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2023 and 5 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jahyrenlee09 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jahyrenlee09 (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

P.E

atlethics 119.94.184.175 (talk) 13:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The two proposals in this title each failed to achieve consensus, for separate reasons:

• There was no consensus about which title would be preferable for the article currently titled Sport of athletics. The current title was criticized as being insufficiently WP:NATURAL. A support base emerged for Athletics (sport) as WP:CONSISTENT with the disambiguators used by other sports, but that title also received opposition on the grounds that it would be ambiguous with the general concept of athleticism. The originally proposed title of Athletics (organised sport) does not seem to have been viewed as an improvement; it was questioned whether the word "organised" provided a meaningful increase in WP:PRECISION, and many participants (even supporters of moving the article) explicitly opposed the "(organised sport)" DAB. In sum, no title reached sufficient strength of argument to attain consensus.
• The second proposal, about Athletics (physical culture), resulted in no consensus due to being virtually undiscussed. The only argument offered either for or against moving that article was "no need to move". (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

---

• Sport of athletics → Athletics (organised sport)
• Athletics (physical culture) → Athletics (physical activities)

– I like this solution, as "Sport of athletics" is not natural disambiguation, as it is not "unambiguous, commonly used, and clear" (according to WP:NATDAB). 90.255.15.152 (talk) 12:02, 18 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Sport of athletics is a truly terrible title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:41, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed move, support Athletics (sport) which compares to diving (sport) (not to be confused with sport diving (sport), and other diving that is not done as part of an "organized sport") or tumbling (sport) not to be confused with tumbling during artistic gymnastics. Also, the article is not currently consistent in terms of -ise vs. -ize spellings. Alternately, I would support a merge into Track and field as proposed above. Buidhe public (talk) 05:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Note that "track and field" is not universally used. We would not generally use it in the UK, for instance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
    • Yes, Track and field is an American term for a subset of Athletics events as understood in most of the world. If any merge was to occur, it should be other way round. HiLo48 (talk) 09:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
      • Track and field is a subset of athletics, and an Americanism too. So moving would be inappropriate, any merging can be discussed separately to this RM. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, support Athletics (sport) or keeping existing title. What disambiguating purpose does the word "organized" serve in the title? --Habst (talk) 15:31, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
  • The fact that Athletics (physical culture) or Athletics (physical activities) could also cover Athletics (sport), since it includes playing sport. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
    • That's not a grammatically correct sentence. I don't know what point you're making. HiLo48 (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
      • It's an entirely grammatically correct sentence and its meaning should be blatantly obvious. But, if you're still confused, Athletics (physical culture) includes sport, so Athletics (sport) is no disambiguator at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
        • Sorry. It's simply NOT grammatically correct. And that matters here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
          • I'm not going to bother arguing with you, but I fail to see in any case how this is relevant to the discussion other than an exercise in pointless pedantry. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and Oppose the alternative "Athletics (sport)", which is just plain ambiguous, and no different from using "Athletics", since "sport" also means physical activity, and that "athletics" is a synonym for sport (such as athletics departments that are just sports departments) -- sport of athletics is clear and concise, and does not suffer the ambiguities introduced by all the new name suggestions -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 05:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  How about Athletics (World Athletics)? 90.255.6.219 (talk) 19:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

How is that a useful disambiguator? This is not about the area of athletics governed by World Athletics, it is about the sport, not just that governed by World Athletics. WA doesn't govern all aspects of the sport, nor is every region of the world covered by WA, nor every level of the sport. The World Athletics article is for the organization and what it governs, this article isn't that topic. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 03:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

World Athletics don't own all athletics, so this would be a terrible disambiguator. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Athletics has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Sports has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Running has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 19:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Move Sport of athletics to Athletics (sport) and no need to move Athletics (physical culture). Athletics (sport) is consistent with other sports names for ambiguous sports, many examples of which have been listed previously here. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
  • except that "athletics (sport)" or "athletics (sports)" is equivalent to saying "sports (sports)" or "sport (sport)" because "athletics" means "sport", as can be seen in university athletics departments, that cover football, basketball, baseball, etc. Thus "Athletics (sport)" is a highly ambiguous way of saying things. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 07:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
    • No it isn't, it means athletics is a type of sport, athletics is not generally a synonym for sport (even if some universities use it wrongly as such). Joseph2302 (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
      • Not just universities. People in general use athletics for aerobic sports (as opposed to say e-sports). The current title is better, because people at large use the term "athletics" in a widely ranging and ambiguous manner. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 12:54, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Glad this ended as no consensus because this issue is not as simple as it first appears. It's worth reviewing previous move discussions which resulted in the establishment of the current title "sport of athletics". It is the only title which is unambiguous in a natural and technical sense and allows for the development of the subject without constant wars over English variations and scope. There is a reason why this awkward title has been stable and not had edit wars. It's the same reason why the international governing body of the sport uses the phrase "sport of athletics" in its own publications[1].

