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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DLMcN (talk | contribs) at 20:36, 8 July 2024 (→Portuguese: Timor). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Why not add German as a world language?

German is described as a “major language of the world” in its own article. So why not add it here as well? XXE XDXx (talk) 10:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The short answer is that sources on the subject of world languages typically do not consider it one (thought there are some exceptions). What level of sourcing to require was discussed back in 2021 (see Talk:World language/Archive 3#A summary of the sources located so far, and a suggestion), and it was decided that we would be fairly strict. It may be useful to look at the table of sources compiled at the time, which I'll copy here for convenience. TompaDompa (talk) 10:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Potential world languages
Arabic Chinese Dutch English French German Hindi/Hindustani Japanese Latin Malay/Indonesian Portuguese Russian Spanish Swahili
Ammon (2010)[1] Discussed Leaning no Not discussed Yes (predominant) Leaning yes Discussed Leaning no Discussed Not discussed Discussed Discussed Discussed Yes Not discussed
Benrabah (2014)[2] Yes Yes Not mentioned Yes (unique position) Yes Yes Yes Yes Not mentioned Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
de Mejía (2002)[3] Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Yes Yes Yes Not mentioned
García (2014)[4] Not mentioned Not mentioned Intermediate Yes Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Intermediate Not mentioned Yes Not mentioned
Lu (2008)[5] Not mentioned No Not mentioned Yes Yes Not mentioned Not mentioned Not discussed Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Yes Not mentioned
Mar-Molinero (2004)[6] Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Not discussed Discussed Not discussed
Mazrui (1976)[7] Regional Regional/National Not mentioned Yes Yes Regional National Not mentioned Not mentioned Regional/National Not mentioned Regional Yes Regional
Mufwene (2010)[8] Yes (second-tier) No (major language) Not mentioned Yes (foremost) Yes Not mentioned No (major language) Not mentioned Formerly Not mentioned Not mentioned Yes Yes (second-tier) Not mentioned
Pei (1968)[9] Discussed No Not mentioned Discussed Discussed Discussed No Discussed Not mentioned Discussed Discussed No Discussed Not mentioned
Wright (2012)[10] Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Yes Yes Not mentioned Not mentioned Not mentioned Formerly Not mentioned Yes Not mentioned Yes Not mentioned
References

