Talk:Spanish Civil War

Infobox commanders and leaders again

Having read the discussion above I wonder whether there is any official WP “policy” or whatever (“guidelines”, “recommendations” etc) as to who should be listed among “leaders and commanders” in infoboxes of articles on wars and battles. Currently the assortment of people listed appears to be a fairly disputable selection to me (as to the point above, I believe Lister should be out). Please let me share my thoughts.

Republicans:

There are obvious must-be people:

• Azaña (president of the Republic)
• Largo Caballero (prime minister)
• Negrin (prime minister)
• Rojo (central military commander)
• Miaja (central military commander)

However, among the rest none appears a must-be:

name	role	my suggestion
Prieto	minister of war from May 1937 till Apr 1938, also minister of air & navy from Sep 1936 till May 1937. Besides, one of PSOE leaders with major impact on party policy and policy-making in the Republican zone. After spring of 1938 barely relevant	in
Casado	key protagonist behind the March 1939 coup, which had enormous impact on war developments. Besides this, he was commanding at the army level (March 1938 - March 1939), but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox (Army of Extremadura: Joaquín Pérez Salas, Ricardo Burillo, Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Antonio Escobar Huerta, Army of Andalusia: Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Domingo Moriones Larraga, Francisco Menoyo Baños, Army of Levante: Juan Hernández Saravia, Leopoldo Menéndez López)	in
Companys	President of Catalan autonomous government throughout the entire war, though with decreasing decision-making capacity. However, he was an important player within the Republican coalition almost until the end (except 2 final months)	in
Aguirre	President of Basque autonomous government, effectively in power in only 1 out of 3 Basque provinces and only between Oct 1936 and June 1937. Later, because he commanded no resources, his political role was negligible	out
Martínez Cabrera	Yes, he was the chief of staff, but effectively merely for 3 months (mid-November 1936 till mid-Feb 1937) and is not known for having any impact on war developments. Manuel Matallana, who was also chief of general staff since late 1938, is not listed in the infobox	out
Modesto	Commanding at the army level from August 1938 till March 1939, but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox	out
Hernández Saravia	He was the minister of war during one month, between Aug and Sep 1936, and his impact on war developments was close to naught (also Luis Castelló Pantoja was briefly minister of war, but is not in the infobox). Later he briefly commanded Army of the South, again with little impact and again, there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox	out
Durruti	Though an iconic person among the Anarchists of then and today, he barely classifies among “commanders and leaders”. In terms of command, he briefly (July – Nov 1936) led loose troops of few thousand people, comparable perhaps to a regiment. In terms of political leadership, the Anarchists were led by García Oliver, who is missing in the infobox	out
Ascaso	Barely known for any military role, politically in Aug 1936 – Aug 1937 he led Regional Defense Council of Aragon, a local governing body, and then became a non-person. Between August 1936 and October 1937 a certain Belarmino Tomas was president of the local Asturias Council/Committee, a semi-sovereign body which certainly governed more people than the Aragon Council, but Tomas is out from the infobox	out

Also, there are some individuals which might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox, though I would leave them out:

• Giral (prime minister July to Sep 1936)
• Garcia Oliver (Anarchist leader, with major impact, CNT-FAI is listed among "Belligerents")
• Diaz (Communist leader, with major impact)
• Matallana (chief of staff; if Martínez Cabrera is in, Matallano also should be)
• Buiza (commander of Republican navy)
• Hidalgo de Cisneros (commander of Republican air force)
• Castelló Pantoja (minister of war in Giral government)

Nationalists:

Undisputable candidates are few:

