Talk:Israel

History section

Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine and the Holy Land. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite, and later, Israelite and Jewish states. The region was ruled by the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic ,Roman, Arab rule, Islamic Caliphates, Crusader, and Ottoman empires. The late 19th century saw the rise of Zionism in Europe, a movement seeking a Jewish homeland, which garnered British support. After World War I, the Ottomans were defeated and the Mandate for Palestine was set up in 1920. Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestineincreased considerably, leading to intercommunal conflict between Jews and Arabs.[24] The 1947 UN Partition Plan triggered a civil war between the two groups, which saw the expulsion and flight of most of Palestine's predominantly Arab population.

what do you think? Qplb191 (talk) 15:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@ FortunateSons what do you think about the proposed history section? Qplb191 (talk) 02:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Could you do a mark up of what you are changing, preferably by bolding anything new? I’m not at my laptop for the next few days. FortunateSons (talk) 03:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes sure.

“ The region was ruled by the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic ,Roman, Arab rule, Islamic Caliphates, Crusader, and Ottoman empires.”

This are the most important empires there is no need to mention all of the empires that ruled the region that didn’t have a big impact.

Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine and the Holy Land or the land of Israel in the Jewish tradition. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite, and later, Israelite and Jewish states. Better wording and more orderly

“ The late 19th century saw the rise of Zionism in Europe, a movement seeking a Jewish homeland, which garnered British support. After World War I, the Ottomans were defeated and the Mandate for Palestine was set up in 1920. Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestineincreased considerably, leading to intercommunal conflict between Jews and Arabs.[24] The 1947 UN Partition Plan triggered a civil war between the two groups, which saw the expulsion and flight of most of Palestine's predominantly Arab population. .”

same as now Qplb191 (talk) 03:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Both of those look good to me on content; I would maintain the original sentence order (as in the article, not the last comment) and change the first sentence (in your last comment) to clarify that it’s a non-exhaustive list. Let’s wait for some others, but no major objections on my end. FortunateSons (talk) 11:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I think you will want feedback from @Makeandtoss for this as well because he added the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the only change here in the proposed text above is the empires. There is no such things as Arab rule and Islamic Caliphates. I don't see a problem with naming them. Also check the talk page section on how downplayed is the 7AD+ history of the territory of the State of Israel which is the History of Palestine. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid and Hellenistic empires, Hasmonean kingdom, Herodian rulers, Romanand Byzantine empires, Arab Caliphates(Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid and Fatimid), Crusaders, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottomanempires

I have a problem with the empires mentioned, it is already written that the place was home to Jewish kingdoms, and this is confusing. The Hasmonean kingdom and the Herodian kingdom were actually the same kingdoms (Herod continued the Hasmoneans and also married with them) and they were not empires either, these were only local rulers under Rome, many of the empires shown didn’t have a great impact on the region ,and it doesn't add up to mention them.

Qplb191 (talk) 20:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the Byzantine Empire, it is actually Rome that is already mentioned and in my opinion there is no need to mention it again regarding the Arab Caliphate rule, you can simply write it without mentioning it in depth and those who want to be interested can simply go to the link. (In my opinion now it’s very confusing) Qplb191 (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

We could use the Encyclopedia Britannica as a basis here:

“ ...The region that now falls within its borders has a lengthy and rich history that dates from prebiblical times. The area was a part of the Roman Empire and, later, the Byzantine Empire before falling under the control of the fledgling Islamic caliphate in the 7th century CE. Although the object of dispute during the Crusades, the region, then generally known as Palestine, remained under the sway of successive Islamic dynasties until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, when it was placed under British mandate from the League of Nations. ” — Encyclopedia Brittanica

Following the example of this encyclopedia, we would exclude the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid and Hellenistic empires because Jewish political entities continued to exist in Palestine during these empires. "In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite, and later, Israelite and Jewish states [which were destroyed by the empires A and Z]". After that, we would move on to the Roman empire, which destroyed Jewish sovereignty in the region and continue talking about the Arab and Turkish empires in a more elaborated way. Mawer10 (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

i think it’s a good idea. Qplb191 (talk) 22:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

“Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine and the Holy Land. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite and later, Israelite and Judahite states which were destroyed by the Roman Empire .Later the region was ruled by Arab Caliphates, Crusaders, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottoman empires. The late 19th century saw the rise of Zionism in Europe, a movement seeking a Jewish homeland, which garnered British support during World War I. During the war, the Ottomans were defeated and the British Mandate for Palestine was set up in 1920.”

Do you think it’s a good virsion? Qplb191 (talk) 22:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, looks good FortunateSons (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Canaanite city states were destroyed by Israelite states; so why are we mentioning on thing but not another? We shouldn't mention any of these ancient empire transitions, which are by definition violent.

I don't know why Arab Caliphates, 700 period of history at least, is linked to "Arab conquest of Levant" while the article is about Muslim conquest; while no other empire has its conquest linked, such as Pompei's campaign for example. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:27, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that @Mawer10 proposal is better , this is what appears also in Britannica. I don’t see a reason to mention every possible empire in the lead, Mawer10's version is more understandable, for the article context it is more relevant that these states were destroyed by the Romans. Qplb191 (talk) 16:54, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

That's not true. These states were not "destroyed" by the Romans. What you are referring to is the Bar Kochba revolt which was an uprising by an ethnic group in the Roman empire and not by an existing state. We don't need to mention every possible empire, but we should at least mention the main ones. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

If you want, you can omit it, in my opinion there is no need to mention all the empires, certainly not specifically . beyond that, as I have already mentioned, the Hasmoneans were not an empire and Herod himself married them and continued them. How is it necessary to delve into this as you wrote, in most of the countries in Wikipedia, all the empires that ruled the region are not specified, only the central empires that had a presence and had influence. Qplb191 (talk) 21:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

And what makes you think that ancient Jewish kingdoms more than 2,000 years ago which lasted no more than a century had more presence and influence than Arab caliphates just a millennia ago that ruled Palestine for more than half a millennia? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I meant that I don't think it is necessary to mention the Jewish kingdoms that ruled. Qplb191 (talk) 10:00, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

In terms of the influence on the region and history, the Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Arab and Ottoman empires had the greatest influence, so I recommend mentioning only them. Qplb191 (talk) 10:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

This version appears to forget about the Assyrians and Babylonians. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

