Talk:Holodomor
This article is frightfully tendentious. Saying that the situation "was deliberately provoked by the government" absolves the Ukrainian kulaks, many of them Nazi sympathisers, of responsibility. In fact, it was they who provoked the government with their active and destructive resistance to the movement for collectivisation of agriculture. The claims of millions of dead people are Cold War propaganda of Nazi origin, grossly distorted and broadly absurd. Shorne 22:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
How come the kulaks could have been Nazi sympathisers in 1930??! Nazi movement got in power in 1933. Your post is pure nonsense. Cautious 22:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- So the Nazis didn't even exist until the day they came to power? Shorne 00:31, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- They existed in Germany. Cautious 14:29, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Ukrainian Nazis were Hitler's fifth column in the USSR. The Red Army had to fight them until the 50's.
Partially edited
I have revised part of the article for NPOV. Much work remains to be done before this article can be acceptable.
I wish to see citations of the Stalinist officials purported to have said that millions died. As far as I know, Stalin's government admitted no such thing. I shall be forced to delete the quotations if they are not attributed. Shorne 16:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Someone reverted an entire batch of changes, evidently without even looking at them, on the grounds that they were made by a "holocaust denier". This is nonsense. The page is hopelessly POV and inaccurate. Shorne 22:51, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you that the version User:Xed is reverting to is written from a strong POV, and the last paragraph of it definitely needs to be cited. Try to work a little more balance into your own version, though, and understand that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints that isn't always easy to overcome. For example, do you dispute that there was a famine at all (your version says "famine said to have occurred"), or just that it was as severe as often reported and that it was deliberately designed for political purposes? Everyking 12:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I think Everyking is right here. "Famine said to have occurred" is ridiculous - of course a famine occurred. On the other hand, the other version says straight out that the famine was deliberately manufactured by the government, which is not undisputed...someone who knows more about the historiography of this than me needs to have a look over of this. john k 15:12, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks to both of you for your very reasonable comments. In fact, I am not trying to deny the famine, or even to minimise it. My primary concern is that a grossly POV article that doesn't even pretend to present more than one side not be allowed to stand.
- I'm not deeply attached to "famine said to have occurred", and I agree that it may be slightly slanted towards a minority position. At a minimum, it seems like an overzealous attempt at NPOV. I will change it. "Holocaust", incidentally is similarly slanted; indeed, it is far worse. The word is heavily laden with Hitlerian associations, and its use in connexion with a famine seems to trivialise the Nazi holocaust.
- I can accept Everyking's point "that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints". All the more reason to ensure that such viewpoints are represented fairly. A low tolerance for leftist viewpoints means a tendency towards a rightist POV. Shorne 20:06, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Plagiarism
It turns out that the propaganda piece was plagiarised. Another testament to the integrity of our friendly neighbourhood propagandists. Shorne 00:33, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The title of this article is inappropriate. Firstly "Holodomor" is a Ukrainian word which means nothing to most readers. Wikipedia articles should have English titles wherever possible. In any case the famine was not confined to Ukraine, and the article should have a title which reflects its scope correctly. Really this subject should be discussed under History of the Soviet Union. If there is to be a separate article it should be called Soviet collectivization famine or something similar, and Holodomor should redirect to it. This is quite apart from the issue of the article's copyright status and the issues raised Shorne's absurd and disgraceful editing.
- I second the concern about the name. But the wider topic of the famine doesn't preclude a specific article about famine in Ukraine. By the way, "holodomor" is simply Ukrainian for "famine", and there is no compelling reason to put it as title. Mikkalai 08:06, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't see any point in a separate article about the famine in Ukraine as opposed to the famine in parts of Russia. The famine affected the peasantry as a class, Russian and Ukrainian alike, not the Ukrainians as a nation - there was plenty of food in Kiev and the Donbas. Adam 14:49, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Restoring article
I'm restoring this as an article, not so much about the famine or collectivization, but about the concept of Holodomor and surrounding debate. This is a related sub-topic of Soviet collectivization, but not a synonym for it. The intent is to explain the usage of the word, identify the controversy, and point to the relevant WP articles for more information.
Please have a look, add links, and edit for NPOV. Particularly, by eliminating weasel words if it can be done without offending people ("many maintain that...", etc.). This is a loaded topic for virtually anyone who knows anything about it. So in the short term, I intend to identify the controversy, but not explain it in detail, and definitely not enter into it. I specifically suggest that we avoid evaluating the relative merits of the arguments for either side of the debate, to avoid a huge discussion and edit war here.
You're welcome to tell me that I'm crazy to do this. —Michael Z. 2005-02-9 19:18 Z
172, I've explained why I think this deserves an article. You could at least post something here before reverting without comment. —Michael Z. 2005-02-9 21:29 Z
See User:Adam Carr's comments above. The famine affected Russian and Ukrainian peasants alike, not the Ukrainians as a nation. To treat this subject as a national terror-famine in Holodomor actually minimizes the impact, as opposed to treating it in its proper context in collectivization in the USSR. Stop undoing the redirect. 172 21:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- This doesn't treat the subject as a national terror-famine. It treats it as a point of historical debate, and points the reader to the the collectivization article for the facts behind the famine. Think of it as a topic in historiography. —Michael Z. 2005-02-9 21:56 Z
Famines
Some time ago without much thought I threw some info into Famine article, that had sections by country. Now I see it will be far better visible and usable as a separate one: Famines in Russia and USSR. Mikkalai 23:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Terms versus things
Since John Kenney and Mikkalai have both made this edit, let me spell out my objection. We are writing an encyclopedia article about a thing, not a word. It should answer the question, “What is the Holodomor?”, and not the question “What is the word ‘Holodomor’?”. The formula “Word is a term for” is redundant. That is what a word is. In this situation, the fact that we state that the Holodomor was the 1932-3 famine in Ukraine indicates that, in our judgement, ‘Holodomor’ is a term for the famine. The formula, which properly requires quotation marks or italics, would produce such openings as:
— ‘Franklin Delano Roosevelt’ was the full given name of the thirty-second president
rather than
— Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the thirty-second president
and
— ‘China’ is the English word for a country in eastern Asia
rather than
— China is a country in eastern Asia
Persons who read our encyclopedia are already expecting that we are going to tell them what the big, bold word at the top is a term for. The whole article is our explanation of what the word is a term for, and we do not need to walk them through it.
