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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by The Nookster (talk | contribs) at 07:54, 5 June 2024 (→Introduction to contentious topics: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Welcome

Hello, Nikki and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your future contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

You can visit the Teahouse again to ask questions, or contact me via my Talk Page. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Mike.
I'll give them a good read and crack on with my first page!
I will be bold :-) Nikki Wordsmith (talk) 13:43, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation: Albert Wyndham Payne (June 15)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Asilvering was:
This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Reliable sources are required so that information can be verified. If you need help with referencing, please see Referencing for beginners and Citing sources.
 The comment the reviewer left was:
Ancestry.com, peerage.com - not reliable sources.
Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.
asilvering (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again Asilvering,
Hopefully the problems you raised have been fixed. Another helpful editor sorted the birth and death sources so I now know how to source these things much better. And I deleted the peerage.com reference. Plus I added a couple of press pieces. Thanks to you both for your help with this. Nikki :-) Nikki Wordsmith (talk) 22:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Teahouse logo
Hello, Nikki Wordsmith! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! asilvering (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your feedback Asilvering and how speedy it was. I wasn’t expecting to hear from anyone for yonks :-)
That really heartens me about being a Wikipedian.
Also I wasn’t quite sure which sources had been flagged as unreliable when I first pressed submit — so thank you for highlighting which ones they are.
I will amend them later and find more suitable sources.
I have also just found another good source in the English local press about Wyndham and one of his murals so I will add that in later too.
Have a great day!
Nikki 😎 Nikki Wordsmith (talk) 08:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Nikki Wordsmith, I'm so sorry I didn't see this feedback earlier. When you wrote it, did you use the "reply" link at the bottom of the yellow box, or did you type it in manually using "edit source"? I'm trying to find out why the discussion scripts didn't send me a ping. As an fyi, if you want to send a ping to someone, you can use Template:ping if you are writing in the source code editor, or just type an @ to bring up a "find user" list in the discussion tools if you're using that. (Discussion tools is the thing that opens up when you click "reply" on a comment.) Cheers, and good luck with your future article-writing! -- asilvering (talk) 21:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello 👋 @Asilvering
Awww it’s no problem at all. I can’t remember how I communicated this message to you. I think I got a bit confused about all the communication channels being a newbie editor. Doh! Honestly there is no need to apologise. You were super helpful in keeping me on track with what was important and focussed to get my first attempt at an article up to speed and quality. Thank you 😊 The Nookster (talk) 22:16, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation: Albert Wyndham Payne has been accepted

Albert Wyndham Payne, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider leaving us some feedback.

Thanks again, and happy editing!

141Pr {contribs} 12:21, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Thanks @Praseodymium-141. Great to see the green panel. This has made my day :-) I'll check out all the pointers above. The Nookster (talk) 13:41, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Well done on an excellent first article Albert Wyndham Payne ! Theroadislong (talk) 16:27, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the learning opportunity:-) The Nookster (talk) 17:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Theroadislong Can I ask you about offshoot edits. If that is what they are called. So as part of my Wyndham research it came to light that he flew with Henri Salmet. I added this in on Salmet's page but it got reverted. I wasn't able to source that sentence from a reliable source so I didn't. So I guess that's the reason it got reverted. This also happened with another tiny edit I did on Sophie Willan's page where I added her middle name. However, not all edits and sentences are cited, so I was wondering is there a kind of editorial trust that needs building up with users. Or am I meant to cite every single edit I make? Thanks for any help and guidance :-) The Nookster (talk) 10:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page watcher) Hey there. You don't need citations for every edit, but any disputed or potentially controversial edit should probably be cited. Also it's good practice to include citations for any big block of text such as a paragraph. Also, the middle name may have been removed for WP:BLPNAME reasons; we like to protect the privacy of living persons if things like their middle name and birthdate aren't widely known. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:46, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! @Novem Linguae thanks for your super quick response. Ah ok that makes sense about the middle name. Yes. I have a lot to learn here – on Wikipedia and in life :-)
The Salmet edit was only one sentence, there is photoographic evidence of the flight together but in an unreliable source. I was hoping to link it to the biography page as I want to keep developing the article up the grading system you so kindly linked to me.
I'm just on a mission with the wiki commons peeps to get my head wrapped around copyright on images. See you in about ten years on that topic!
Thanks for your help with this... The Nookster (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Try to stay away from those pesky unreliable sources ;-)
I'm just on a mission with the wiki commons peeps to get my head wrapped around copyright on images. See you in about ten years on that topic! De minimis, freedom of panorama, derivative works, public domain, fair use... you have a lot of fun ahead of you on that one :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those "pesky" sources are so prevalent and moorish though, especially when we survive on self-delusion :-)
My god copyright la IN Latin. I'm soooo for it. Thanks for the links! The Nookster (talk) 11:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moreish! LOL
The Nookster (talk) 11:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS I am taking being a Wikipedian very seriously too. It’s the best thing to happen in my writing life for quite a while. Please don’t be lulled into a false sense of idiocy by my humour default disposition :-)
Even though I have, a very good friend who says when I am around him, I lower his IQ. It’s not true! (Well maybe about the subject of plants.) The Nookster (talk) 13:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can't fool me. I see the genius in you! –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ha thank you. I have my moments :-)
And, we say round these parts, ‘Takes one to know one!’ The Nookster (talk) 14:42, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AFC feedback