References

  1. ^ Ammon, Ulrich (2010-10-07), Coupland, Nikolas (ed.), "World Languages: Trends and Futures", The Handbook of Language and Globalization, Oxford, UK: Wiley-Blackwell, pp. 101–122, doi:10.1002/9781444324068.ch4, ISBN 978-1-4443-2406-8, The focus on non-native speakers corresponds to our intuition that French or English are international or world languages rather than Hindi; or rather than Hindi and Urdu, combined as a single language – or even rather than Chinese, in spite of the latter languages' higher numbers of native speakers
  2. ^ Benrabah, Mohamed (2014-01-02). "Competition between four "world" languages in Algeria". Journal of World Languages. 1 (1): 38–59. doi:10.1080/21698252.2014.893676. ISSN 2169-8252.
  3. ^ de Mejía, Anne-Marie (2002). Power, Prestige, and Bilingualism: International Perspectives on Elite Bilingual Education. Multilingual Matters. pp. 47–49. ISBN 978-1-85359-590-5. The terms 'international language' or 'world language' [...] have been defined as 'high prestige', majority language(s) used as a means of communication between different countries speaking different languages (Baker & Prys Jones, 1998: 702). These notions are often explained in terms of the rapid rise in globalisation and internationalisation during the twentieth century which has meant that certain languages have become languages of international communication at world level in such fields as science, technology, and international diplomacy (Baker & Prys Jones, 1998). The following languages of wider communication, that may be used as first or as second or foreign languages, are generally recognised: English, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Arabic, Russian and Chinese.
  4. ^ García, Adolfo M. (2014-01-02). "Neurocognitive determinants of performance variability among world-language users". Journal of World Languages. 1 (1): 60–77. doi:10.1080/21698252.2014.893671. ISSN 2169-8252.
  5. ^ Lu, Dan (2008-07-31). "Pre-imperial Chinese: Its hurdles towards becoming a world language". Journal of Asian Pacific Communication. 18 (2): 268–279. doi:10.1075/japc.18.2.13lu. ISSN 0957-6851. Judging by this criterion, one will have no hesitance to decide that English is worth the label of world language. Accordingly French and Spanish can be regarded as world language, too, because there are some speech communities of the two languages scattered in some parts of the globe.
  6. ^ Mar-Molinero, Clare (2004). "Spanish as a world language: Language and identity in a global era". Spanish in Context. 1 (1): 8. doi:10.1075/sic.1.1.03mar. ISSN 1571-0718.
  7. ^ Mazrui, Ali AlʾAmin; World Order Models Project (1976). A world federation of cultures : an African perspective. Internet Archive. New York : The Free Press. pp. 332–333.
  8. ^ Mufwene, Salikoko S. (2010-10-07), Coupland, Nikolas (ed.), "Globalization, Global English, and World English(es): Myths and Facts", The Handbook of Language and Globalization, Oxford, UK: Wiley-Blackwell, pp. 42–43, doi:10.1002/9781444324068.ch1, ISBN 978-1-4443-2406-8
  9. ^ Pei, Mario (1968). One Language for the World. Biblo & Tannen Publishers. pp. 12–16. ISBN 978-0-8196-0218-3.
  10. ^ Wright, Roger (2012), Hernández-Campoy, Juan Manuel; Conde-Silvestre, Juan Camilo (eds.), "Convergence and Divergence in World Languages", The Handbook of Language and Globalization, John Wiley & Sons, p. 552, doi:10.1002/9781118257227.ch30, ISBN 978-1-4051-9068-8, There is no generally agreed precise definition of what counts as a 'World' Language. For the purposes of this chapter, they can be defined as languages spoken over a wide geographical area, often as a result of previous colonization, and in many cases by native speakers of some other language. The category now includes Spanish, Portuguese, French, and English, but with reference to historically earlier periods the label has been applied to Latin [...]
German is not usually considered to be a world language because:
  • It has not that many (total) speakers compared to other languages which are typically considered world languages.
  • It is mainly spoken in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, meaning that the language is not very widespread aside from Central Europe.
    • These are all very developed countries, meaning that almost all German speakers also speak English to a sufficient degree, making it quite unnecessary to learn German as a lingua franca.—-Maxeto0910 (talk) 12:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The main reason why I became interested in this Wiki-article, was to try and learn how useful - around the world - were the various languages which I had studied - namely, French, German, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese and Arabic]. Certainly, the picture is somewhat different now than it was in the 1960s, when I first looked at that question. At that time, German was very much a lingua franca in central and eastern Europe (and indeed Turkey) - and, to an extent, still continues to serve as one even now, despite having conceded ground to English.... But Maxeto is correct: it is no longer a lingua franca once you leave Europe.
I do of course realise that "my own personal impressions" do not qualify as a reliable source in the Wikipedia context ! --DLMcN (talk) 12:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps worth mentioning languages which do not quite 'make the cut'?

How about including this sentence at the very end of the article? >

Some scholars (but only a minority) would also include Portuguese, Chinese, and/or German in their list of world languages.

.... and then adding Benrabah [and perhaps Wright and de Mejia] as sources?

[We did discuss this possibility in May 2021]. 

--DLMcN (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever we do, we have to be consistent about it. For instance, if Benrabah is sufficient sourcing to add Portuguese, then the same must apply to adding Japanese and Swahili. The easiest ways to be consistent are to be as inclusive or as restrictive as possible. The article is currently closer to being maximally restrictive. I think it would be very difficult to be any more inclusive while staying consistent without going all the way to maximum inclusivity. This specific suggestion would create a two-tier system, which was discussed at some length back in February and March of 2021 (see Talk:World language/Archive 3#Two categories?) and which I don't think is a particularly good idea. I laid out my thoughts on the sources and how to apply them, as well as some reasons why this is somewhat complicated, back in May 2021 at Talk:World language/Archive 3#A summary of the sources located so far, and a suggestion. I don't think we have sufficient sourcing to say that only a minority of scholars would include certain languages. TompaDompa (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Portuguese

