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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowellian (talk | contribs) at 04:14, 14 April 2007. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Magic: The Gathering sets

Self-nomination. I created this article over three years ago and am responsible for much of its content, but it has received hundreds of valuable edits from many (I would estimate around 50) other Wikipedia editors as new sets were released. This is probably the most comprehensive single page on the subject that exists on the Internet. It has already been cited by the official Wizards of the Coast Magic: The Gathering website as a comprehensive reference to Magic sets (see http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/1006). The page is stable; as seen from the talk page, the last content dispute of any length was two-and-a-half years ago, and the content consists of verifiable and cited facts. I recently decided to try to bring the article up to featured status, by adding more citations, adding ALT text to images, etc. You can see the differences from before and afterwards. I believe it now satisfies all the Featured List criteria. —Lowellian (reply) 00:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose pending the following changes:
  • External links in body text. Need to be removed.
Hm. That's it. Otherwise it looks good. Make the fix, and I would change my vote.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could only find one instance of an external link (it was a link to the MTG Gatherer database) within the body text, and I have converted it into a citation reference. If there are any more instances, please let me know. —Lowellian (reply) 03:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let me address these objections:
  • "Not all the release dates are sourced."
I originally only sourced the exact release dates (the ones that give an exact date rather than just the month). I have now sourced the inexact month release dates as well. Every single set now has either the prerelease or release date sourced (as discussed in the article, the prerelease is always a Saturday, and the release is always (from 1996 to 2003) two Mondays after the pre-release or (from 2003 onwards) two Fridays after the pre-release.
  • "Same goes for the set counts..."
The set counts are sourced at the top of the table column, rather than for each set individually. Both the official Gatherer database and Crystal Keep give all set counts, the former giving card-by-card details and the latter giving rarity summaries as well as checklists. I have cited both sources. Within the table itself, I give additional citations in special cases (for example, to explain why Alpha has 7 fewer cards than Beta and Unlimited even though the three sets were originally intended to be identical, and to address "secrets" like the ultra-rare in Unhinged).
  • "...and codenames."
All development codenames are now cited.
  • "The images don't have fair use rationales."
The expansion symbols are being used in an educational manner, to explain how to identify cards and their sets. The expansion symbols on this page constitute only a minor part of the product (Magic cards) that Wizards of the Coast is selling, and has no effect on Wizards of the Coast's ability to sell their cards. Also, keep in mind that rather than objecting to this article for its use of expansion symbol images, Wizards of the Coast has directed its official website's readers to this Wikipedia article precisely for its comprehensive explanation of those expansion symbols (see http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/1006).
  • "The image in the lead will probably not have a possible rationale. There's no reason to show either of those cards."
As the image caption explains, those two cards are being used in an educational manner to show the location of expansion symbols on the cards and as two examples of cards from different sets and of different rarities to show how expansion symbols identify both set and rarity of a card. These two cards are a bare fraction of the sets that Wizards of the Coast is selling. Wizards of the Coast sells boxes, tournament packs, and booster packs, not individual cards as singles. I assert that the low-quality images of these two cards has no effect on the ability of Wizards of the Coast to sell Magic cards.
—Lowellian (reply) 12:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The images still do not have fair use rationales. That's not something you get to decide, all unfree images must have fair use rationales. Please read WP:FUC. Not harming Wizards of the Coast only satisfies FUC#2, there's still the other nine. The lead image definitely fails FUC#8 because you're showing cards without explanation for those cards. I don't need to see a picture to understand that the expansion symbols appear on the right side of the middle of cards. Jay32183 17:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the fair use rationales are there. Going through all the criteria on that page:
  1. There is no free equivalent for either Magic cards or expansion symbols. They are the subjects of the article.
  2. As explained above, they do not replace market role of the copyrighted material.
  3. Very little copyrighted work is being used, the minimum possible. The two cards shown are in a low-resolution image.
  4. The material has indeed been previously published, both in real-life (on and as cards), in books like the Magic Encyclopedia, and on the Internet.
  5. The material is encyclopedic. It serves an educational and informative value within the encyclopedia.
  6. They meet Wikipedia's image use policy.
  7. They are used in at least one article (specifically, this one).
  8. They do contribute significantly to the article. I don't see why you say it fails FUC#8. Explaining that an expansion symbol is on the right side of the card is not the same as a picture showing exactly where it is — and hence it serves an educational and informative value. And the expansion symbols are clearly needed; you can't just say something looks like a globe on a helix, which could be imagined hundreds of different ways...you need to show it for the reader of the encyclopedia.