Hey there. Regarding your feedback at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/feedback#Feedback from The Nookster (20 June 2023) 2, I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

I agree that Wikipedia can feel a bit faceless sometimes. The vibe reminds me of a white collar office sometimes. One place where you can find some humanity and warmth and also get answers to questions is WP:DISCORD. Feel free to visit.

In terms of how quickly you got a review, that is usually dependent on how easy it is to determine the notability of that particular draft. If the notability is an obvious pass or an obvious fail, it tends to get a quick review. If the notability is borderline, it can sit in the queue for a very long time. The long wait times are definitely a downside of draftspace. I am happy to hear that you got a quick review.

Anyway, you seem like a smart and enthusiastic new editor, so I wanted to reach out to you with a personalized message. Keep up the good work and I hope to see you around. Sincerely, –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Awww thank you @Novem Linguaefor this. What a lovely message. The “facelessness” comment was really only a cold drop in an ocean of warm goodness so far with my Wikipedia editing experience. I can tell behind the text there are g-thousands of lovely Wikipedians full of good intentions. I honestly hope to goodness it didn’t offend anybody. It wasn’t a personal comment more of a general aesthetic.
Your white collar office vibe comment made me lol. Good description!
And I reckon, lots of the initial difficulties I found were only because I get quite nervous when doing new things. My confidence easily shatters thus affecting my ability to work out simple and obvious things. Luckily this state of mind is only temporary — a kind of reverse flash of inspiration — and sheer desperation to work things out pulls me through :-)
I will check out all the kind and helpful things above you have brought to my attention in the next few weeks. It is much appreciated. The Nookster (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS @Novem Linguae The notability criteria information you shared is very illuminating and helpful and useful. Thank you. The Nookster (talk) 22:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article Wizard Research Tool

Hello @Gråbergs Gråa Sång Hope all well with you today. How do I get to the triangle with an exclamation mark research tool when I am just picking up articles that need cleaning up IE not a new article. I can't see that icon in my toolbar on these kinds of editing jobs. Thanks. The Nookster (talk) 13:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I have no idea. Try WP:TEAHOUSE. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:03, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I will, thanks. The Nookster (talk) 14:32, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Women in Red

Hi there, The Nookster, and welcome to Women in Red. It's good to see you intend to help us reduce the gender gap. With your wide interests and your experience as a writer, you should become a useful contributor. You have already created a detailed biography and have been working on Raine Allen-Miller. I see however from here that in order to avoid copyright violations, you need to make sure you re-express in your own words any information you find on internet sites. If you have not already done so, I think you will find it useful to look through some of our essays, perhaps starting with our Ten Simple Rules. Please let me know if you run into any difficulties or need assistance. Happy editing!--Ipigott (talk) 10:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Ipigott thanks for all these messages. It is much appreciated seeing as I am scrabbling to get up to speed on this platform. I will read up on what you have sent and action your messages in due course. Unfortunately I have quite a lot of limitations and constraints in my Real Life so being able to contribute as much as I would like is not an option currently.
Quick question: I haven't finished on Raine Allen-Miller yet. I did add the relevant citations to the blockquote that looks like has been highlighted as plagiarism. Am I not meant to use block quotes this way? I still haven't looked at the career section yet either. I am hoping to finish editing this article this week. Due to no fault of Wikipedia, I actually find it quite difficult to edit on articles that are already published, because the research tool triangle doesn't show in my toolbar. I'll get over it and find a workaround I'm sure :-) The Nookster (talk) 11:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the difficulty you encountered with the tildes. They are in fact shown in the Wiki markup which should appear at the bottom of the page when you are editing. For convenience, I've now also included them in the introduction to New registrations for copy and paste. Hope this will help.--Ipigott (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thanks. I was actually referring to my ancient mac keyboard. I couldn't find the tildes on it! My poor old keyboard. It's so old and behind the times. I can't bear to upgrade it though. All the brilliant words I have written on it. Sentimental? Moi? The Nookster (talk) 12:01, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In connection with Raine Allen-Miller, I couldn't see there was a citation for the first quote under Early life. You can certainly use verbatim quotes but they need to be fully referenced. I'll look more carefully through the article when I have time. I sympathize with your difficulties coping with editing. I'm sure you'll soon come to grips with the essentials. Now you are a member of Women in Red, you can always call for assistance on our talk page or just let me know if you think I can help you along.--Ipigott (talk) 12:14, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks 😊 The Nookster (talk) 14:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're right I hadn't cited the Early Life quote. I will amend that :-) The Nookster (talk) 15:14, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good practice to keep big quotes / block quotes to a minimum. I talk about it a bit in my essay User:Novem Linguae/Essays/Problems with quotes. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:27, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Helpful essay. Key points noted. I think because I’m interested in biographies quotes seem more relevant somehow. I’ll practise simple summarisations more :-) Being refreshingly concise is a writer’s goal I am forever working on. The Nookster (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've looked a bit more closely at Raine Allen-Miller. Rather than using sources directly associated with the subject, you should base biographies of living people on independent secondary sources such reliable newspapers, journals and published books. These can include critical assessments and reports in connection with awards and achievements. You will find further guidance at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. It is important that each piece of information should be covered by a citation and that there should be at least one citation for each paragraph. You can of course use the same citation more than once. If you need any help with this, please let me know.--Ipigott (talk) 06:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks @Ipigott This is useful. Good to read. I’ve only just started looking at the balance of sources. Most were on the original piece when I picked it up to improve. Late last night I found a good one from Elle magazine. Hopefully a bit more digging around will show up some more reliable third-party sources. Thanks for your editorial guidance :-) Other editors are also appearing seemingly out of nowhere in my Wikipedia World to help with the technical side of this platform too. The Nookster (talk) 06:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s great to know you are all there in the background! At first it was so daunting opening falling down the infinite Wikipedia rabbit-holes. But here we are! A few weeks later and I am certainly feeling much better about being utterly lost deep in the bowls of the The Internet. The Nookster (talk) 07:01, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity

I stumbled on this Copyright help regarding File:FT-LT Wyndham Payne.png, and I wondered what you wanted to use it for? As a source in/for an article? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Gråbergs Gråa Sång long may the sun shine for you :-) The Nookster (talk) 22:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Albert Wyndham Payne

Hallo Nikki and welcome to Wikipedia and WiR. It can be an addictive hobby!

I've had a look at your splendid Albert Wyndham Payne. I've WP:BOLDly moved it to Wyndham Payne, as that seems to be the name by which he's usually referred to. Moving it makes a redirect automatically from the former title. I'm a bit of a specialist in redirects, especially from other forms of people's names, so I was about to make one from Albert Payne, in case anyone had his full name and searched for the standard first+last name: there are already two APs, so I expanded the "hatnote" there. I also added him to Payne (surname).

One thing I noticed is that you haven't yet found the trick of naming a reference and then re-using it, rather than typing it afresh every time. The "Imaginative Book Illustration Society" example is the one I looked at - but then I wondered, from the way you've used it, you've presumably got the actual article text by Connelly in front of you, either on paper or by having access to it online. In which case the reference would probably be better as something like {{Cite journal | first=William | last=Connelly | title=Bibliography: Wyndham Payne compiled by William Connelly with comprehensive biographical essay and coloured insert. | journal=Studies in Illustration | volume=31/32 | date=Winter 2005 / Spring 2006 | publisher=Imaginative Book Illustration Society| url=https://bookillustration.org/publications/studies/index31to40.html}}, which comes out as:

Connelly, William (Winter 2005 / Spring 2006). "Bibliography: Wyndham Payne ... with comprehensive biographical essay and coloured insert". Studies in Illustration. 31/32. Imaginative Book Illustration Society. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) (or however the title of the article actually appears in the journal)

Hmm, the template sometimes throws up error messages for complicated dates, but it should be OK. Then you can name that reference, by using <ref name=connelly> instead of <ref>, when you first use it, and any time thereafter you can use it by just putting <ref name=connelly />. I've done it with the Lanes ref, to show how it works.

There's a lot to learn about editing Wikipedia but it's an interesting journey! I hope you continue to enjoy editing here. Someone pointed out that we seem to be in the same county, though I'm in the extreme top left corner - half a mmile north I'm in Cumbria, half a mile west I'm in Morecambe Bay. I chip in to the WiR editathons, enjoying the challenge of finding at least one contribution to each one and delighting when I can find an intersection between them, but I also edit on all sorts of other topics, sometimes something I hear on Radio 4 and think "Is that in Wikipedia? It should be".