— Ford 17:51, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
- Good points. But does the article still recognize or satisfy the concerns of users who feel that: "To treat this subject as a national terror-famine in Holodomor actually minimizes the impact, as opposed to treating it in its proper context in collectivization in the USSR"? —Michael Z. 2005-02-11 18:23 Z
- Yes, the points are good. But please read the article carefully. It is a about the term, not about the event. Please keep in mind that articles about terms are perfectly legitimate in wikipedia, provided that the artcle is more than a dicdef.
- I am going to write an article about the actual famine, as a continuation of my Famines in Russia and USSR.
- Also, I find it correct to split the discussion of the event itself and of the politically loaded term (which popped up fairly recently, AFAIK (I am speaking about the usage of the word worldwide)). Mikkalai 19:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The case of Rooselevt is not exactly applicable. Here is an example from my recent wikiwork. Bro: The common colloquial word bro, short for 'brother', describes a close friend, comrade, or pal. The article is about a word and its usage, just like "holodomor". Mikkalai 19:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I did read the article carefully, Mikkalai. The first paragraph, even with your edits, was still mostly about the famine. The second and third paragraphs were mostly about the famine and just partially about the controversy of the term. It is an article about the famine. Articles about terms are valid, but this is not one of them. And what it should not be is a set-up for your promised article on the actual famine.
— Ford 20:08, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
Etymology
I always assumed the word came from "holodo-", pertaining to famine, and "mor", from the French or Latin "mort", death. Anyone know if that's correct? —Michael Z. 2005-02-11 19:51 Z
- Mor is an old East Slavic word to describe (1) massive nonviolent deaths, like in epidemy and also (2) (seemingly nonviolent) actions that cause such deaths. Of direct relevance to the "holodomor" word is the cliche "morit' golodom", i.e., make someone to die by depriving them of food, i.e., "holodomor" is actually a correctly constructed noun for this verb phrase. Mikkalai 19:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- As for the origin of the word "mor", since it concerns the very basic issue of death, I would guess, it is of common Indo-European roots, but I may be wrong. Mikkalai 20:10, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While we’re at etymology, would one of you Ukrainians verify that ‘Голодомор’ is the correct spelling, so we can add it to the article?
— Ford 20:22, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. (alhough I am not Ukrainian). And BTW, after some thinking I decided to bury my hatchet, although I still disagree with you. Mikkalai 20:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, and thank you. I read the original and find it to be strictly about the famine, not about the term at all. Perhaps I have misused the history function. But in any case, any article under this title, in my opinion, should be about the famine. That the famine is called by a name that may represent bias does not affect whether it is a real thing, or whether Holodomor is a real name for it. As proper nouns, to take two pertinent examples, ‘Holocaust’ and ‘Communism’ are far removed from their origins as common nouns.
— Ford 20:45, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
The Nazi propaganda war against the Soviet Union
"The Ukraine as a German territory
At Hitler’s side in the German leadership was Goebbels, the Minister of Propaganda, the man in charge of inculcating the Nazi dream into the German people. This was a dream of a racially pure people living in a Greater Germany, a country with broad lebensraum, a wide space in which to live. One part of this lebensraum, an area to the east of Germany which was, indeed, far larger than Germany itself, had yet to be conquered and incorporated into the German nation. In 1925, in Mein Kampf, Hitler had already pointed to the Ukraine as an essential part of this German living space. The Ukraine and other regions of Eastern Europe needed to belong to the German nation so that they could be utilised in a ‘proper’ manner. According to Nazi propaganda, the Nazi sword would liberate this territory in order to make space forthe German race. With German technology and German enterprise, the Ukraine would be transformed into an area producing cereals for Germany. But first the Germans had to liberate the Ukraine of its population of ‘inferior beings’ who, according to Nazi propaganda, would be put to work as a slave labour force in German homes, factories and fields - anywhere they were needed by the German economy.
The conquest of the Ukraine and other areas of the Soviet Union would necessitate war against the Soviet Union, and this war had to be prepared well in advance. To this end the Nazi propaganda ministry, headed by Goebbels, began a campaign around a supposed genocide committed by the Bolsheviks in the Ukraine, a dreadful period of catastrophic famine deliberately provoked by Stalin in order to force the peasantry to accept socialist policy. The purpose of the Nazi campaign was to prepare world public opinion for the ‘liberation’ of the Ukraine by German troops. Despite huge efforts and in spite of the fact that some of the German propaganda texts were published in the English press, the Nazi campaign around the supposed ‘genocide’ in the Ukraine was not very successful at the world level. It was clear that Hitler and Goebbels needed help in spreading their libellous rumours about the Soviet Union. That help they found in the USA."1
Quality of external links
This external link just got added. Balance is good, but the linked article is rather POV, or at least inaccurate and poorly written. It denies mass deaths in Soviet Ukraine, which fact is accepted today. In contrast to this, it also goes on vaguely about epidemics, although without any direct reference to collectivization or Ukraine. Someone please replace the link with a better alternative, or I'll just remove it. —Michael Z. 2005-04-17 16:12 Z