It's a bit chronologically weird isn't it? In the Iron Age there were Canaanites, Israelites and Philistines, then it was Assyrians and Babylonians, the Persians, the Macedonians/Seleucids, the Hasmoneans, the Romans, etc. History didn't skip from the Israelites to the Hasmoneans to the Romans. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mawer10: Following Britannica, wouldn't we exclude a lot more? Britannica's version is actually blissfully slimmed down and without any undue emphasis on anything. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: Britannica presents the history of the region after the Romans very well, it is certainly more informative than just a list of every empire that controlled the region. As for pre-Roman history, Britannica leaves out a lot. But if we left the mention of the Canaanite, Israelite and Jewish kingdoms in the introduction I don't think we would be omitting much, we would just be focusing on the native political entities of the Palestine region instead of the foreign empires that controlled it. Mawer10 (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mawer10 is it really necessary to include all these empires? , what do you about including only the Babylonian, Hellenistic , Roman , Arab , crusaders, and ottoman empires ? Qplb191 (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Also I don’t think that we need to include the Jewish states. Qplb191 (talk) 10:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The Jewish states are of relevance due to their connection to the current ones, arguably the same can be said about some of the Arab/muslim one. The rest is often of limited significance if you ask me. FortunateSons (talk) 10:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but we already mention the Jewish states that existed, there is no need to mention it twice, the empires I mentioned had the greatest influence, so in my opinion there is no need to mention all the empires. Qplb191 (talk) 11:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That seems reasonable, I think we should do it and then fix the details FortunateSons (talk) 13:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

“ After the collapse of the Canaanite civilization, the kingdoms of Israel and Judah emerged in the region. The area came under the successive rule of various empires until achieving a brief independence under the Hasmonean dynasty, but soon was incorporated into the Roman Empire as the province of Judaea, later known as Palestine. In the 7th century CE, the Byzantines lost control of the region to the Islamic caliphate. Although the object of dispute during the Crusades, Palestine remained under the sway of successive Islamic or Arab dynasties until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, when it was placed under British mandate from the League of Nations. ”

I created this version based on the Britannica Encyclopedia, and added the pre-Roman history of the region that Britannica omits. It can be shortened, but as you can see a list of empires is not necessary. Mawer10 (talk) 14:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Britannica is not a bible. This lede abruptly jumps from 1st century to 7th century, and from 7th century to 21st century. This is not a summarization of the history of the region that the state of Israel was established on in 1948, aka not a summary of the History of Palestine. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

If that's not a summary of the region's history, I don't know what is. It's pretty similar to the first three paragraphs in History of Palestine#Overview. And since Wikipedia editors can't agree on anything in the various discussions about the lead, I think it's a good idea to use Britannica as a source of inspiration. Mawer10 (talk) 15:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Politically, between the 1st century and the 7th century, the region remained under Roman control and its continuation under the Byzantines. With the exception of the Jewish revolts, nothing very relevant occurred during this period that deserves mention in the lead. And the claim that the text jumps from the 7th century to the 20th century is not entirely correct, the text makes mention of the crusades (12th century) and Ottoman rule (starting in the 16th century). Mawer10 (talk) 15:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

A random Jewish revolt 2,000 years ago is not more relevant than several empires that had controlled Palestine throughout the millennia. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no mention of this revolt in the text I created, what is your suggestion? A list of empires? Mawer10 (talk) 17:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Mawer10 . Qplb191 (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It's also dumb jumping from the iron age, past the lengthy Persian and Greek periods to the brief Hasmonean period. The only fix to the excessive history is to remove the majority without leaving any undue weight on a few historical fetishes. There is also the still glaring "history of the region" versus "history of Israel" problem. E.g. The iron age kingdoms are, for example, more directly related to the history of the West Bank than the history of modern Israel. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

"The area came under control of the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid and Hellenistic empires until achieving a brief independence under the Hasmonean dynasty, but soon was incorporated into the Roman Empire..." Even if the other empires are added to the text, it makes sense to differentiate the Hasmonean rule from the others because the Hasmonean kingdom was a Palestinian kingdom, native to the region, while the other are foreign powers. The current lead is more problematic by summarizing the history to a list, the crusaders seem to be an empire in the list. And I disagree with your idea that Israel and Judah are more directly related to the history of the West Bank than to that of modern Israel; the two are located in the same geographic and historical space so it is dumb to see them as separate. Mawer10 (talk) 21:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

History operates within defined borders. When you recount the history of Portugal, you don't recount the history of the entire Iberian Peninsula. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think history operates within defined borders, especially if such borders are not natural borders like rivers, deserts and mountains. Also the Palestine region is very small compared to the Iberian peninsula. But tell me, how should the introduction be following the modern borders? Mawer10 (talk) 13:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the last history talk thread, what the history section should actually be doing is referencing high quality secondary, academic reference works, such as Israel: A History by Anita Shapira (2015) – "Written by one of Israel's most notable scholars, this volume provides a history of Israel from the origins of the Zionist movement in the late 19th century to the present day." Iskandar323 (talk) 17:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

you make a very good point, could you please present an example of such a version ? Qplb191 (talk) 17:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Since Zionism did not appear out of the blue, I imagine that such an example has a context. Mawer10 (talk) 22:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't have access to Shapira's work, but Israel: A Concise History of a Nation Reborn (2016) by Daniel Gordus (Harper Collins) gives a preview of the first few chapters. It likewise starts with a recounting of the awakening of Zionism in the late 19th century. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323 do you agree that we should erase the Herodian and Hasmonean because it is already mentioned that there were Jewish kingdoms and they weren’t empires as well. Qplb191 (talk) 22:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Levant or Southern Levant

Should this article (and Jordan too) be referred to as Levant or Southern Levant? Technically all of Israeli land (inclusive of undisputed and disputed) are in Southern Levant, so will it be more specific to refer to the title as Levant region or Southern Levant region? Josethewikier (talk) 13:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Wording about historical names in the lead

@Makeandtoss: your edit makes the sentence read as if the word "Israel" has less historical relevance than the other names, while it has been used to refer to the region not less frequently than "Canaan", and for a longer time than "Holy Land" or "Palestine". Triggerhippie4 (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It does have less historical relevance than other names, that's why the main article on the region is Palestine (region) and Canaan while Land of Israel is about biblical heritage. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The name "Israel" is what the indigenous people called their land for centuries, and it has more historical relevance than "Holy Land." Triggerhippie4 (talk) 16:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Israel, as well as Judea, are not less historical than other names. They were the primary names at least since the early Iron Ages and until the mid 2nd century. They are the most relevant names to the article, while there is still room to mention other names with the right historical context. But the problem is wider, most of the paragraph seems too insignificant to be mentioned in the lead. Israel is a Jewish nation state and its foundations based upon Jewish identity, regional history, culture, language and religion, and yet it is almost completely absent from the paragraph in favor of a generic regional description that teach almost nothing about the state's most relevant historical background. Infantom (talk) 11:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Please verify that the Land of Israel was a common name for the geographic reason throughout recorded history per WP:BURDEN. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Apartheid in Lead

I think it's time for us to have this discussion.

