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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 85.229.111.139 (talk) at 14:18, 6 September 2024 (→Update Article Name: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested move 1 September 2024

August 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion → Ukrainian invasion of Russia – Option B from section #Attempting to gain consensus seems to be a viable arternative --Altenmann >talk 21:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Just looking at the above section I don't think directly proposing we move it to anything with "invasion" in the title is the best choice, as it would likely result in a "no consensus" as we seem to be split halfway between whether or not "invasion" is a good title; I don't think we need any additional RM right now, as this seems like extra bureaucratic work for little change; we should remove the "August" from the title without having to wait seven days, so for now either moving the page to "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion" or "2024 Kursk offensive" seems the best choice, as sources don't seem to give any preference to incursion, offensive, or invasion. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the month removal, since it is now September and the incursion is still pretty much alive and well. Procyon117 (talk) 04:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Agree with the proposed removal of the month, but "invasion" suggests Ukraine intends permanent occupation of the territory concerned, when it seems that the incursion aims to convince Russia to pull back from Ukrainian frontlines. Culloty82 (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it gets large scale, then fine, otherwise, rename to 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion or something. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Invasion of russia" is an extreme overaggeration of what's going on. It's literally only a portion of kursk oblast that has been attacked. This is like calling the Kargil War the "Pakistani invasion of India". I would prefer something like "Ukrainian Invasion of Kursk" or "Kursk Offensive (2024)" Hind242 (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This name is clear, descriptive and distinctive which allows the ‘August’ to be dropped from the title. The term ‘invasion’ or ‘invaded’ is used by numerous media outlets to describe this event:
Therefore I believe this name fits WP:COMMONNAME. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 08:31, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While some of those sources do call it an invasion of Russia, most are more specific and call it an invasion of Russia's Kursk region. – Asarlaí (talk) 12:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I suggested this in the previous move discussion. This is the largest and longest invasion of Russia since Operation Barbarossa and should be recognized as such. While "incursion" and "offensive" are accurate descriptions, they don't encompass the seriousness of the situation. "Incursion" implies a brief entry into foreign territory akin to a raid, which is listed as a synonym at Merriam Webster. However, this has been going on for nearly a month now, so it's losing relevance as a descriptor. "Offensive (military)", as noted in the Wiki article, is a term that is used alongside invasion. However, I prefer invasion because it's less vague. Imagine if Wikipedia's article was titled "Russian offensive in Ukraine". How would that be different from the current Russian invasion of Ukraine article? To me, such an article would imply that there was a greater conflict that this is just one front in a larger war. But invasion invokes something similar, such as the invasion of Normandy that took place within a war (whose article name on Wikipedia is the name of the operation: Operation Overlord). For that reason, I support this current name change of "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" because of its prolific use in reliable sources. As a side note, "Kursk offensive" currently redirects to Battle of Kursk, and for that reason, I'd recommend against redirecting it to this article or renaming this article to Kursk offensive, as the Battle of Kursk is far more notable. "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" has the benefit of clearly disambiguating from that.--JasonMacker (talk) 17:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for same reason as before. Title is clear, concise, and used in reliable sources. When I was looking for the article I myself typed in 'Ukrainian invasion of Russia' to find it and I imagine that will be a much more common query and name for this subject. Furthermore nothing about the term 'invasion' necessitates permanent territorial occupation or a negative moral valence, e.g. Western Allied invasion of Germany during World War 2. TocMan (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Invasion of Russia" overstates the size of this operation. It's not an invasion of Russia in general - the world's biggest country. It's an invasion, incursion or offensive into one small region. Most of the sources refer to Kursk, so I vote for Ukrainian invasion of Kursk or Ukrainian offensive in Kursk. – Asarlaí (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I used to be in the "offensive" camp but I've come around to invasion. A great many RS call it an invasion and the fact that it is now essentially an indefinitely permanent action (until land exchange or expulsion) lends weight to this being more serious than offensive (incursion is no longer valid at all imho). Furthermore Ukrainian Invasion of Russia is a good title, clear and concise, maybe 2024 Ukrainian Invasion of Russia. Finally, as far as "invasion" being biased against ukraine within the scope of the overall wars actions, even pro-ukrane RS like Kyiv Post are calling it Invasion, and prominently. Here's their lead for today https://www.kyivpost.com/analysis/38457 EDIT I perhaps misunderstood the main thrust of this debate - I support Ukranian Invasion of Kursk - the main point for me is transforming incursion to invasion, be in Ukranian Invasion of Kursk or Ukranian Invasion of Russia or even 2024 Ukranian Invasion of Kursk, just as long as incursion is gone - incursion this is not!
  • Oppose; this is not a "full-scale invasion of Russia", which despite what some editors say, is what such a title implies to the average reader, that Ukraine is indeed launching a massive operation with a size comparable to that of the previous invasion; and yes, that was the previous invasion, ("in World War II") but that is irrelevant when the current Ukrainian offensive cannot be equally called an "invasion", implying based on usage in related articles a similar size or impact; sources which do use the "invasion" wording often qualify it with "of Kursk Oblast", which we should either do here or use "2024 Kursk offensive". A non-invasion title is no less "clear and concise" and is equally used by reliable sources, and calling this, without qualifying as to what part of Russia, a "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" is trying to make this something it's not. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 03:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This doesn't seem like an accurate title, though removing the month makes sense. 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion is better, as it's more accurate and simply chops off one word, but even Ukrainian incursion of Kursk Oblast works (and you could potentially swap incursion for invasion or offensive, if there's consensus to do that). Essentially, I think we need to be clear and unambiguous about the extent of the incursion/invasion/offensive, and it's certainly not an invasion of the entirety of Russia. Lewisguile (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, clear title and the WP:COMMONNAME used by RS. Most of the opposition to the proposed title comes from claims that "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" implies it being a larger-scale operation than it is, but I don't see how that is the case: it is completely normal for invasions to only cover a small amount of the invaded country. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 23:55, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading statement?