1. Athletics cannot be used because this is synonymous with athletic activities and college sports in general for a large portion of users
2. "Athletics (sport)" cannot be used because it fails to disambiguate the sport of athletics from the above athletic activities
3. "Athletics (organised sport)" cannot be used for same reason as above
4. "Athletics (track and field)" cannot be used because this constantly resulted in editing arguments about whether sport of athletics = track and field (it does not) and results in American editors changing the article to effectively cover the same subject as track and field.
5. "Track and field athletics" cannot be used for the same reason as above and because this actually means track and field, not the wider sport of athletics

• Although "sport of athletics" is an awkward phrase, it is a phrase used within the literature and organisations for the sport and one which allows Wikipedians to easily disambiguate the topic from both athletic activities and its subset of track and field. The previous ones also generated an enormous amount of confused wikilinks on such a scale that those issues remain unresolved today. SFB 20:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Description of 'track & field'

I read through this page and found it's mixed terminology confusing. I do not wish to enter--or reopen--the naming discussion, but I find the inconsistent use of terminology on this page confusing. It's peculiar that there is a seperate page for 'track and field'--I'm guessing for political reasons?-- but why does this page switch from talking about the sport as athletics to calling the facilities used "track and field stadiums" its bizarre. For the sake of continuity and clarity, shouldn't it just be athletic stadiums? after all, that's how they are referred to in the countries in which the sport is known as athletics. I propose the sections are altered to fit with the the rest of the article. SteadyJames (talk) 13:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@SteadyJames, thanks for this. Putting aside the regional naming differences entirely, "track and field" is not the same as "sport of athletics" because the former usually doesn't include road running, race walking (on the roads), or cross country running, while athletics specifically includes all of those disciplines.

So, "track and field" is a big part of but not entirely representative of athletics, and the concept does deserve mention on the article. Now, presuming this article is written in European English, maybe we could call track and field "in-stadia athletics" instead in this article? But that term is rarely used and awkward sounding. And calling the stadiums "athletics stadiums" can be confusing as well because not all athletics events are contested in stadiums (see street meet).

I don't think there are any satisfying answers here. In the long run, I hope that both "athletics" and "track and field" terms will catch on globally so we don't have to worry about restricting ourselves to one or the other. --Habst (talk) 14:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, ‘track and field’ is not widely used to describe any aspect of the sports of athletics in countries which refer to the sport as such—-least of all the stadia in which it’s events take place. There may well be minute differences between the predominantly geography specific definitions but that’s not called in to question here. Rather, it is the terms by which a stadium used for athletics is called: an athletics stadium is the correct nomenclature in locations that call the sport “Athletics”. SteadyJames (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Please see how the stadium is referred to in this article: Crystal Palace National Sports Centre SteadyJames (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@SteadyJames, OK, I agree with you about "track and field stadiums", and have  Done that change in Special:Diff/1218037576 as well as adding {{use European English}} (which is currently just a redirect to {{use British English}}). But on this, ‘track and field’ is not widely used to describe any aspect of the sports of athletics in countries which refer to the sport as such — I think websites like this https://www.trackandfield.co.uk/ would indicate otherwise, no? Thanks for the suggestions. --Habst (talk) 10:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's peculia. There are a few references to to 'track and field' outside the US. I even found one on the England Athletics website (adjunct or junior to UK Athletics) although the page in question is a few years old and in references to a team competing in a solitary competition, which was still listed as 'Athletics' on the same page. In regards to the reference you shared, the 'track and field' part is a brand name: "Track & Field Tours", not an event. Again, the resource refers to the services provided by the company as "athletics events and training camps'. Therefore, I maintain that the name 'track and field' is not used widely outside the US, and thereafter seldom used to describe the sport itself and relating activities. However, I'm happy to change my mind if evidence is brought forward.

With this in mind I propose that, for the sake of continuity and clarity, all other instances and references to 'track and field' on this page are simplified to 'athletics', as again, this is the common name for the sport in the language used on this page. SteadyJames (talk) 17:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@SteadyJames, thanks, I think you make a good argument. I'm prepared to replace all mentions of "track and field" from the article (except for the one at the end of the lede that explains the regional term), but then what would you propose we replace the term with? In the article, "track and field" is mostly described as a component of athletics, so it wouldn't make sense to replace it with "athletics" and then the article would be saying "athletics is a part of athletics".

My ideas all don't sound too great:

1. "in-stadia athletics"

2. "running and field" (sounds too much like track and field)

3. "track running and field"

4. "60 metres through 10,000 metres, jumping, and throwing events" (way too long)

5. "stadium athletics"

I think number 5 might be the best sounding one, but I'm not sure if I can find enough cites that it would be well understood. --Habst (talk) 17:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's be too hastey... I've done some more digging and have found contemporary use of 'track and field' by several organising bodies outside the US, including the organising bodies in Scotland, England (but curiously not UK Athletics), and Australia. https://www.scottishathletics.org.uk/; https://www.englandathletics.org/competitions-and-events/national-championships/; https://www.athletics.com.au/home/.

What's interesting to me is that there seems to be a total absence of the term in the press and among the wider populations in those countries. Indeed, the common catch all name remains athletics in all location in the press and for locations, local teams etc. Therefore, there is a decision to be made here about the specificity of nomenclature, especially as there is absolutely no reference to the 'track and field' on the World Athletics website; the org doesn't appear to make a distinction between in-stadia, road, etc events... I don't think wikipedia recognises 'official names', but I'm unsure how various names for the same thing is handled. SteadyJames (talk) 18:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@SteadyJames, interestingly when naming their World Athlete of the Year award winners for 2023, World Athletics uses the terms "track" and "field", but not together (so close!): https://worldathletics.org/awards/news/world-athletes-year-rising-stars-2023. They also use the term "out of stadia" as a catch-all to describe all non-track-and-field athletics events. So we have a term that means the inverse of what we want, but not the acual thing.

(They also (rarely) use the "track and field" term in some of their news, e.g. in https://worldathletics.org/news/feature/22-standout-moments-2022-track-field-season, but this seems like an exception.)

I think the reason that press and wider population in Europe doesn't use "track and field" is because they usually don't require the level of precision that an encyclopedia needs to accurately categorize and describe its various aspects; in casual conversation, you can tell what's being meant by context but we can't really rely on that on Wikipedia. --Habst (talk) 18:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I broadly agree with your last post. Contrary to my last proposal, I’m now against further changes in light of evidence. SteadyJames (talk) 18:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)