I propose that the apartheid allegation be explicitly mentioned in the lead. This is an incredibly well-sourced allegation, and I think the current lead which vaguely talks about "crimes of humanity" and "war crimes" is avoiding the core of the issue — precisely which crime is Israel being accused of? Apartheid is the principal one.

Specifically, I propose that the current version "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism along with accusations that it has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials." be replaced with "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism. It has been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the crime of apartheid, against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials." JDiala (talk) 00:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Option A: Mention apartheid.

Option B: No change.

Option C: Other.

Survey

• Bad RfC we already had a recent discussion regarding the language in the lead. No significant change has happened since. FortunateSons (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I suggest we wait for an action by the ICC or the ICJ before discussing this issue again, as that will probably influence the situation drastically. TucanHolmes (talk) 18:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, a binding decision by one of those could be such a significant change. FortunateSons (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

A court decision by the ICJ supporting apartheid charachterization would turn the claims in to factual reality; i.e. Israel is maintaining an apartheid system, rather than Israel is accused of maintaining an apartheid system; i.e. Israel and apartheid would be turned into Israeli apartheid. In both cases this has nothing to do whether this should be mentioned in lede, because the lede is a summary of the body. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You voted in the wrong place, and you misunderstood my comment: As there is no significant change (and a decision would be such a change), there is no reason to re-open a discussion so soon. FortunateSons (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support of option A: this mention is long overdue and this is pretty much the elephant in the article. This is supported by the world's leading human rights organizations, including HRW and Amnesty International which are RS per WP. The lede is a summary of the body and given that we have a subsection on apartheid charges, then the least we could do is provide a simple mention of this. WP:LEDE specifically says any prominent controversies should be mentioned; the charges of apartheid is obviously and most certainly a prominent controversy, which has its own WP article Israel and apartheid, and is being mentioned in international forums including the ICJ genocide case. We are quite literally beautifying the horrors of this long-standing occupation and increasing settlement construction by not mentioning the findings (yes findings, not accusations) of major human rights groups. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:24, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option A Per Makeandtoss. JDiala (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate you reformatting the RfC; would you be so kind as to actually do it by fully next time, by not excluding my vote? could you please include my vote next time?FortunateSons (talk) 09:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Your snarky attitude towards honest mistakes is not congruent with policy. I refer you to WP:GF, WP:CIVIL. JDiala (talk) 11:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  That wasn’t meant to be (overly) snarky, I just wanted my second correction regarding formatting to be less aggressive, I’ll fix the tone. :) FortunateSons (talk) 12:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  there should also be a reference to apartheid in its government type. Gorgonopsi (talk) 18:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  That being said, just a technicality: it’s not an AGF violation (as no bad faith was assumed) and likely not yet a civility violation (those require a de minimis bar to be crossed that wouldn’t have been reached even if I had meant it in a mean way). However, I definitely could have gone for a nicer phrasing, and apologise for that. FortunateSons (talk) 12:33, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

• Bad RfC per FortunateSons. Marokwitz (talk) 20:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support for A per Makeandtoss. I would have assumed the allegations of apartheid were already mentioned in the lead, it should absolutely be added. Professor Penguino (talk) 09:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

• Option A: sufficient weight for inclusion. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 03:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• Option A: Definitely sufficient weight and the weight has only become more pronounced over the past seven months as the state has sunk deeper into racial prejudice and persecution. Even before that, in August, a former head of Israel's northern command was calling it as apartheid. There's more in the HRW December update on the topic. And now we have the thousands of additional administrative detentions underscoring the complete legal inequality, among the litany of other abuses in the West Bank, including unlawful killings without charge. There was even a whole conference on the topic of the apartheid this past week. Or try one of the many journal pieces written already in 2024 alone on the topic. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support for option A: per Makeandtoss and Iskandar323. There is absolutely strong enough sources to support it. A Socialist Trans Girl 08:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Modify slightly: Though, I think that the specific organizations should be listed with the phrasing ...including the crime of apartheid, against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations, including X, Y, and Z, as well as United Nations officials. A Socialist Trans Girl 08:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Okay actually maybe different phrasing: I think it's better to use the more definitive phrasing suggested in discussion of what Israel is doing amounting to apartheid, as supported by the ICJ and Amnesty. A Socialist Trans Girl 08:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment: as a compromise, I would support the wording proposed by DMH223344 on 02:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC):

“most human rights organizations consider Israel to enforce an apartheid system in the occupied territories."

This wording had received consensus from ~5 editors. I would oppose the wording suggested in this RfC. Wafflefrites (talk) 16:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

‘’’Support this’’’ as well as Makeandtoss’ reasoning. In order to employ more explicit wording there needs to either be a monopoly of sources or a high court judgement imo and we don’t have that at the moment Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment There is an upcoming ICJ ruling on Israeli practices in the OPT. As per The Implications of An ICJ Finding that Israel is Committing the Crime Against Humanity of Apartheid during the recent public hearings, "24 States and three international organizations made the further claim that Israel’s policies and practices amount to a system of institutionalized racial discrimination and domination breaching the prohibition of apartheid under international law and/or amount to prohibited acts of racial discrimination.". Personally, I would like to wait for the ICJ deliberations on this matter to conclude before addressing what should be in the lead (although it being in the body is straightforward). Selfstudier (talk) 15:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, from my perspective, apartheid is already a fact since Amnesty and HRW are reliable sources, without regard to what western governments are claiming. Given this contradiction we have chosen to treat these conclusions as allegations. But in either case, whether conclusions or allegations, apartheid as a fact or as a claim should be in the lede as a summary of the body. Currently, the least we could do is have it described as a claim. After the ICJ deliberations, if affirmative, I think we would all be inclined to treat it as fact. So I would view it more of how to describe apartheid in the lede for now and later as two separate discussions. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

When saying lede are you talking about the first paragraph or the third? The allegation of apartheid should be in the third if there are many reliable sources for it, it fits with what's already there in the same vein. If the ICJ concluded it was apartheid then it could be included as a fact imo Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:LEDE is the summary of the body that is present before the article's contents; i.e. the four paragraphs. The first lede paragraph is under MOS:OPEN. Here I am referring to the third lede paragraph indeed. and I agree with your reasoning. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I actually like the ICJ wording. The ICJ was careful in how they worded it, and the wording is more accurate. Apartheid is linked to race, and "Palestinian" is not a race, so the apartheid accusation is not really accurate. The ICJ wording doesn't say "there is apartheid" but that the system amounts to apartheid. Human Rights Watch also used "amounts to" up in DMH223344's comment on 00:21, 22 March 2024.