• Franco (since Oct 1936 supreme military commander and head of state, de facto leader)
• Queipo (leading southern troops throughout the entire war)
• Mola (leading northern troops from July 1936 till June 1937)
• Davila (leading northern troops from June 1937 till March 1939, minister of war from Jan 1938 onwards)

and now the doubtful ones:

name	role	my suggestion
Sanjurjo	pre-agreed leader of the coup, but died in aviation accident before the coup well unfolded. A must-be in an article on conspiracy, and perhaps in an article on a coup, but not on the war	out
Yague	commander of various military formations, from a "column" to a corps, but never above this level (never commanded an army), even though in the summer of 1936 his military role was vital. However, even commanders at the army level among Nationalist are out (Centre: Saliquet, Levante: Orgaz)	out
Cabanellas	president of makeshift rebel executive between July and September 1936. Leader of the coup in Aragon, apart from this no major military role. Anyway since mid-1937 seriously ill, died 1938	out
Varela	since mid-war commanded formations comparable to a corps, but never above this level. Rather minor political role due to his monarchist leaning and loose links to Carlism	out
Goded	led the coup in Barcelona, captured in July 1936 and executed. An imporant person in an article on the coup, but totally out of place among war leaders and commanders	out
Hedilla	following imprisonment of Jose Antonio provisional leader of Falange, one of 2 most important political groupings supporting the rebels. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. Anyway, even this minor role was over in April 1937, when arrested, tried and totally marginalised	out
Fal	political leader of the Carlists, one of 2 most important political groupings in the rebel zone. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. In December 1936 arrested and exiled, later merely on sidelines of wartime politics, with no impact and decision-making capacity whatsoever	out
Roatta	commander of CTV between Sep 1936 and Aug 1937. CTV was 35-50,000 people, so comparable to a strong corps or a weak army, but other army commanders are generally not listed, either in the Republican or the Nationalist rubric	out
Bastico	commander of CTV between Aug and Oct 1937. 3 months of command seems a bit short to merit a place in the infobox, especially that CTV was a merely one of many corps	out
Sperle	commander of Legion Condor, Nazi airforce group which formed perhaps the most important component of the Nationalist aviation. However, it was just one of many components, and Sperle commanded it merely from Sep 1936 till Oct 1937. If he is in, why the following Condor commanders, Volkmann (Nov 1937 - Oct 1938) and Richthoffen (Oct 1938 - March 1939) are out?	out

As to individuals who might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox (again, I would leave all of them out):

• NN - chief of General Staff (Jefe de Estado Mayor del Cuartel General - but who was he? have never found out)
• Berti (CTV commander from late 1937 till end of the war, if Roatta and Bastico are in he should be in as well)
• Kindelan (head of Nationalist aviation)
• Moreno Fernandez (head of Nationalist navy)
• Serrano Súñer (key Franco political adviser and to some extent decision-maker, minister of interior Jan 1938 till the end)
• Volkmann (Condor commander, if Sperle is in he should be as well)
• Richthoffen (Condor commander, if Sperle is in he should be as well)
• Orgaz (head of Army of Levant)
• Saliquet (head of Army of Centre, member of Junta de Defensa)
• Ponte (member of Junta de Defensa)
• Gil (member of Junta de Defensa)

In case of both Republicans and Nationalists some names seem derived from "Belligerents" section of the infobox, i.e. the logic being that each "belligerent party" deserves its leader to be listed. First, I do not think so. Then, "belligerents" also contains a fairly nonsensical selection, e.g. there is "Army of Africa" among the Nationalists (what about all other armies, and navy, and airforce) and there is POUM among the Republicans (and PCE, far more important, is missing), let alone that "Germany" and "Italy" are listed among Nationalist belligerents, while the USSR is not listed among the Republican ones. But perhaps targeting the "Belligerents" section is the task to do once we are done with this.

Final general comment: I believe stuffing the infobox with 15 "commanders and leaders" on each side is an overkill. To my taste, 5-6 would be perfectly OK. rgds, --Hh1718 (talk) 13:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@Hh1718: Figured this deserved a response, as you've clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it. I don't think having a lot of commanders in the infobox is overkill, as this war is incredibly multi-faceted; neither the Republicans nor the Nationalists were easily reduced to a few commanders, locales or factions. But I do agree that it should probably be trimmed back a bit and I broadly agree with most of the points made here. The only two removals I would disagree with are:

• Agirre: He was a pretty big figure in the Basque country's efforts and the northern front in the war. I think you need some representation of that effort in there, even if not necessarily Agirre himself.
• Durruti: While his scope of action was obviously limited to the beginning of the war, I'd argue his role was an absolutely vital commander in that phase of the war. This was during a period where the Republican state functionally didn't exist and Durruti was one who led the militia system during this time, not to mention his leading role in defeating the coup in Barcelona.