"Although President Putin repeatedly promised that young conscripts would not be deployed in the war with Ukraine, conscripts from several Russian regions were sent to fight with Ukrainian troops in Kursk Oblast.[258] Many conscripts fell into Ukrainian captivity.[259]" is kind of misleading since Russian law did prohibit conscript from be deployed abroad (in this case in Ukraine) which Putin promise conscript he would not. However Ukraine invaded Kursk a Russian sovereign territory and internationally recognized as such, conscript would be obviously deployed inside Russia. Other statement such "civillian complained about Russian gov abandoned them" is also kind of ridiculous since Ukraine invaded Russian territory and already evacuated civillian for their safety Dauzlee (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This source shows that the civillians are talking about the situation while the Russians were in control. They complain that the Russian authorities didn't help them evacuate (except that they evacuated the elderly and frail) and that they turned off water and light. That is something the Russians can only do where they control the area. This source reports that Russian conscripts are fighting in Russian-occupied Ukraine. So I don't think either statement is misleading. Sjö (talk) 07:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue it is, as this statement is about Kusk (which is in Russia). Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a valid argument for the text about conscripts. We could either remove it or rephrase it to something mentioning that conscripts in Kursk thought they would be safe since they would not be deployed in occupied Ukraine. We would need a source to support that, though. Sjö (talk) 06:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be better yes. Slatersteven (talk) 09:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the first one it should be cautiously treated as a claim, since it was from a Ukrainian soldier especially when he said "They did not declare evacuation and immediately turned off water and light, so they created unbearable living conditions" which is doubtful and propagandistic in tone, CBC itself said they currently hasn't verify such video the Ukrainian soldier have provided. It should be changed into "a Ukrainian soldier claimed that some Russian citizen complained about Russian government abandoning them". If a Russian soldier said the same thing about Ukraine you would rightfully doubt such claims. For the second, while conscript did fought in Ukraine the statement is still misleading as this Wikipedia article is about Kursk. The statement only suitable when the battle took place in Ukraine, for example like "although Putin promise conscript not to be deployed abroad, conscript are still send to the front line in Ukraine" Dauzlee (talk) 11:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion → Kursk Offensive (2024) – Many people here have proposed moving it to "Ukrainian Invasion of Russia". However, operations have mostly only occured in Kursk oblast, and the belgorad ones were temporary raids and can be ignored and lumped in with the many other raids that have routinely occured in this war. "Invasion of Russia" overestimates the scale of the attack. It would be like calling the Kargil War a "Pakistani invasion of India". The current "incursion" however UNDERESTIMATES the scale of the attack. Ukraine is occupying land for extended periods of time. This is an invasion of kursk oblast. Many sources have used the term "offensive". I would also be open to calling it the "Ukrainian Invasion of Kursk" but currently most sources use "offensive" or "incursion". I think offensive makes more sense. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2024/08/ukraines-kursk-offensive-big-stakes-big-risks-for-both-sides/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/25/ukraine-kursk-offensive-russia-videos/ https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp8nykdnlkpo.amp https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-updates-nato-chief-backs-kursk-offensive/live-70098983 Hind242 (talk) 11:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Update Article Name

It's been almost a week into September but the article is still called "August". Somebody please fix 85.229.111.139 (talk) 14:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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