The ICJ wording:

"Israel’s policies and practices amount to a system of institutionalized racial discrimination and domination breaching the prohibition of apartheid under international law and/or amount to prohibited acts of racial discrimination."

I would also prefer to wait for the ICJ deliberations. The current info in the Wikipedia Israel article about apartheid is not very good because it is basically "here is are bunch of organizations accusing Israel of apartheid.. a quote from a 2021 survey... these accusations were criticized by governments...here is a opinion by a Canadian law professor." Written like this, the content is not very lead-worthy, but content supported by more well-rounded/balanced ICJ deliberations and findings would make the apartheid accusations more lead-worthy. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Definition of race: a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:17, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know. I use duck.com as a default browser on this device and when I typed in Is Palestinian a race it said “ Palestinian is not considered a distinct race. Palestinians are an ethnonational group residing in the Southern Levant, sharing broad religious, linguistic, and cultural practices with other Arabs, with variations unique to Palestine. They are part of the broader Arab world and encompass Muslims and a minority of Christians.”

Also ethnicity and race are not the same. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnicity but not race. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes but no one in this discussion has talked about whether Palestinians are a race except yourself. It is imo not germane to the discussion. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid is a system of racial segregation. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

But according to the second definition in the American Heritage dictionary race is , “ A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution.” So it could work if we go by that dictionary picking the second definition. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid (South Africa version) and the Crime of Apartheid are not the same thing. In addition, the definition of racial group nowadays is more fluid. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I may have gotten confused from looking at the US census race categories. Middle Easterners are supposed to fill in White as their race [1]. The census definitions for race and ethnicity are different and more strict. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid has never been that cut and dry, by that argument, Rhodesia wasn't an apartheid regime because it was largely wealth based voting, the apartheid comes from its treatment of the west bank, which it treats like a Bantustan, infact a nickname for the west bank is "bantustan" it is Segregation... Gorgonopsi (talk) 18:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Not just a bunch, a lot of weighty opinions on the matter and over a long period of time, this is not going to go away. Btw, that's not the ICJ wording, that is the wording used by the JustSecurity source, you would need to look at the individual country submissions to see what wording they actually used.

Amnesty view is the most authoritative finding so far "The comprehensive report, Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime against Humanity, sets out how massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law. This system is maintained by violations which Amnesty International found to constitute apartheid as a crime against humanity, as defined in the Rome Statute and Apartheid Convention."

I don't think the "amounts to" is significant, is there a source for that? Selfstudier (talk) 09:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

See, Amnesty is also using “amounts to “

“ and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law.”

JustSecurity used “amounts to “ twice, Amnesty used it, and Human Rights Watch used it. I was trying to figure out why they used “amounts to” instead of is. One definition of “amounts to” is adding up. So maybe that is why they are using it instead of the race thing. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:19, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

International law is named after the most famous example, separation of European/non-European peoples. So I suppose sources on Israel use ‘amounts to’ instead of ‘is’ for language reasons. I think they are saying it fits international law because the actions taken in South Africa and Israel are materially the same, even if it isn’t the identical groups undergoing separation. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Israel Hebrew Name

in the Hebrew name of Israel the vowels are very hard to read. Rishypeasy (talk) 21:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Rishypeasy not everyone can read niqqud. Ahri.boy (talk) 21:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

A few missing historical names

Bellow all the formal stuff we put on every country it mentions the names israel had been called historically, but it's missing some like Judea. 2A06:C701:9DA2:3100:1085:ACF8:8D6B:247B (talk) 22:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not obvious what you mean by "missing". In the Classical antiquity section, for example, Judea is mentioned 4 times. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

English

Just like Arabic, English is also a recognized language in Israel. Please add English alongside Arabic in the "recognized languages" section in the infobox. Here are the sources, as added to the article List of countries and territories where English is an official language.

MylowattsIAm (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Please add English alongside Arabic in the "recognized languages" section in the infobox. The sources I already gave. MylowattsIAm (talk) 08:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: English is not a de jure official language in Israel as stated in your cites. The article text appears to cover this correctly. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Then why not add it as a de facto recognized language with these citations and footnotes explaining it? It's stared that it's use comes even before Arabic so it makes no sense to leave it out of the infobox. MylowattsIAm (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

There are a very large number of languages spoken in Israel as can be seen in the article on this at: Languages of Israel linked to in the languages section of this article. We cannot put them in an infobox. Please stop reopening this request. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

But English has a completely different status. One of the sources literally states "after Hebrew but before Arabic". It's not just another language used by someone in Israel, it is a working language of the state, a bit less important than Hebrew but more important than Arabic. Some articles use a row titled "working language" so perhaps we could use that here. I will reopen the request again for the last time. MylowattsIAm (talk) 08:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to support this suggestion. More sources are needed to back the claim of English as the working language. Ahri.boy (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

English is used around the world, somewhat like French centuries ago. I've been to many countries in South America, Europe, and Asia-Pacific and had little problem using English. {OK, some difficulty in parts of the US.) This is partly due the prevalence of tech related documents written in English, and partly due to pop music and movies, and partly due to the annoying American tourists countries put up with. Israel is a special case. But these factors still exist. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Historically accurate information removed

User:Makeandtoss, who clearly edits with a pro-Palestine bias, has removed historically accurate information to perpetuate an inaccurate viewpoint. While the original article may have addressed the remaining territory, it's essential to note that the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza constitutes only 23% of the British Mandate for Palestine. This information holds significant importance for maintaining neutrality.

Compare:

The [[1949 Armistice Agreements]] saw Israel's borders established over most of the former remaining Mandate territory, which is not including the 77% which was previously used to establish [[Jordan]] on 11 April 1922, while the rest, the [[Jordanian annexation of the West Bank|West Bank]] and the [[Occupation of the Gaza Strip by the United Arab Republic|Gaza Strip]], were taken by [[Jordan]] and [[Egypt]] respectively.

EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I stopped reading at: who clearly edits with a pro-Palestine bias. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not simply examine his edit history to either invalidate or validate my claim? EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

He promptly archived my talk post, which called out his edits, indicating a clear intention to conceal actions that could be viewed as biased editing from initial viewers. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please cease your ad hominem attacks immediately before action is taken against you. Archiving talk pages is within my right, which is even optional and not mandated by Wikipedia that even allows blanking talk pages. As for my editing is supported by reliable sources and according to WP guidelines, unlike the last recent edit you tried to insert without a source. If it is an "indisputable fact", then I am sure it would be easy for you to provide a reliable source. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/05/opinion/is-jordan-palestine-of-course.html

80%, it's an obvious fact for anyone with any knowledge of history of the Levant, here's your reliable source. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I will gladly provide 100 more if you'd like... EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Opinion pieces are not reliable sources. And if it exists it is a fringe viewpoint in the literature. Doesn't belong in the lede as a summary of the body anyway. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It is a geographical fact, geography is not an opinion. The British Mandate for Palestine included both "Palestine" and "Jordan". Jordan constituted 80% of the British Mandate for Palestine. This is not an opinion, this is fact. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 14:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Here I have provided additional sources to support the geographical fact that Jordan comprised roughly 80% of the british mandate for palestine. Do you think this is satisfactory to update and correct the article?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/28/dueling-histories-debate-over-historic-palestine/

https://lsa.umich.edu/content/dam/cmenas-assets/cmenas-documents/unit-of-israel-palestine/Section1_BritishMandateInPalestine.pdf

https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/The%20League%20of%20Nations%20Mandate%20for%20Palestine%20-%201920.aspx?itid=lk_inline_enhanced-template#:~:text=The%20territory%20of%20the%20British,separate%20administrative%20entity%20called%20Transjordan.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestine-gaza-west-bank-borders

EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

it's essential to note that the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza constitutes only 23% of the British Mandate for Palestine. Rubbish, this is the propaganda nonsense that includes Jordan in the Mandate. Selfstudier (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Your response is completely unconstructive and baseless. Jordan was indeed a part of the British Mandate for Palestine, ummm Mandate for Palestine. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

And excluded from the Zionist provisions for nearly all of it, administered totally separately, and the border was not set until later so it wasn't even Jordan, it was just the other side of the Jordan. Selfstudier (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the relevance between that and the fact I am trying to include for the sake of neutrality. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Me either, stop writing rubbish and I won't respond to it. Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The administration of the area that constitutes Jordan today does not alter the historical fact that approximately 77% of the land allocated under the British mandate was used to establish the state of Jordan. The timing of border agreements made by outside additional parties does not negate the established borders and the allocation of land. Your argument appears to rely on a strawman fallacy EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please cite a reliable source showing this 77%. When you can't find one, let me know. Selfstudier (talk) 16:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Are these not Wikipedia:Reliable sources?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/28/dueling-histories-debate-over-historic-palestine/

https://lsa.umich.edu/content/dam/cmenas-assets/cmenas-documents/unit-of-israel-palestine/Section1_BritishMandateInPalestine.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestine-gaza-west-bank-borders

EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Idk, you tell me. Selfstudier (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It was a rhetorical question. They are obviously reliable sources. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

You mentioned the Mandate for Palestine -> "Whilst the Mandate for Palestine document covered both Mandatory Palestine (from 1920) and the Emirate of Transjordan (added in 1921), Transjordan was never part of Mandatory Palestine." and 4 reliable sources cited to that. Selfstudier (talk) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Awesome, from strawman fallacy to now changing the goalpost. :) I provide reliable sources, now they are not good enough. We're not talking about Mandatory Palestine, my edit CLEARLY said British Mandate for Palestine. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

British Mandate for Palestine was a document, but your edit falsely and misleadingly makes a geographic connection with the area size. This point is irrelevant as far as the literature is concerned. And it still does not belong to the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Those said reliable sources contradict your claim. The second states that "Palestine, therefore, was not partitioned in 1921–1922. Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area." Yes, Zionsim was never intended to expand to Transjordan, but that doesn't preclude it from happening as some more-extreme early Zionist organizations were less amenable to existing agreements, such as the Lehi. Even if the claim is correct, the citations are weak at best and disingenuous at worst. Abu-Lughod, one of the citations, is a fringe pro-Palestinian author who states "A series of advertisements that appeared in major American newspapers in the course of 1983 claimed openly that Jordan is Palestine. The series was presumably paid for by 'private' sponsors who support Israel but have been reported to be acting on behalf of certain sectors of Israel's leadership." This is clearly conspiratorial, verging on antisemitic, a claim that in of itself is provided with no support. 2601:1C2:C082:6CE0:954:7F92:13F2:DE01 (talk) 06:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

NPOV in the lede

Does anyone disagree with the content or the phrasing in this paragraph:

Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine, and the Holy Land. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite, and later, Israelite and Judahite states, and is referred to as the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. The region was successively conquered and assimilated by the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Arab Caliphates, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mamluks and the Ottomans, causing the region to become very cosmopolitan. The late 19th century saw the rise of Zionism in Europe, a movement seeking a Jewish homeland, which garnered British support during World War I. During the war, the Ottomans were defeated and the British Mandate for Palestine was set up in 1920. Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestine increased considerably, leading to intercommunal conflict between Jews and Arabs. The 1947 UN Partition Plan triggered a civil war between the two groups, which saw the expulsion and flight of most of Mandatory Palestine's predominantly Arab population, a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinians known as the Nakba in Palestinian society.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I've added

...exacerbated by British colonial policy of divide and rule.

at the end of the sentence on intercommunal conflict Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you remove the cosmopolitan part in the lead OR add the corresponding info in the body as the lead is supposed to be a summary of the body? Also could you please check the article length as this article was previously tagged as being too long? Wafflefrites (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

That is a small paragraph summarising thousands of years of history, I think it is very concise, and smaller than a lot paragraphs in other ledes or even in this lede. Are citations included when discussing the article length?