--Grnrchst (talk) 11:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Grnrchst, thanks for your thoughts.

It is perhaps funny, but following one month I got even more restrictive and am leaning towards leaving also Prieto, Casado and Companys out.

As to your comments.

• Aguirre: well, I am sort of incoherent when claiming that Companys should be in but Aguirre out, if we consider that technically, both were leading autonomous governments throughout the entire war (well, Aguirre almost, except the period Jul-Oct 1936). I agree that Aguirre was “a pretty big figure in the Basque country’s efforts”, but my point is that this “Basque country’s efforts” were of little relevance. During 24% of the war duration (8 months out of 33) he was governing public life in 2% of Spanish provinces (1 out of 50); during this period the autonomous political unit he led fielded some 9% of all Republican troops (45,000 men out of 500,000). And afterwards his role was mostly for the propaganda window-dressing: the Republicans needed him to demonstrate to western powers their own diversity and that they were not a wild, revolutionary bunch, as some in the West did believe.

• Durruti. All right, he might have been and probably was “absolutely vital” when it comes to thwarting the military coup in Barcelona, he “led the militia” and so son. This is why he is a must in an article on the July coup. But we are talking about the inbox, which should provide extremely brief basics about the 33-month-long period. If you say that a man who led some 3,000 people during 4 months needs a place in infobox because he was vital for military operations in Catalonia or Madrid, then we should have also Yague, the man who led even more troops during 3-month breakthrough operation across 5 provinces, which was realy vital for tides of the war, as it connected southern and northern parts and brought army of Africa from the Andalusian coastline to the gates of Madrid. And what about Alfonso Beorlegui, the man who during 2 months led few thousand men from Navarre to the Atlantic coast, seized Guipúscoa and cut off the entire Northern Enclave from France, not a minor thing given strategic perspective of war developments. Or Rudolf Freiherr von Moreau, the Nazi officer who was the brain behind German part of the 1936 airlift from Africa to Andalusia. Given Luftwaffe was the key component of the airforce involved and transported most troops, if there is a single man to be credited for this massive operation – which in opinion of the many turned a failed coup into a civil war – it is him. If someone really wants to go bold, he might claim that Yague, Beorlegui or Freiherr changed the course of the war. Also on the Republican side there are men who, in my humble opinion, had more impact than Durruti. What about Ildefonso Puigdendolas, the man who commanded troops which in July 1936 pushed the rebels out of the Guadalajara province, at some points from locations 30 kilometres away from Puerta del Sol in Madrid! And there is José Balibrea Vera, who commanded troops which in late July 1936 seized the entire Albacete province, controlled by the rebels, and this was the largest Republican territorial gain throughout the entire war (forhet the Ebro, Belchite or Brunete offensives, their territorial gains pale in comparison).

All right, I am aware that Aguirre and Durruti are sort of iconic figures for certain sections of the Spanish society. Apart from their actual contribution to the war, I believe this is mostly the result of decade-long Basque-nationalist and Anarchist propaganda.

Anyway, nice to talk to you. Let's see whether there is anyone else interested. Rgds, --Hh1718 (talk) 18:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Concern re: use of Payne & Palacios

I just went through the article and found that we have a fair amount of information cited to Franco: A Personal and Political Biography, a hagiography written by the American historian Stanley G. Payne and Spanish neo-Nazi Jesús Palacios Tapias. While I am not the biggest fan of Payne, I don't doubt the scholarly integrity of his earlier work and think it could contribute to a well-balanced article that gives due weight to different perspectives. But I don't extend the same assumption of good faith to his work with Palacios, which I think is a rather questionable source, to say the least.