  9. The images are only being used in the article namespace.
  10. The images are identified as originating from Wizards of the Coast.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand why you say these images don't fall under fair use. —Lowellian (reply) 20:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There must be a fiar use rationale on the image page of all unfree images. The image in the lead does not make a significant contribution, as there is no critical commentary on those cards or on magic cards in general. That image needs to go. No one really needs to see it, just saying it is educational doesn't make it educational. Not one of the images passes FUC#10. Jay32183 20:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • When I look at the image pages the fair use rationales are not there. You can't argue your way around it. The rationale is either there or it is not. I checked and it is not. Jay32183 20:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have now added fair use rationale to the image page of every single image appearing on the page. —Lowellian (reply) 21:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • The "cookie cutter" rationales are insufficient. To satisfy FUC#8 it has to say why "this image is in this article". Simply saying that the image contributes significantly is not enough, you must explain why the image contributes significantly. As for the image in the lead, my objection stands as long as the image is in the article. If it is not removed I will continue to object because it makes zero contribution to the article, since text adequately conveys the same information. Jay32183 21:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose
    • No fair use rationales
    • Improper title: It should be at least "List of Magic: the Gathering sets"
    • no spaces before refs, and they need to be after punctuation, per Wikipedia:Footnotes (prime example of footnotes thrown on another lines by this.
    • I believe the article would gain from splitting the long content notes separately from the references themselves with templates (e.g. as in List of European Union member states by political system.
  • Circeus 19:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can address the first three objections:
—Lowellian (reply) 20:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • change vote to oppose Re Fair use: NO... the rationale you list here doesn't fix the problems with the image pages. The text you put above is VERY good, but it needs to be on each individual image page. Simply listing it here doesn't do any good. JayG has noted that the rationales are NOT on the image pages. That MUST be fixed. I am cool with the title, since not EVERY list does not need to be boilerplated with the "List of" title, especially since this article has a lot of text, and is a hybrid list/article. Fix the image pages, and I will change my vote back (again!) --Jayron32|talk|contribs 21:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added fair use rationale to the image page of every single image appearing on the page. —Lowellian (reply) 21:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose per excessive use of fair use images. Renata 22:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • What would qualify as a non-"excessive" use of fair use images to you? SnowFire 22:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Renata, this time, I agree with you. Showing the each logo three times? Also, there isn't any text to illustrate. I thought there was an agreement that simplying mentioning something wasn't enough to justify the use of an unfree image. The logos should probably be limited to the set pages, where there is detailed discussion of the set rather than just the set's name and release date. Jay32183 22:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • There are three logos for each set, so three logos are shown. When a company releases three different versions of a product, each with a different logo, to reasonably explain the product, all three logos should be shown. To show less then all three logos would render the informational content of the article incomplete. —Lowellian (reply) 04:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, given that the fair usage rationales are placed on each image page (which is an easily fixable matter, and seems to have already been done?). There is no magical threshold above which further fair use images become "bad;" each and every one of those icons is useful as an identifier of cards from the set, and irreplaceable by another image (I can draw my own scimitar, but it won't be the actual logo people use to identify the set which renders it useless). There are a lot of Magic sets, and that's all there is to it. These are not pretty decorative pictures; these are symbols that are the main way people differentiate Magic sets, since the back of each card is the same.
As for the title matter, eh, it's a push. There are vague arguments either way for "List of" vs. no list, and it's not worth the effort. Either title is fine, so the current one wins by default.
The card images on top of the article... are somewhat less vital, I will grant. Still, they provide a useful contrast for the rarity coloration issue, and provide an introduction to the card face for those completely unfamiliar (a good thing, no?). If they're the only thing holding the list back, I'd say to go ahead and remove them, but I think a case can be made there as well, though they are more relevant to the "article" content of the text rather than the list portions. SnowFire 22:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support now. For real this time. No take backs. And, for those that complain that there are "too many" Fair Use images on this page, I am not sure that there is any policy that says you can only have X number of fair use images on a page. They are all small, they illustrate the sets in question, and other featured lists, such as: List of South Park episodes. That articles uses Fair Use images with at least the same frequency as this one, and the images serve the same illustrative purpose.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 01:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • There isn't an specific number, but showing the same symbol multiple times is a violation of FUC#3. "Don't use multiple unfree images when one will do" Jay32183 01:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • One will not do, for the reason that the three set images illustrate the three different rarities in each set. In some of the sets, especially the more recent ones, there are actually small design differences between the three versions besides coloration. —Lowellian (reply) 04:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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