Happy Editing! PamD 20:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One more little thing I noticed: "currently" is worth avoiding. I've tweaked the article. You can future-proof the article by saying "As of June 2023" and there's also a template, {{as of}} for doing so - with a useful parameter "lc=yes" to put it into lower case for use mid-sentence, "as of" rather than "As of". The virtue of the template is that the article then gets listed in some category of "potentially dated content" which someone, in future, could follow up on if so inclined (there are all sorts of "Wikignomes" who delight in all sorts of obscure bits of useful work!) But in general "this year", "current", "recently" are not good words to use. (There's also the interesting thought that "summer" and "winter" can be unhelpful in describing a time of year if the thing is being read by an Australian... always something new!)
The article is great, I'm not meaning to nitpick but to offer helpful suggestions for making it and future articles even better. I don't write much in the way of substantial articles myself, mostly solid little stubs with good enough sources for unarguable "notability", with all the infrastructure of categories, incoming redirects, surname page entries, etc. We each find our niche. PamD 21:01, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @PamD Thanks for all your messages. They are a-maze-ZING! Thanks for all the tech tips. I need them. I am quite slooooow at getting things done for multiple reasons. But I will get around to absorbing and actioning all your help. It’s great we are in the same county. That makes me feel much less lonely and lost on here. I love the Be Bold mantra. I am a bold blunderer! Much blundering to be done ahead :-) I will get back to your messages as I am working through them in the next few weeks. Once again thank you, Nikki 🤓 The Nookster (talk) 09:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @PamD yes I am loving being a Wikipedian. A really exciting rollercoaster so far :) It’s great learning all the new little editing content and tech tricks. Thanks for explaining the multiple reference trick. All done with a little tweaking of the date. And I decided to avoid all temporal descriptions such as currently, recently etc to future-proof articles as you suggest. I couldn’t quite work out the As of {{{1}}} template. Next time!
It’s good to know what your niche is. Thanks for helping Wyndham be more easily found and bumping the article up to a C on the grading scale. There’s a lot more to him but I can’t find the reliable sources for anything more on him yet.
My brain seems to like generally synthesising multiple masses of information and data, specifically the hunt for ‘facts’, then somehow making a nice simple readable story out of them. I liked your description of W being like an infinite jigsaw puzzle. Was sorry and a little bit shocked to read your page gets vandalised. Who? What? Why? Is it like when I get trolled for being a woman who writes about hot topics like climate change? Thank you once again for your help. The Nookster (talk) 16:11, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Finding sources

Hi The Nookster. I'm sorry I wasn't able to give better help at the Teahouse on Sunday. I think I've now got to the bottom of the issue. The visual editor does indeed only offer the icon when used in the draft namespace. However, the sources it offers are basically the same as those offered by the template {{Find sources}} which occurs on a very large number of article Talk Pages. So the work-around if you are editing an article in mainspace is first to place that template on its Talk Page (at the top), "publishing" the addition and it will be there for future use. Incidentally, one recent addition to the visual editor that works when editing any page is that by typing the backslash \ on your keyboard, a large drop-down list of additional options will appear. I hope this helps! Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes @Michael D. Turnbull it does. Enormously. Thank you. The Nookster (talk) 12:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Women in Red 8th Anniversary

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Thanks @Victuallers I hope to be able to contribute to this sooner rather than later. Fingers crossed. Just got rather a lot on my plate currently :-) I haven’t forgotten about the WIR though! The Nookster (talk) 12:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Concern regarding Draft:Nancy Barnhart

Information icon Hello, The Nookster. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Nancy Barnhart, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 11:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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  • refrain from gaming the system.

Additionally, you must be logged-in, have 500 edits and an account age of 30 days, and are not allowed to make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on a page within this topic.

Editors are advised to err on the side of caution if unsure whether making a particular edit is consistent with these expectations. If you have any questions about contentious topics procedures you may ask them at the arbitration clerks' noticeboard or you may learn more about this contentious topic here. You may also choose to note which contentious topics you know about by using the {{Ctopics/aware}} template.

Doug Weller talk 18:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. That’s why I thought it best to leave a message on the talk page rather than go in and edit such a sensitive article myself. Even on something as minor as a typo. Perhaps I erred too much on the side of caution? The Nookster (talk) 18:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No you weren't too cautious, just make an edit request. I give alerts like this routinely and have a statement on my talk page about them. It's probably not up to date but as I was an ArbCom member and hold advanced permissions (check user and oversighter) I don't have much excuse to not be aware of them. :) Doug Weller talk 18:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi thanks for this info. I didn’t really understand a lot of the jargon terms you used but can gather you are really an experience Wikipedia editor. So thanks for sharing your wisdom.
For future reference how do I request edits?
Thanks Nikki 82.132.187.234 (talk) 09:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi thanks for this info Doug, I didn’t really understand a lot of the jargon terms you used but can gather you are really an experience Wikipedia editor. So thanks for sharing your wisdom.
For future reference how do I request edits? The Nookster (talk) 07:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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