Is that not a basic fact backed up by sources, therefore not needing to be in the body as per WP:Lede? Regardless I agree it needs to be mentioned in the body of the article, I'll work on it now. Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: Please revert first and seek consensus, rather than the other way around. As much as I agree with the framing of your edits, but this is really overdetailed. Lede should be as brief and factual as possible, without any analyses or the mention of multiple other things. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll shorten the final sentence to

...Arab population, a central component of what is known as the Nakba in Palestinian society.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Still overdetailed, especially the cosmopolitan and the whole Nakba thing. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

They're small one clause sentences. The cosmopolitan part summarises the effect lots of different ruling empires had on the region and links that sentence back to the region/rounds it off. The Nakba sentence is just a few words long to add a highly relevant page link. Furthermore, the paragraph still remains quite short. Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I changed very to fairly cosmopolitan Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to think of a couple words we could add to imply previous Jewish migrations such as after the Spanish inquisition Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I am ok with shortening the sentence and don’t mind keeping the link to Nakba, but I will admit I my reasoning is completely biased, so I cannot really provide appropriate reasoning on that. Please see WP:LENGTH for article length guidelines. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The guidelines are quite ambiguous, there might be a way to include the information in this paragraph with less words without killing the flow but I'm not seeing it Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s under WP:SIZERULE. I can check the length later and trim appropriately if needed. I think I am ok with keeping the link to Nakba because the link was previously in the lead and seemed important to some editors, but that is pretty much the reason. Probably need additional feedback from others. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the part saying in Palestinian society is key to state the perspective Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Would it not be easier to trim the sections down a little rather than the lede?

Also would very cosmopolitan be lede worthy? The only reason I put fairly was because I only had two sources. I suppose the word assimilated alludes to this, idk, but it wasn't necessarily the various empires causing this but waves of migration Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I do really think this is key to the history of Israel/Palestine region and I'm amazed it wasn't already talked about in the article. Also, I don't understand why you referenced malaria Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not familiar with that part of the history. Is it in the Wikipedia article for Palestine (region)? I mentioned malaria because I am wondering how cosmopolitan the region was if malaria was endemic. Also I am wondering if the cosmopolitan part is not mentioned because this article is mostly focusing on the region when it was/is named Israel. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose it’s the age old focus on political history rather than social history Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Wafflefrites how about rewriting the sentence that lists empires and replacing it with:

Located at a continental crossroad, the southern Levant came under the rule of many different empires, such as the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Arab Caliphates, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mamluks and the Ottomans, with its wide array of holy sites in various faiths attracting waves of immigration throughout history.

This leads into the next sentence well and flows well, and we could trim the 26 words from elsewhere. Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I would remove “many” and “its wide array of” for concision Wafflefrites (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I suppose 'many' is rendered superfluous by the long list immediately after Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

What I'm seeing is mass changes by 2 new editors....... let's make sure we give good edit summaries. And let's make sure if there are reverts this is not taking personally....we can discuss things. Moxy🍁 03:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah sorry I get impatient Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:50, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Obv the premise for discussion shouldn’t be me defending changes but rather multiple people contributing to a consensus on the changes Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The list of empires wasn’t random, it was a list of empires in the order of those that ruled over the region. I really don’t think it makes sense for this period of history to be entirely ignored here. Alexanderkowal (talk) 05:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the copyedit; naming the various empires is unnecessary detail for the lead; "many different empires" is better. Although, I think even better would be improved by mentioning (in some brief formulation) that the different empires included Jewish, Islamic, Christian, and "other" empires. The whole "crossroads of three continents" thing. It explains why the area is important to Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others. Levivich (talk) 06:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that, although the many different empires refers to the time period after Judah. I think that would have to be in the first sentence of the paragraph Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

How about “… Holy Land, and has been controlled by Jewish, Muslim, and Christian polities throughout history.” Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Recent changes

@Alexanderkowal: The recent edits are overdetailed and editorial, please summarize as follows:

• From "Situated at a continental crossroad, the southern Levant came under the rule of many different empires, such as" to "The southern Levant came under the rule of many different empires, such as"
• From " with holy sites of various faiths attracting waves of immigration throughout history." to "with holy sites of various faiths" [all countries have witnessed waves of immigration throughout history, nothing special here]
• From "Increased Jewish immigration and British colonial policy of divide and rule led" to "Increased Jewish immigration and British policies led to"
• From "most of Mandatory Palestine's predominantly Arab population, known as the Nakba in Palestinian society, however a minority remained and became Arab citizens of Israel." to "most of Mandatory Palestine's predominantly Arab population, also known as the Nakba"

Makeandtoss (talk) 12:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the first change but not the others.

The point of the sentence on waves of immigration is to allude to it being historically ethnically diverse, and page link to a relevant page on social history of the region.

For the British policy one, maybe just page link to divide and rule through British colonial policy? I’m surprised the British empire page doesn’t have a section on their style of rule in comparison to other colonial empires.

The one about Arab citizens of Israel is key to clarify, although it is controversial due to the accusations of apartheid. I think it’s very open to discussion Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I fixed the Nakba one, not just known to Palestinians, to many. Selfstudier (talk) 13:14, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that sentence was key to stating the perspective, and it is predominantly and primarily known in Palestinian society Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

That is just false. Selfstudier (talk) 13:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

My point is that the English Wikipedia reader is unlikely to have heard of it Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

There are many things that an English reader might not have heard of, Aliyah for example, but both these things are explained in the text so not a problem. Selfstudier (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

the Aliyah page is linked to via "Jewish migration" precisely because an english reader is unlikely to have heard it. Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Its loci is in Palestinian society, just like the loci for the much wider known holocaust is in Israeli society. Any remembrance of Nakba is focused on Palestinian society Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I thought you just made your point, is this another one? How many do you have? Selfstudier (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes and you'd do well to address it. Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: As seen here there is no consensus for "in Palestinian society" so please remove it. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

There also wasn’t consensus for him to remove it, but since I initially acted without consensus I’ll revert.