@Likemav647: Whether something is listed on this article as a world language or not is determined by what sources on the overarching topic of world languages say about it—in other words, whether the balance of the sources is that the language is considered a world language or not. Whether you, I, or any other editor think it counts as a world language is immaterial—making that determination ourselves, no matter what evidence we have to back it up, is WP:Original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. We have to be able to say that according to source such-and-such, the language is considered a world language. As you'll note, that is the case for the other listed languages besides Portuguese. TompaDompa (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://sistema.funarte.gov.br/tainacan/periodicos/mundializacao-globalizacao-e-a-unidade-imaginaria-da-lingua-portuguesaglobalization-and-the-imaginary-unit-of-portuguese-language/
https://www.dynamiclanguage.com/the-global-footprint-of-portuguese-understanding-its-influence-and-reach/#:~:text=The%20Role%20of%20Portuguese%20in,various%20international%20forums%20and%20organizations.
It's ok Are these valid reasons and serious sources for you Likemav647 (talk) 00:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They do not say that Portuguese is a world language. Please see Wikipedia's policy WP:No original research, which says Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves. In this context, the conclusion which is not clearly stated by the sources themselves is that Portuguese is a world language. That is to say, you are engaging in original research, which is not allowed. TompaDompa (talk) 00:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Textbook: Ponto de Encontro: Portuguese as a World Language (2nd Edition) published by Pearson Education
ISBN-13: 978-0205782765 Likemav647 (talk) 01:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a textbook for learning and teaching Portuguese that uses the collocation "world language" in the sense of second language. If you look at the sources used for the other languages listed here, you'll find that they are sources about the linguistic concept of world languages that discuss certain languages' status as a world language or not. Do you see the difference? TompaDompa (talk) 01:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hum... https://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/content_language/ms/y
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=xjaXi6VGwfUC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PT12&dq=supercentral+&source=gb_mobile_entity&ovdme=1&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Portuguese&f=false (search portuguese)
"On the other hand, sea-bound languages spread by conquests overseas: English, French, Portuguese, Spanish. Consequently, these languages became widespread in areas settled by European colonisers and relegated the indigenous people and their languages to peripheral positions."
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ao2XIClUKd8C&q=de+swaan&pg=PA1
1-1.5 https://books.google.com.sg/books?hl=en&lr=&id=xjaXi6VGwfUC&oi=fnd&pg=PT7&dq=info:odu6uXJKmn4J:scholar.google.com/&ots=TUNwTX029V&sig=cA2D7hngqXxgdhbQzTUKrIYo_2A#v=onepage&q&f=true
Have I finally understood?..... Likemav647 (talk) 01:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/Langues/2vital_lnginter_acc.htm Likemav647 (talk) 02:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am inclined to agree that Portuguese does not quite have sufficient support to qualify. In the past, yes - one could probably argue that it used to be a world language, [but we could also say that about a few others].
It is misleading to state that Portuguese is "now the main language of the southern hemisphere" [ahead of English], because that is true only regarding the number of native speakers.
However, as suggested in the last thread I do still believe that some sort of "compromise" category should somehow be added [with appropriate wording, perhaps even without citing any sources] - also mentioning Mandarin and German. --DLMcN (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DLMcN: I stand by what I said back in January, namely that whatever we decide to do needs to be both internally consistent and based on the sources.
@Likemav647: No, but I think you might be getting there. Do you understand why the paragraph that says Portuguese thanks to Portugal's colonial conquests, Portuguese was the first language to be spoken on all five continents and is now the main language of the southern hemisphere. The main countries are Portugal, Brazil, Angola and Mozambique. is irrelevant to this article? I see that you added a mention of Portuguese being a supercentral language in Abram de Swaan's global language system. In looking that up, you may have noticed that there are several additional such languages that are not listed here (e.g. Japanese and Swahili)—did you think about why that might be (I note that you did not take the additional step of adding those languages as well)? The explanation is that while there is one scholar that equates being a supercentral language with being a world language—Mohamed Benrabah—that position is (going by the overall literature on the topic) an outlier in the field, and WP:Consensus has been not to add languages if that is the only source that designates them as world languages. See earlier discussion at e.g. Talk:World language/Archive 3#A summary of the sources located so far, and a suggestion. TompaDompa (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in Abram de Swaan's global language system.[citation needed]
Citation: Introduction: the global language system 11 p.25
Library of Congress
401—dc21
2001036802
Typeset in 10 ½ on 12 pt Sabon
by Kolam Information Services Pvt. Ltd., Pondicherry, India
Printed in Great Britain by TJ International, Padstow, Cornwall
Italic Likemav647 (talk) 12:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Today, three or four
decades after independence, the former colonial languages, English,
