Talk:Nova music festival massacre

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Reference ideas for Nova music festival massacre

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Mackintosh, Eliza; Mezzofiore, Gianluca; Polglase, Katie; Goodwin, Allegra; Brown, Benjamin; Rebane, Teele; Oliver, Mark; Pettersson, Henrik; Manley, Byron (October 14, 2023). "How a rave celebrating life turned into a frenzied massacre". CNN. Retrieved October 14, 2023.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Stephen Harrison (October 26, 2023). "Wikipedia Is Covering the War in Israel and Gaza Better Than X". Slate. Retrieved October 31, 2023. For instance, the article about the Supernova Music Festival, where Hamas attacked and killed 260 Israeli civilians, states that the attack was conducted by Hamas "militants" rather than "terrorists," a decision that Wikipedia editors reached based on the site's guidance against contentious labels.

On 8 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Supernova music festival massacre. The result of the discussion was not moved.

On 6 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Nova music festival massacre. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Apache Helicopters and Hellfire Missiles

No mention of these being used at any time - not even as a "debunked" accusation. There's a shock.Ianbrettcooper (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice if there was something more than “The investigation didn’t comment” on it. I’d like to see some sort of overview of that controversy. 2600:6C50:427F:CAFE:4437:7C7E:D180:F6FB (talk) 22:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have notable media figures (https://x.com/ryangrim/status/1802786111724360124) commenting that Israel knew about the attack and did nothing (they actually reduced festival security). Censorship over corporate media is tight in America, but that should not be allowed to affect this site. We need a Hanibal section, because the comfortable view - there are things too evil for any human to do - is just flat wrong. Potato 888 (talk) 02:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From my understanding, wasn't the Apache Helicopter video of Israelis supposedly killing their own civilians debunked as misinformation? 66.75.251.16 (talk) 03:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because there’s no evidence.

These articles should be policed in the same way as articles subject to Holocaust-denialists are policed. KronosAlight (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the topic of the subsection § Were there any victims hit by fire from Israeli security forces?
Are there any suggestions for how we can expand and/or improve this subsection? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

To avoid WP:SANDWICH, please move picture with caption "Montage of photos of all the killed Nova festival participants" from section Re'im music festival massacre#Aftermath to section Re'im music festival massacre#Hostages taken from the music festival (also there won't be a need for picture to be on the left side). Thanks.--Steven Homan (talk) 14:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

✗ Not done: Sorry but I don't see why a picture about people that were murdered at the music venue should be moved to a section about victims that were taken live by the terrorists instead. Besides, the section "Aftermath" did mention the dead victims while the section for "Hostages taken from the music festival" did not. Ilovefood123123 (talk) 09:19, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point about the WP:SANDWICH. I moved some of the photos around to avoid it. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bedouin victims

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This mass killing of Jews -> This mass killing of Israelis

Not all victims of the Re'im music festival massacre were Jewish.

"Twenty-one Bedouin Israelis were murdered in the Hamas massacre of October 7... the rest were murdered from zero distance during Hamas’s lethal raid on Israeli towns and at the Nova festival in Re’im." ^[1]

Bitspectator (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Rainsage (talk) 03:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion was unambiguous.

This mass killing of Jews -> This mass killing of Israelis

I wanted to change the statement on the left side of the arrow to the statement on the right side of the arrow. I provided an RS and justification for why I wanted to make this change.

My suggestion was already completed by the time you labeled it Not Done. User Dylanvt made the change: [1]

Please tell me why you labeled this Not Done. Bitspectator (talk) 13:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it doesn't say "This mass killing of Jews" or "This mass killing of Israelis" anywhere in the article Rainsage (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion was already completed by the time you labeled it Not Done. User Dylanvt made the change: [1]

What part of that did you not understand? Bitspectator (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As noted previously, the phrase in question was removed by another editor, so I am closing this request. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 06:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oops thanks. Looks I forgot to close it. Rainsage (talk) 17:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-785519

"Civilians", "murder" and "hostages"

Since some of my edits were undone I think it's prudent to talk about the POV, editorialized and inaccurate language used in this article at present. Right in the lead we have the following:

As part of the attack, 364 civilians were murdered and many more wounded

None of the cited news articles call these 364 dead "civilians". Only some individual cases are called civilians. The BBC states that of the killed, 9 were US citizens, 1 a Canadian citizen, up to 10 UK citizens, 2 French citizens, 20 Thai citizens, 10 Nepalese citizens, 2 Filipino citizens, 1 German citizen, 1 Cambodian citizen, 1 Chinese-Israeli (let's count her as Chinese for this purpose). In total 57. I have excluded the mere missing cases. Therefore around 300 of those killed were Israelis. Do any sources say whether these people were members of the IDF or not? Due to the high conscription rate in Israel, of which only ultra-Orthodox and Arab Israelis are exempt, it would be false to label all 300 of these dead Israels "civilians" when, as members of the IDF, they were not civilians.

The second point here is on the use of the word "murder". Murder is a civilian crime, not a military one. Al-Qassam is Hamas' military wing, and Hamas is at present the only legitimate government of Gaza, having won the 2006 election. And again, a significant number of those killed were not civilians, but members of the IDF. Such killings are not murder. More importantly, we need RS that calls these killings "murders", not US-aligned editorialized newspaper articles.

Finally the word "hostages". Again, when it comes to military personnel, the correct term is prisoners of war. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point about the 364 casualties. Obviously, police officers are not civilians.

As for the use of the word hostages, you'd be correct if any of the kidnapped invidviduals from the music festival were military personnel. But since none were, the word "hostages" is the correct word. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're just showing how much you don't understand, just by the sheer words used in your comment.

Serving in the IDF is indeed mandatory, however only for 2.8 years (males) or 2 years (females). Once someone finishes his/her mandatory service he goes back to being a civilian, just like you wouldn't call an 80 years old retired cop a police personnel. The overwhelming majority of nova goers were not serving in the IDF nor the Israeli police at the time, therefore they were unarmed civilians. I again urge you to understand the difference between a civilian and a military personnel before commenting unbiased claims. And the word hostages fits perfectly, just like the people on the planes in the 9.11 attacks. 2A00:A040:1A3:A23D:6992:DF7A:36:7C3A (talk) 00:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

POV & unsourced language removed

Of the sources provided, none of them mentioned rape or torture, so I have removed those words. I have also removed the "by Hamas" phrase, when it's contradicted by the parts of this article detailing how friendly fire could have resulted in some deaths. I have also removed "murder" as a POV word, however, it is used in some of the sources listed, and for that reason, I'm okay with restoring it. JasonMacker (talk) 19:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-785519

[1]