I have a really hard time knowing when consensus has been reached as people often don’t admit defeat in an argument when the outcome is binary Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I added it because I felt I’d totally refuted his points or argument, if I had left it a day with no response would that have been the time to change it? Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Nothing was refuted, merely asserted.the loci for the much wider known holocaust is in Israeli society Jews everywhere, I would have thought. Any remembrance of Nakba is focused on Palestinian society, see The U.N. is marking the 75th anniversary of Palestinians' displacement Selfstudier (talk) 09:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I assumed your comment decrying my persistence was admission of refutation. I know Nakba is quite widely commemorated, especially in the Muslim world, however the loci is very important, Palestinians primarily commemorate it, if they stopped everyone would stop. The link you put also emphasises Palestinian society Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

No-one disputes that Palestinians commemorate the Nakba. That was not the objection, it was the idea that Nakba is known only to Palestinians. In any case, that sort of detail is not necessary in the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

it introduces the perspective of the Nakba article, and page links to Palestinian which is necessary for Israel's lede. Note that it isn't linked elsewhere Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

The Nakba link is sufficient for the perspective. The reason that Palestinians are not linked anywhere is due to the practice of referring to them as Arabs "which saw the expulsion and flight of most of Mandatory Palestine's predominantly Arab population" for example, that "Arab population" is Palestinian, and the vast majority of "Arab citizens of Israel" are as well Palestinian. But it is not crucial for this article, links to the conflict, the territories and the hr issues are sufficient imo. Selfstudier (talk) 11:07, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll page link Palestinians from Arab Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

No such thing as "defeat in an argument". On Wikipedia in particular decisions are made by consensus and consensus involves following the guidelines and making compromises. Also familiarize yourself with WP:1RR. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

What if you're discussing something with someone and they don't reply Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:41, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Also you removed the bit on waves of migration without consensus, I do really think this Demographic history of Palestine (region) needs to be linked to. I think putting

... and experienced waves of migration.

with waves of migration linking to the page. This leads into the next sentence very well Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but not only are you editing aggressively and without compromise, but also without regard to any WP guideline. It is you who inserted the waves of immigration bit without consensus. You have also violated -and continued to violate- 1RR multiple times despite being told to familiarize yourself with it. I won't be filing a complain at WP:AE, but someone eventually will and AE will outright sanction you. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree I made an error in my first few edits and that this has wrongly changed the premise of discussion. However I started this discussion on the talk page and multiple editors have critiqued the edits and not stated opposition to certain inclusions, meaning there is a weak consensus, and I continue to engage in discussion. Can you please address my initial comment. Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I hope any administrator would recognise that I am editing in good faith. Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Gave a better wikilink for British policy. Selfstudier (talk) 13:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

In retrospect the ‘situated at a continental crossroad’ explains the succeeding sentence about why it came under the rule of lots of empires, but if you do still feel it’s too editorial than we can remove it Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The bit on the social history is context for the region having no real owner until the rise of ethnonationalism in the 19th century Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire owned it for centuries, that's a real owner. Levivich (talk) 13:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that it was more cosmopolitan than other regions, and the many series of migrations it saw meant that there wasn’t really an exclusive ethnic ownership Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't follow how migration or demographics means there wasn't exclusive ownership. The migrants didn't own or control the land. New York City is a cosmopolitan city with lots of migrants; it's still owned and controlled by the USA. Exclusively. Levivich (talk) 22:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s just my impression, it might be wrong. If New York City had changed hands 10s of times over the course of a millennium combined with waves of immigration and emigration I can imagine how strong ownership wouldn’t be felt. I suppose the Ottomans held onto Palestine for long enough for it to change. Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know whether the nominal ownership by Turkish, and the Arab population, would’ve negated sentiment of ownership Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose they possibility of losing something doesn’t always make people loosen their grip Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

In the next paragraph I think it should mention that there was immigration to Israel from people displaced by WW2 (and the holocaust) Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: Since the "with holy sites of various faiths attracting waves of immigration throughout history." has no consensus, please have it removed. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, can we discuss it? I can look through sources Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

• [2] states "Typical of the cities of the Levant was a mixed population. ‘Levantine’ was an omnibus term used especially to refer to the Armenian, Greek, Italian and Jewish merchants...Conversions of individuals from one cultural environment to the next and back again were everyday occurrences. A new light is shed on minorities here. Neither marginalised nor treated as objects of tolerance or intolerance, in a social system based on communication and flexibility, they were the system's pillars and driving force." That's just in the abstract, I don't have access to the article
• [3] states "Anyone who studies the material culture of Egypt and the Levant will agree that migration, trade, translation, and assimilation were common practice." unsure if this is talking generally or about the first millennium BC
• [4] states "Migrants of various ethnic, religious and social origins made their way to Palestine, or crossed it while heading to other locations, or relocated their place of permanent residence, virtually in any given period between the mid-seventh century and the turn of the twelfth, as well as later on." I don't have access so can't see it talk about motives
• [5] states "the westward migration of the Jewish merchants from Iraq [during the 10th century]...contributed greatly to the economic prosperity in Palestine and Egypt"
• [6] states "This means that the peoples living here have an identity distinct from the neighboring peoples but they have nevertheless always had an ongoing exchange through trade, inter�marriage, migration, exile, and displacement with many of the other regional peoples."

It appears Arabs migrated for economic prosperity, so saying holy sites was wrong. It is a good page to link to though. I do think mention has to be made of migration from across the old world, or something referring to it being cosmopolitan and relatively diverse. Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, that is not how WP works. When material is challenged, reversion first and then discussion per WP:BRD. Even if true, it is not a unique piece of information and does not belong to the lede of Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

?? I did revert it. I then started discussion. Please WP:Assume good faith Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I only noticed now. I am not arguing against the factuality, but against the prominence of this to the summary of an article about Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's context for the later Zionist migrations. Palestine was fairly cosmopolitan and was effectively built on migration with no real indigenous people compared to other regions. Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the connection with Zionist migrations. On the contrary genetic evidence has shown that Palestinians show a large degree of genetic continuity with Bronze era Levantines. Still not relevant to the lede of the state of Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course it is relevant, it summarises the social history of the region. If you disagree with the phrasing then we can rework it, but the content is very relevant in my view. Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

How would you summarise the social history of the region? I think the clause would have to refer to flow (migration) and stock (settled population), however I don't know where to place the emphasis. I think indicating ownership of the region by an ethnic group violates NPOV for this article and would also be WP:Synth. Maybe talking indirectly about the population and stating the Islamisation of the region? I think that's a good compromise Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"ownership of the region"? "social history of the region"? I really don't see any of this as due for the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 11:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The social history of the region is discussed in the body and the lede and it’s incredibly relevant to the conflict. It doesn’t make sense to only start talking about social history from the 19th century when the periods before that are so relevant. Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine. Levivich (talk) 13:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, but it’s not as clear cut as other regions, and I think it’s natural for Israel’s page to have a slight Zionist bias. I’m more trying to correct for the lack of Zionist voices on this page, which I find surprising, to impale the content on the fence Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:58, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I’m more trying to correct for the lack of Zionist voices on this page Seriously? Selfstudier (talk) 14:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