French and Portuguese, still function throughout Africa; the linguistic
map does not look very different from the political map of, say, 1920.
Likemav647 (talk) 12:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bold Likemav647 (talk) 12:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was rather a non sequitur that did not really address what I said. I'm removing Portuguese from the article for now, as WP:Consensus is opposed to its inclusion. While WP:Consensus can change, the WP:ONUS to establish a new consensus is on you as you are the one seeking to include disputed content. TompaDompa (talk) 20:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
J'ai inclus toutes les citations que ce foutu livre contient quant à l'influence de la langue portugaise à l'international, et tu te permets de forme arbitraire, de supprimer mon actualisation. Tu es vraiment de mauvaise foi. Il est dit que le portugais est la langue maternelle utilisée, et ce, largement, dans l'hémisphère sud. Si ce n'est pas une conséquence de son internationalisation, parlée dans les 5 continents, c'est quoi ? Qu'est-ce que fout le latin, c'est une langue morte. T'es claqué comme type, t'es fatigué. Likemav647 (talk) 21:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ENGLISHPLEASE. Here's the thing: you are arguing that Portuguese should be considered a world language, by pointing to evidence about the language that you think makes it a world language. Even if you were to persuade me such that I come to view Portuguese as a world language, that would not mean we could include it as a world language in this article. My view on the matter, or indeed any editor's, does not make any difference. What you need to do is demonstrate is that Portuguese is considered a world language by authoritative sources on the topic. This is the essence of Wikipedia's WP:Core content policy WP:No original research: the conclusion (Portuguese is a world language) needs to come from WP:Reliable sources, it is not enough for the underlying factual basis for the arguments (it is used by this number of people across these geographical territories, and so on) to come from such sources (as the policy says, original research includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources). TompaDompa (talk) 21:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
L'espagnol est parlé en Afrique par une importante communauté ? L'espagnol n'est pas parlé en Asie comme il n'est que parlé secondairement en Afrique dans un seul pays, la Guinée équatorial. Qui par ailleurs, parle également le français et le portugais. L'espagnol est seulement parlé en Amérique latine, il n'est aucunement pluri-continental. Il fait quoi dans la liste ? Le portugais est parlé en Amérique latine, en Afrique et légèrement en Asie (c'est mieux que rien, cf l'espagnol). Ça n'a aucun sens ce que tu me dis, ce que tu défends est faux... Likemav647 (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, please use English in talk page discussions per our WP:Talk page guidelines. And again, it doesn't matter whether you or I or any other editor think Portuguese, or any other language, is a world language—what matters is what the sources think. As such, it is not meaningful to argue with me that it should be considered one—what would be meaningful is demonstrating that this is a mainstream viewpoint among WP:Reliable sources on the topic. TompaDompa (talk) 23:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are distortions between Spanish and indigenous languages. If these countries are not even completely in harmony according to the official language used, it is normal that a very small population is certainly not necessarily spoken English
With the exception of Brazil, Hispanic countries are divided into official, used and second languages. Portuguese is spoken natively by virtually all of Brazil.
This is not the case in Paraguay, for example. English has a privileged status as a second language, thanks to its global teaching!
This is the case in India, where nobody speaks English natively... Mother tongue is a significant factor in determining a country's literacy rate. Without the status of second language, English is well behind Spanish, which has almost half a million Spanish speakers (the language used, of course). There's a gap between the official language and with first language Likemav647 (talk) 11:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LikeMav - First, it is important to always be polite in Wiki-discussions, and to avoid all personal criticism. [Or maybe my French is not good enough, and I have misinterpreted some of your words? - if so, I apologise].
Anyway, it may help to 'calm you down' if we take a close look and carefully consider some of the points you make, even if this does make me guilty of "Original Research" and even "Synthesis". But references can easily be found to confirm what I say. [In any event, as Tompa Dompa emphasises, a designated World Language does need to be supported by quoting specific, independent sources].
You wrote: "L'espagnol est seulement parlé en Amérique latine, il n'est aucunement pluri-continental".... OK, apart from Hispano-America and Spain - yes, there is very little else in the world where Spanish can claim any sort of presence: [e.g., a few 'bits' in Africa?]... It is, however, important In Europe because it is a very popular choice for retirees coming from countries further north, and for holiday-makers.
Portuguese is of course confined to a small corner of south-west Europe [although those^ facts about Spain are admittedly partly true of Portugal too].
In addition, Portuguese does indeed dominate one [large] country in South America, and it can boast a significant [although not really large] presence in Africa.... but apart from these^ three examples there is not much to mention ... > [Alright, it is one of the official languages of East Timor [an extremely small country in Asia/Australasia], but the role of Portuguese in Macau and western India is rapidly fading away].--DLMcN (talk) 12:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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