The introduction of information from this source has brought in some very dubious claims: i.e. that the Republican Left tried to annul the 1933 election; that Mola had no role in the White Terror; and that Republicans "conducted more indiscriminate air raids on cities and civilian targets than the Nationalists". I have not seen such claims supported in any other source I have available to me, so I worry this amounts to flat-out historical revisionism. I can say for certain that Mola was a chief proponent of the White Terror (see Preston 2006); and I find the suggestion that the Republicans had the capacity to out-do the nationalists on air raids laughable, given the infamously terrible capabilities of the Spanish Republican Air Force (see Beevor 1982).

I have already provided in-text attribution to these claims, but I don't think this goes far enough. Given this would be a bold move, I wanted to bring it up in the talk page to seek consensus first: I think we should remove this source from the article altogether. I don't think it's a remotely reliable source and think this article actively suffers from its inclusion. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The claim that the Republican Left tried to annul the 1933 election is from Payne, not from Palacios, Payne has made this claim in several of his books. See for example "Alcala Zamora and the failure of the Spanish Republic, 1931-1936" [1]. There are other historians making the same claim. Example: Enrique Aguilar Gavilán says that the socialists went even further in their desire to change the election results. Juan Negrín, on behalf of his parliamentary group, urged Mr. Niceto Alcala Zamora, the President, to immediately cancel the election results and form a new government led by left-wing republicans, which would prepare a new electoral law. [2]. Aguilar Gavilan uses the book "Alcalá Zamora, Niceto: Memorias, Barcelona 1977, pp. 258-259" as the primary source. J Pratas (talk) 21:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into that! I have now removed the dubious tag on that claim, but dubious tags are still in place for the other two claims I mentioned. I'm still inclined towards removing the Payne & Palacios source from the article. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Payne's books are major scholarly studies. You can disagree with his often-favorable views of Franco--but that comes from the political viewpoint of bias of the observer. SO let's not call a major book "questionable" because it takes sides in scholarly arguments. Rjensen (talk) 03:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm only questioning the reliability of one specific book, not his entire oeuvre (as I said in my original comment, I think most of his works are valuable). And I'm calling this book questionable because it has introduced some claims I think are dubious into the article. If someone can address these remaining claims, my mind may change. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

July 1936 military uprising in Seville sub-article

I recently left the following note on the talk page of the “July 1936 military uprising in Seville” article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_1936_military_uprising_in_Seville

Why "low importance?"

"Why is this article rated of “low importance”? Aside from being thorough and well-written (I made no contribution), as I pointed out years ago on the main Spanish Civil War article, the rebels taking Seville was of critical importance without which the coup might well have failed. Without Seville and its nearby air force base, Franco would have not been able to get his Moroccan army to the mainland as the sea routes were defended by elements of the Spanish Republican Navy which did not join the coup. Originally, the main article stated that at the outset of the coup attempt the rebels seized no major cities (Seville was within the five largest cities in Spain) and I corrected this by writing “with the critical exception of Seville...”

I find this article to be superb, both well written and researched and replete with relevant images. (As stated in my note above, I made no contribution to the article so I’m not patting myself on the back!) The rebels taking Seville was absolutely critical to their ultimate success in the civil war, yet this article is rated as of “low importance” and B-. The first is absurd and the latter unworthy of the effort by editors, to all of whom I would like to express my appreciation for your time and work.

The article gets few views and its talk page virtually none, which is why I am bringing this up here. I’d have to wait until Hades freezes over to expect a response there. Would editors interested in this tragic internecine conflict please consider gathering together to rectify what I consider to be and hope to be an oversight? If any disagree with my assessment of the article, please indicate why. Thanks to all for your consideration.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 15:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The war's start date

Hi there. I've been trying to educate myself on this war's history but I have a problem. The dates of the war do not match between articles. Here are a few examples:

• The article here states it began July 18, 1936.
• The Battle of Badajoz, says it began on July 19, 1936.
• The Badajoz massacre says it began on July 17, 1936.

So which article has the right one and what are the rules for dates? That is to say, which article should be the authority of these dates? The Badajoz articles should fall under the article here, right?

I'm so confused! How do we check all articles related to this war for accuracy? MagnoliaSouth talk) 09:26, 14 May 2024 (UTC)