? The only people I’ve engaged w on this page have been very anti-Israel, as much as I disagree with Zionism, particularly this manifestation of Zionism, in order to maintain NPOV Zionist arguments need to be involved and the grains of truth in them used, if what we’re trying to do is build a neutral encyclopaedia. Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The other way of looking at it is there are a lot of pro Israel (not Zionist) editors at this page (there are) but they don't agree with you. Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I haven't received much disagreement, I'm surprised the Nakba inclusion didn't need an RfC. Also, see WP:Enemy Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I haven't received much disagreement except from the very anti-Israel people who have engaged with you? Think you better ease off with the them and us rhetoric, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah you’re probably right, it’s just the topic is often very partisan. I wouldn’t say I’m an us, more an irrelevant bystander with no deep understanding Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

in order to maintain NPOV Zionist arguments need to be involved and the grains of truth in them used No, that's not WP:NPOV. The "V" in NPOV is the viewpoints of reliable sources, not the viewpoints of the subjects of the articles. Levivich (talk) 22:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

There are many RS that have a Zionist view or bias, including academic sources Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

See Israel#Modern period and the emergence of Zionism.

I think this article should mention the motives for the Arab migrations from the 7th to 12th centuries. Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Why? Selfstudier (talk) 10:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

because it's relevant detail and I think it's a question the reader might have. Just say for economic prosperity I think Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss I disagree with your reversion of my edit, the Islamisation of the region does summarise content in the body and is entirely relevant and lede worthy as it provides context for the current conflict. I don't understand your argument here, it seems a very common sense inclusion. Unless you think there's negative connotations with the term "Islamisation"? Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Same applies to paganism, Judaism and Christianity. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s included there as context for the subsequent sentences. Would you rather it referred to Arab migrations rather than Islamisation? Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Nakba in the lede

On whether to include the Nakba pagelink in this paragraph in the lede:

Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine, and the Holy Land. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite, and later, Israelite and Judahite states, and is referred to as the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. Situated at a continental crossroad, the southern Levant subsequently came under the rule of different empires, such as the Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine, Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid, Seljuk, Crusader, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottoman empires. The late 19th century saw the rise of Zionism in Europe, a movement seeking a Jewish homeland, which garnered British support during World War I. During the war, British occupation led to the setting up of Mandatory Palestine in 1920. Increased Jewish immigration combined with British colonial policy led to intercommunal conflict between Jews and Arabs. The 1947 UN Partition Plan triggered a civil war between the two groups, which saw the expulsion and flight of most of Mandatory Palestine's predominantly Arab population, known as the Nakba, while a minority remained and became Arab citizens of Israel.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm linking to this on Talk:Nakba and Talk:Zionism in the hope we can build a strong consensus on this issue. Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Can someone more experienced and more neutral than me please take over and manage discussion Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be an WP:RFC? See WP:RFCOPEN. And where is the WP:RFCBEFORE? (ie Is this even disputed by anyone other than yourself?) Selfstudier (talk) 15:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t dispute it, I’m for its inclusion. Two people have stated either opposition or wariness. Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a weak consensus at the moment to include it. On such a controversial issue, a strong one is infinitely better although the merit of this RfC would depend on a good facilitator and efforts to build a consensus from both sides. Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

You misunderstand me, where is the discussion where any editor queried the inclusion of the word nakba? Selfstudier (talk) 15:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It was reverted with a valid reason, I reinstated it due to weak consensus and started this RfC so as to hear arguments Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If all we are talking about is an insertion, a removal and a reinsertion without any subsequent discussion, then there is presumed consensus.

Btw, if the removal was for a valid reason, then it would have been better, although not compulsory, to have started the discussion per WP:BRD.

But if there is no current discussion, then this RFC is not required and you should close it (remove the RFC tags). Selfstudier (talk) 16:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I’ll close it and maybe reopen it if there’s further disagreement Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, include -- this is a different article from 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight, so it makes sense to mention Nakba in the lead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, this is redundant, we already mention the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight. HaOfa (talk) 18:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is a discussion not an RFC so no need for support/oppose comments. Selfstudier (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Would it be an improvement if it were to say:

  known as the Nakba in Palestinian society.

  in order to make it clear that that article is written from the Palestinian perspective, and frame it. If this were done, would you support its inclusion in the lede here? Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  that article is written from the Palestinian perspective If that's true, add some other perspectives so that it isn't. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have stated that the Israeli perspective on the Nakba, current and past, should be included in the body and the lede of the article. It's too intense a topic for me to write on it without a deeper understanding. Until then, I do think it'd be good to frame the article here. This also clearly differentiates it from the expulsion and flight article, so the reader understands why we included them both. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Nope, you can't frame the article as not being NPOV merely because it hasn't been edited to your satisfaction, that's not the way it works. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Of course you can, this is entirely how it works, via consensus of editors. If multiple editors question the NPOV of an article, it gets an NPOV banner until that is addressed. I think the Nakba article is very good article, and it's right that the bulk should be written from the Palestinian perspective, but there also needs to be a bit from the Israeli perspective, that isn't just apologia. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:39, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  this is entirely how it works, via consensus of editors. If multiple editors question the NPOV of an article, it gets an NPOV banner If that was the way it worked, every contentious article would have a permanent NPOV tag. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Ahaha true Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  There is no neutrality tag at the Nakba article, therefore it is NPOV and not written from the Palestinian perspective only. If you add such a tag, then go to the article and explain what needs to be fixed there and it will get fixed, either way it is not "Palestinian". Selfstudier (talk) 18:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'll move discussion to that page and clarify my argument. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Separate section for "Criticism (of Israel)"?

In the Government and politics section, there is a "see also" link for the Criticism of Israel. I wonder if there should be a separate section altogether for that, especially considering some of the criticism for the state is not entirely about "government and politics" (examples: islamophobia, antisemitism, etc). Josethewikier (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Not what we are looking for...WP:STRUCTURE "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure..." WP:CSECTION " Sections within an article dedicated to negative criticisms are normally also discouraged. " Moxy🍁 03:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 May 2024

There is a typo. JewIsh instead of Jewish. Please fix it. Grakkus (talk) 16:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

done Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 May 2024

The page states that Israel is located in the historic Canaan and “Palestine” areas. This is supposed to be “Judea” as historically “Palestine” only existed as a British Mandate from 1918-1948. Please update this language to be historically accurate as Canaan and Judea are the correct terms for this point in Israel’s history. Canaan does not exist today, and the land of Judea is where Israel currently exists. (Submitted by a Middle East historian) 98.246.173.176 (talk) 13:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Unsourced opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)